She is dying, PLEASE help!

[smokesalot420]

Pictures of my plant, which I now know has fungus gnats.

Lights off:








Lights on:



Day 34 of flower, Cheese clone
DWC, 3.5 gallon with 4 airstones
PH 5.7-5.9
TDS=1030

The fan leaves higher on the plant look very bad, some lower leaves have fell off already. The weird thing is that some of the mid leaves look fine.... I will fill out the form in my next post to give you all more info, please help my dying girl!

 

[blackone]

Fungus gnats don't do damage like that.
Looks more like a nute issue to me.

 

[smokesalot420]

cont

cont

HYDROPONICS

How long has this problem been going on? 2-3 weeks
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)-no
What system are you running? DWC
What STRAIN are you growing? Cheese
What was the establishing technique? Clone
What is the age of your plants? 34 days flowering
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
How tall are the plants? 17"
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?Flower
What Technique are you using?LST twice
What substrate/medium are you using? Rockwool
What is the Water temperature?66
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Tan
What Nutrient's are you using?Fox Farms Grow Big/Big Bloom/Tiger Bloom/and Tri-pack Soluables, Botanicare Cal/Mag
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* 10ml Big Bloom, 6ml Tiger Bloom, 6ml Cal/Mag, 1/4 tsp soluable (Cha-Ching at the moment), 5ml hydroguard per gallon
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)every 3rd to 4th day
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)every 3rd to 4th day
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?1st week flower
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using?1030, gradually got to this point
What is the pH of the "Tank"?5.5-6.0
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment?
When was your last watering?everyday top off with water
What is your water temps?66
When was your last feeding change?today
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?every week
What size bulb are you using?400W HPS
What is the distance to the canopy?12"
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?45-55
What is the canopy temperature?78
What is the Day/Night Temp? 79-68
What is the current Air Flow?
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?Always running, 3 4" passive intakes, 1 4" Vortex 178 CFM (I think)
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? 2 small fans blowing on canopy, 2 fans blowing up from floor
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?RO
Are you using water from a water softener?
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched. NO
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? Neem oil today
Are plant's infected with pest's. Fungus Gnats found today, a lot living in my rockwool

I also used a small amount of Bushmaster a couple weeks ago, Im growing in a cabinet.... The plant doesn't smell as much as I think a cheese plant would, but since this is my first grow Im not sure..... The plant seems very dried out and some leaves are brittle while some of the middle leaves only show what looks like is Calcium deficiency. Again, Im a noob so I dont know, but would the gnats eating my roots cause all these defs?

What can I do this late in flowering to kill them? If I spray my root zone with neem oil will I be smoking neem? I was going to pull the plants around 60-65 into flowering and was going to flush in 2 weeks or so.... what can/should I do?

Same plant 1 week ago:

 

[tree&leaf]

Your plant is showing classic signs of ph fluctuation and the nutrient lock outs caused by it.

Can you confirm that the FoxFarm nutrients you're using are the hydroponic versions and not the soil based ones? Because if you're using the wrong versions, they could account for your ph fluctuations.

Also, as you're growing hydroponically, and this is your first time, it perhaps wasn't wise to try and do so using predominantly organic nutrients. Chemical/mineral based nutrients in hydro makes things a lot simpler and easier for both you and the plant.

The colour of your roots may also be a problem, but that depends on what nutrients you've been feeding them - their colour may just be a result of the organic nutrients or it might be something worse.

 

[smokesalot420]

I did have a lot of fluctuation of PH earlier in the grow, it would climb a point a day and I would correct it.... In flowering it was a little low, at times dropping to 5.0 for a night and I would correct it back to 5.8 or 5.9.
Is there anything I can do now? I transferred it into a bigger container a couple weeks ago which slowed the fluctuations a lot. The plant is still drinking, though not as much as before, and the TDS still drops everyday. Should I harvest this plant soon or should I pull it and Hash it? I really wanted to complete a grow, but I would rather do whatever you all think is best..... Pull and bomb my chamber for bugs or let the plant TRY to finish? Please help.... it's my birthday if I can get some sympathy help LOL.

