Severe spotted leaf necrosis and yellowing! pH problems? Deficiencies? *pics*

[blueberryfarmer]

Hello all. I have two plants that are about two weeks into flowering. One is severely affected with the described symptoms, the other is barely affected at all. The symptoms include severe brown spots on the affected leaves, beginning with the oldest growth and growing and spreading to the youngest growth. The lowest leaves also are yellowing significantly and dying around the edges, which looks very much like nitrogen and phosphorus deficiencies. But the aggressive spotting is spreading very quickly, then is followed by the yellowing and death of the leaves. Both plants have been treated the same, except when they were transplanted prior to flowering. I ran out of soil and had to run to the store to get some extra, and i therefore topped the better-looking plant off with the store-bought seedling mix. I believe that this may have had extra fertilizers which are nourishing the better plant, as the one with the severe spotting and yellowing also has smaller and pale new growth. This leads me to believe that the problem is that the plant is just really hungry and needs more ferts. I originally thought it was bad fertilizers (mine were really old and stored in warm conditions) so i bought the complete package of Foxfarm nutes. I've fed them twice at fairly low concentrations, with moderate improvement to the tops of the plants, but little slowing of the spotting and yellowing. Do they need to be fed more aggressively? I've checked the runoff pH and the worse plant is right around 6, with the better plant in the mid-low 5's... which is strange. Anyway, here is the infirmary help form to give more details:

Strain of Mj? Blueberry, by Grower's Choice (?)
Hydroponic or soil? Soil
From seed or clone? Seed
Age of plant in question? Approx 4 months
What stage (Veg/Flower; how many days into)? Flowering, approx 2 weeks
Medium (Soil, Rockwool, Hydroton etc.)? Soil
Container/Pot size? 1-2 gallon? Not sure
Have they been transplanted, if so how long ago? Approx 1 month
If soil, composition ratios (peat moss, perilite, vermiculite etc.)? 2:1 Perlite/Vermiculite to Peat (mostly)
Water runoff Ph? Between 5-6 on the BETTER plant?? Around 6 on the worse plant.
Nutrients added? Original soil had many organic amendments, recently transplanted soil had no amendments. Feeding now with Foxfarm package: Tiger Bloom, Big Bloom, Open Sesame
Ratios of nutrients (N% P% K%)?
Feeding schedule? Every other watering, slightly less than recommended concentration
When were they last fed/watered? Last night
How are you determining when to feed/water (weight, wilting, etc.)? When pot is completely dry... plants never wilt
TDS/EC/PPM?
Tap/RO/Distilled water? Distilled water
Ph before and after adding nutrients? 7, after nutes i adjust to about 6
Is your Ph equipment properly calibrated? Using test solution and chart
Light intensity/Age of bulb/Wattage? 250w HPS, New since about 3 weeks ago
Distance to the canopy? 8"
Temps at canopy? 75-80
Temps at root zone or reservoir? 70-ish
Day/Night temps (Min.-Max.)?
Current air flow (CFM)? 130cfm, hindered by 94cfm carbon scrubber
Is there air blowing directly onto plant? Yes
Using CO2? No
Relative humidity? 30%
Growing technique (Scrog, Sog, Supercropping etc.)? Moderate LST
Has plant recently been pruned, clones taken, fimmed or pinched? No
Pests? No
Chemicals used to irradicate?
If so,When?

Here are a couple images of the severely affected plant:





I can get more pictures when the light goes on in about 3.5 hours from now.. I can get pics of the healthier plant for comparison, if needed...

This problem is spreading fast on my nice, bushy plant! I'm afraid of reducing my yields due to this setback. Please help by providing any info you can.. thank you!

 

[hogwild]

from these symptoms id say its a ph issue, keep watering with ph 6.0 water, be sure to let your water evaporate all chlorine first, my water has high chlorine content and it will do that to the plants as well.I'm no expert, and im sure there will be other opinions to help you with your problem. Good luck.

 

[blueberryfarmer]

I've been feeding only lightly and every time i fertilize them i water them with the distilled water to the point that the water is almost draining out of the pots. Then i add the fertilizer-water mix. Between these feedings i water heavily with the distilled water so that they drain through somewhat. Basically, what i'm trying to say is that they've been watered with this water quite consistently and thoroughly in an attempt to fix the problem and it is not improving, only seeming to get worse. I'm still open to the pH problem argument... it just seems unlikely that flushing them more with water will help.. anyone have further support for this argument? Others? Thanks for the help.

 

[Guest]

hey bbf, if your ph is truly high 5's to low 6's (the runoff that is)that sounds about rite in general for the type of soil u mention. i would tend to beleive that they are probably hungry, but i would feel more comfortable myself with the ph readings from a decent electronic meter. it truly is an invaluble tool for indoor growing. i know they sound a lil expensive but if i was gonna have only one measurment tool, that would be it. saves alot of hair pullin and head scratchin. lol.
the fact that the plants that "may" have recieved a fertilized potting soil and are doing better than the problem plantywould make me go hhmmmmmmmm! good luck with em.