 

[tree&leaf]

Well first up, Happy Birthday!

Secondly, you need to start answering questions, starting with the one I asked in my first post - which versions of FoxFarm nutrients are you using?

I suspect the ph is fluctuating because of the micro-organism population in your DWC tank, as they multiply and consume organic elements - the ph fluctuates, so the first thing you need to do is stabilise your ph. To do that, you need to stop adding them to your tank and stop feeding them so they multiply!

Whilst it's quite possible to grow using hydro organics, it does require some experience and knowledge to do so and is fairly advanced for a new grower to understand. Even very experienced growers have problems growing organically in hydro vecause of this ph problem they encounter.

 

[smokesalot420]

First off, thanks for the well wishes and reply, I appreciate it!

Well, the bottles I have do not say hydroponic on them, but when I purchased them the owner said it was for hydro...... In fact, every hydro store that I have been to only have the kind that I bought, none stock the hydro stuff. I have since called the hydro store I bought the stuff at and he said he has never heard of any other "version" of the Fox-Farm products I bought. So this may in fact be the problem I am having..... After looking at my bottle and the Fox Farm website I can see that they do in fact have a hydro version available of the Grow Big, do I have to order this since the 5 places in the 3 towns around me dont stock it?

Also, what do you reccomend me do with the plant? Let it keep going to my planned 55-65 days, harvest it early because she was damaged/stressed, or pull it now and hash it and start over? I have stopped the fluctuations and stopped using the Big Bloom, will this help or am I hopeless? Thanks again

 

[tree&leaf]

After looking at my bottle and the Fox Farm website I can see that they do in fact have a hydro version available of the Grow Big, do I have to order this since the 5 places in the 3 towns around me dont stock it?

As I said earlier, I think your problems all stem from the use of the wrong type of nutrients in your DWC setup which is what caused your ph to rise and fall. As a fairly new grower and inexperienced at growing, I'd strongly suggest you stay away from anything labelled organic in a hydro setup. You can use organics in hydro, but it requires knowledge and experience, so perhaps go back to it when you have more experience.

So, if you intend on continuing growing with DWC or any other hydro method, the first thing you need to do is invest in some chemical/mineral based nutrients and put the organic Fox Farm ones to one side. Which ones to get depends on what's available in your area, Canna and GH do good ranges, but I'd stay away from Advanced Nutrients, they're expensive for what they are because you need so many of them.

Using appropriate chemical/mineral based nutrients will make your life and the plants life a lot easier.

Also, what do you reccomend me do with the plant?

If it were me, I'd try and correct her and finish her off to the right time. It seems a shame to come this far and then give up.

First thing I'd do is dump the res, clean it out and sterilise it. Then refill with ph'd RO water and flush the rockwool a couple of times, dump this water. Then refill with more ph'd RO water and a 1/2 - 3/4 dose of your new chemical nutrient and see how she responds to that.

Your harvest time will be retarded due to the problems, so you need to factor that in to the total flowering time.

I have stopped the fluctuations and stopped using the Big Bloom, will this help or am I hopeless? Thanks again

It'll help stop things getting worse, but you still need to fix the underlying problem before the plant will recover its health. That is, that the nutrients you're using are not being made available to the plant for two reasons 1) the ph is not stable 2) the organic elements in your nutrients need breaking down into plant useable forms by micro-organisms and it's the presence of these in your tank that's destabilising the ph.

Using a chemical based nutrient that is immediately available to the plant avoids both these problems.

 

[stinkyattic]

How often do you change out the res in general? A large plant in a smallish system will require more frequent total res dumps. I'd suggest a weekly res swap schedule.
Also you DO need calmag if you run RO water. Add it first, to bring your base to 250ppm, and then add your bloom nute on top of that. I'm going to second Canna Aqua as a fabulous and easy hydro nute to run. It's well buffered in a correct pH range as well, which will make your life easier.

Although the plant definitely suffered at some point in the past from pH flux, looks like up to about 3 weeks ago, your more recent growth around the buds looks quite healthy. You should be on schedule to harvest within the next month. Just maintain a nice steady pH and feed strength, run your calmag, and get ready to do your final flush soon. The damage will not heal, and the plant will certainly start to look even more scruffy as it gets close to the end of its life- this is normal, and will occur even if you run perfect conditions until harvest.
Nice Cheese; looks like you will have a nice belated birthday stash!

 

[smokesalot420]

Thank you Tree and Stinky, your replies were very helpful to me. I have been looking at my grow log ( I keep a paper log of everything, I check ph 2 times a day as well as TDS) and have noticed a lot of fluctuations.... Some days the PH changes by a whole point from 5.8 to 6.8 for example.... I knew going into this that growing organics in DWC was harder, but I figured that if I was diligent and checked PH 2 times a day I could fix the problem.... what I didnt realize was that it doesnt matter if Im doing twice as much work, what matters is that the plants cant handle PH fluctuations of a point or more cause it will damage the plant from shock. I am going to have to rethink my grow a bit.....
BTW thanks for the advice on how to add the cal/mag, I was never sure if I was using a good amount or not!

 

[tree&leaf]

I think you need to decide in your own mind whether you want to grow hydro or organically, there are pluses and minuses to both methods. Hydro is faster and probably more efficient, but (in my opinion at least) produces inferior results to organic soil growing. Organic soil growing is simpler, less complicated and slower but probably produces better results - if grown properly.

You're still learning what works best for you, so experiment with hydro DWC with chemical based nutrients from someone like Canna, or start learning more about organic soil growing and what's required and perhaps have a go at that as well. Then decide which method you prefer and which method produces the best results for you and your situation.

There is no right or wrong way to grow only what works best for you, your situation, your setup and your particular strain and requirements. So, experiment, have fun and find out what works and what doesn't.

 

[stinkyattic]

A larger res volume as compared to plant biomass will slow fluctuations and allow you to stay on top of them better. This is just a general rule; hydro-organics does add additional challenges, but with any hydro system, an adequate reservoir for the weight of plant that it is meant to support is important. There is a user around here somewhere named Weedhound who has a whole slew of grow logs over at canncom. She struggled with burly plants in DWC (res too small for root mass, led to water chem problems and eventual root rot) for a while and ended up building a system that could be used atop a large livestock feed tub. That may not be the solution to your problems, but it's an educational read. Your plant looks like a good size for that system, but I know firsthand what a voracious feeder that Cheese is, and it doesn't surprise me that the water chem is difficult to stabilise.

 

[killabrown420]

I noticed you said all this happened ~2-3 weeks ago, and you used bushmaster ~2 weeks ago. On top of everything else already mentioned, Bushmaster gives a warning on the label about using it in hydroponic gardens. I think because your nutrient levels were so high it had an adverse reaction. When using bushmaster your supposed to cut down on nutes, and for some strains run w/ straight water. I think you went a bit overboard w/ nutes and additives on your first grow. I know from experience less is sometimes more when doing DWC. Use a bigger container and less nutes next time. Let the plants tell you what they need. Once you get a couple more grows under your belt you'll get a feel for how much to feed as well as frequency between feedings.

Good luck! If nothing else, make hash, or butter and try again.

 

[neuroherb]

Yea if you want to get a grip on Hydro, Weedhounds logs would be a great place to start. She helped me work out my NFT system and I would still atribute my hydro results to her help.