 

[MTF-Sandman]

They're 4 months old and in 1-2 gallon pots? That'd be the first thing I'd change...also sounds like you're overwatering and underfeeding them. You need to add some magnesium to the diet as well...

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Thanks for the input everyone. So far it sounds like they need more nutes... so i'll give them some asap. I've got some epsom salts that i can add to the mix to supplement them with some magnesium. They're definately not being overwatered... i water them a lot when i do water, but they dry out completely before the next watering. Also, the 1-2 gallon size was an estimate.. its definately an appropriate size, considering the size of the plants. I do have some experience, but i haven't encountered these types of problems before. Anyway, if anyone has any other ideas i'd like to hear them (or arguments supporting current ones)... thanks! I'll update if things change.. lights go on soon and i'm anxious to see how they're doing.

 

[Guest]

bbf, i hope ya can get it under control in short order. the thing i'd like to commend you on is the fact that you thank people for their time and advice but more importently that you don't rely on one opinion, but ask for opinions on the opinions. it is ,after all is said and done, your grow. good work and good luck dude.

get data. decipher data. use data. you'll do well.

 

[hogwild]

how are you testing your ph? Your best bet is getting a truncheon or hanna 98129. If your convinced ph is not the problem and your adding distilled id say they might need some food.

 

[Jesusbuiltmygro]

Hey man 4 months in 1-2 gallons those plants are probably rootbound and hence showing many deficiencies. PH would make sense, but it's kind of doubtful the problem would take over out of the blue if it was was PH and you haven't change you water. Seems to me it's much more likely rootbound based on your info .. which was good by the way. Peat moss has a tendancy to go acidic so make sure you measuring your run off. With soil it's more important to know the runoff PH than it is the source PH. A PH near 6 is good for soil runoff it should have to be exact or anything.

Take one of your plants out of it's pot and inspect the roots. Simple as that. It's not too hard and during periods of stress the root zone is commonly overlooked. My bet is you'll find your roots are wrapped all around the rootball and actually growing back into the root ball in many cases. In extreme cases you can actually see root tips on the surface of the soil that havw grown up through the top of the soil desperately looking for room to grow.

To keep a plant in a small pot for long periods of time you have to occasionally take the plant out of the pot and prune the root/root ball. In the cases of moms you can let them get root bound to slow growth then actually aggressively prune the plant and chop the root ball. For growing plants such as yours you should just trim the roots surrounding the root ball and replant in a lager container. Since you're in flowing you have a big problem because the plant will not grow much in the way of new roots while it bloom (needs to be in veg).

You can still prune the roots and loosen and aerate the root ball to help reduce your problem. If it is in fact a root bound situation. Inspection will tell you and it's not too much trouble. I recommend doing it while the plant is dry to make it easier and of course use a spade or such around hte inside of the container to get the plant out. Cut the roots and poke some holes through out the root ball to get the plant to grow new roots. A root stimulation additive might also help. I'm not sure just how active root development is in bloom, but from what I've seen and hear it's minimal.

Going back to veg would suck unless you don't already have clones. If you don't have clones, I'd go prune the roots, go back to veg and ensure your plant has the root health to make it through bloom without major stress.

If I had clones I'd prune and aerate the soil as I said and then basically go for it and hope for the best knowing that the pruning most likely will help some, but that the yield def will suffer, and keeping them in veg for another 2-4 weeks could mess up the timing for the next batch.

The safe route is probably going back to veg after a transplant unless you have a batch of health clones ready to replace them. The problem will just get worse if they are root bound and that long in that small container is pretty likely to be root bound.

Good luck

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Hey man 4 months in 1-2 gallons those plants are probably rootbound and hence showing many deficiencies. PH would make sense, but it's kind of doubtful the problem would take over out of the blue if it was was PH and you haven't change you water. Seems to me it's much more likely rootbound based on your info .. which was good by the way. Peat moss has a tendancy to go acidic so make sure you measuring your run off. With soil it's more important to know the runoff PH than it is the source PH. A PH near 6 is good for soil runoff it should have to be exact or anything.

Take one of your plants out of it's pot and inspect the roots. Simple as that. It's not too hard and during periods of stress the root zone is commonly overlooked. My bet is you'll find your roots are wrapped all around the rootball and actually growing back into the root ball in many cases. In extreme cases you can actually see root tips on the surface of the soil that havw grown up through the top of the soil desperately looking for room to grow.

To keep a plant in a small pot for long periods of time you have to occasionally take the plant out of the pot and prune the root/root ball. In the cases of moms you can let them get root bound to slow growth then actually aggressively prune the plant and chop the root ball. For growing plants such as yours you should just trim the roots surrounding the root ball and replant in a lager container. Since you're in flowing you have a big problem because the plant will not grow much in the way of new roots while it bloom (needs to be in veg).