 

[smokesalot420]

Wow awesome responses, thank you all for the input and knowledge, for that is why I am here, to learn! I change and rinse out the res every week and replace with fresh nutes weekly. I forgot to mention that a few weeks ago I thought my plant was getting rootbound in the 2 gallon container, so I transported it into a 3.5 gallon res to finish flowering.

I am currently growing 3 Cannalope Haze seedlings in soil, trying to go organic, and I also have a Blue Cheese day 18 flowering. Black Domina and Strawberry Cough clones that I am growing in soil will go into flower this week so I am trying to grow with DWC and soil both to see what I like. I am growing for quality, not quantity, for this is only for our personal use. Thank you for all of the recommended reads, I will get on those now!

 

[10k]

great advice all around in this thread, but I feel it's well worth mentioning one thing thats been sorely overlooked.

FUNGUS GNATS ! ! !

Someone said that fungus gnats cant cause such plant damage, which is 'seriously' wrong information. Fungus gnats, if the infestation is full blown serious can and DO cause this kind of plant damage from the root damage and disease their larvae bring to the grow. If you have rockwool that is full of larvae, than the chances are this is 100% the cause of your troubles. Damaged roots will cause all sorts of symptoms which mimick nutritional disorders...because they ARE nutritional disorders brought on by the plants nute uptake being hampered by the ongoing root system armageddon that comes along with a bad fungus gnat infestation.

Fungus gnats should NEVER be taken lightly or disregarded.

my two cents,
10k

 

[smokesalot420]

Thanks 10k!

Since I found the gnats, I have started a neem oil spray schedule for every 3-4 days, lightly spraying the rockwool.

I also bought some Gnatrol, but am unsure if I should use it being 3-4 weeks out from harvest. I have heard some plants dont respond well to the Gnatrol so am weary of using it at this point. Should I remove the leaves that are dying/dead? Leaves with ore then 50% damage or let them be?

Thanks again for the help everyone, me and my plants truely appreciate it

 

[stinkyattic]

One of the simplest things you can do to stop fungus gnats is go around your grow area looking for standing water or soggy medium. Eliminate ALL puddles or mucky places, and if your system sits on the floor, check that moisture is not trapped underneath.
Close to harvest, you can put up yellow sticky traps on clothes pins to catch the flying adults. But eliminating their preferred breeding areas is the easiest way to rid yourself of those pests.

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

the guy that im teaching to grow had a really nasty fungus gnat infestation, and it was so bad that he had a hard time breathing when going into his grow. as money was short the most he could do at the time was to get some , well actually alot!!, of no pest strips and put them all about.

he layed a strip per plant and hung strips in between the plants themselves from the ceiling (so needless to say it was a shit load of strips but it goes to show how bad the infestation really was). believe me i understand how aggressive a campaign against these things have to be, but they didn't seem to affect the roots at all. they stayed at the top of the soil, i would say about an inch deep even if that.

i went to inspect and i didnt see any deficiencies of any kind to speak of, nothing necrotic or discolored, and all seemed fine with the plants up until harvest. he was using some sort of manure based soil though, so i am guessing that, thats how things got started. the plants were rooted in rapid rooter plugs first, and then transported to the flowering site. during transport and while in veg there was no sign of any pests.

so i was wondering, for the future, since were going to be using rockwool this go-around, does that have any affect on the severity of an out brake? does using rockwool give them a "foothold" IYO?

 

[smokesalot420]

I am growing in DWC, hydro so my whole res is water.... I have 2-4 airstones in each res depending on how many gallons it holds, so my rockwool is indeed a breeding ground for them. I think in soil they say you can put a layer of sand on top of the soil or stuff like that to stop their life cycle, and I have placed rockwool covers on them to stop the life-cycle since I am in hydro. I dont have standing water anywhere in my cabinet, but being in Northern Cali it gets damp every morning outside this time of year, so they may living outside and coming in now that it is getting colder...

Thanks again for the replies!

P.S. Should I strip the damaged leaves or leave them? (Some look pretty bad)