You can still prune the roots and loosen and aerate the root ball to help reduce your problem. If it is in fact a root bound situation. Inspection will tell you and it's not too much trouble. I recommend doing it while the plant is dry to make it easier and of course use a spade or such around hte inside of the container to get the plant out. Cut the roots and poke some holes through out the root ball to get the plant to grow new roots. A root stimulation additive might also help. I'm not sure just how active root development is in bloom, but from what I've seen and hear it's minimal.

Going back to veg would suck unless you don't already have clones. If you don't have clones, I'd go prune the roots, go back to veg and ensure your plant has the root health to make it through bloom without major stress.

If I had clones I'd prune and aerate the soil as I said and then basically go for it and hope for the best knowing that the pruning most likely will help some, but that the yield def will suffer, and keeping them in veg for another 2-4 weeks could mess up the timing for the next batch.

The safe route is probably going back to veg after a transplant unless you have a batch of health clones ready to replace them. The problem will just get worse if they are root bound and that long in that small container is pretty likely to be root bound.

Good luck

Thanks for the suggestions. I think that the pots are actually an appropriate size, i just misjudged them when i estimated their volume. I transplanted a couple of weeks before flowering and i think the pots are sufficient to carry them right through. My initial soilless mix before transplanting had many organic amendments in it, but the mix i transplanted into had no amendments and i'm thinking that contributed to the deficiencies that i believe i'm observing.

Anyway, an update so far: I fertilized last night with a stronger mix and this morning the severely affected plant looked somewhat greener... I guess i can't expect a huge change in only about 9 hours or so. The lights come on in another hour, so i'll see what's changed by then. I really dont want to see any more spotting.. almost all big fan leaves are affected now and if i lose those before things are fixed i think it will reduce my plant's overall vigour and yield. Here's hoping! More input and suggestions are welcomed... Thanks everyone

 

[coolx]

hope you get the problem soved quickly cos I have the exact same symptoms, but I'm growing hydro on coco mats ... I've been thinking I'm overwatering and undefeeding cos I got the plants from a friend last week and I don't know what ppm's he was going at, and I can't get hold of him. I know he does like to go high though, and I don't really know how often to water them.

 

[Guest]

Looks like a nutrient lock out. Stop adding more and flush your soil w/ some lock out solutions, let dry out a little, then fert half strenght!!!

 

[Guest]

look for mynamestitch has a whole forum on sick plants lots of pics

 

[topherfrog]

P,Mg,Cal uptake is decreased as your ph goes below 6.5
your problem can fit into all three of those def. catagories
go look on your soil and nutes for calcium.
if you dont have it go buy some molasses 2$ has calcium. 1teaspoon every once in awhile.
I have 1gal pots at 6-7 weeks and my plants are 9inches...very bushy. i cut my first male to scope out the roots. very bound. the roots wraped the pot all the way to the top of the soil. I will transplant as soon as I find the rest of my males to 3 gal.
The OG forum always told me. 1ft per gal. 1 foot in veg. 3foot in flower. I grow by it.

 

[coolx]

Looking at MyNameStitch's page, that's exactly manganese def. which is I think the first element locked out as your PH goes higher. In my case, in hydro, my Ph is too near 6.2 too often, keeps going up from 5.8. So like someone said, it's most likely a PH issue and not too bad as you've got just the one symptom right now. I'm lowering my Ph a little - see what happens in the next few days.

Scroll down to see his pic of Mn def.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688

 

[MTF-Sandman]

Looking at MyNameStitch's page, that's exactly manganese def.

No it's not. A manganese def (very rare) shows on newer leaves since it's an immobile nutrient. The affected leaves are the older ones.

What size are those pots BBF?
Is there any way you can get some more accurate PH results?

It'll take the plants at least a few days to really start showing improvements from the higher nute strength, but the spotting should stop spreading within 3-5 days as the plants health continues to improve.

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Getting better!

Getting better!

I suppose it's time for an update. Thanks for the informative replies and responses, everyone. I agree with MTF-Sandman in that the problem is likely not a Manganese deficiency. It looks similar, but the youngest leaves are not affected. The problem for me occurs in the older leaves and works its way up. I believe the pots themselves are 3 gallon, but i'm not really certain. I'm sure they're big enough, though. The best way to test the pH that i have is to test the runoff with a testing solution and comparing it to the chart. I've decided that the pH must be a factor; it is probably low 5's on the better plant and high 5's on the worse plant. Strange, eh?
So i've added some lime and fishbone meal to the soil and have been watering that in to help with the possible calcium deficiency. I also fertilized very strongly about a week ago. Since then, the problems do not seem to be getting much worse, and overall the plants are getting greener and seem healthier. I've also raised the pH of the nute mixture slightly and now adjust the pH of the distilled water when i do water. I'm also going to start using tap water rather than distilled water, to include the extra minerals and such. Overall, the plant seems to be getting better. There isn't much progression of the issue, for which i'm very grateful. There weren't many big leaves left to keep it going! I'll post pics later tonight when the light goes on. For now I'll post a couple i took a few days ago when things were quite bad.