Selfing... how far is too far?

[xinox]

I was under the impression an S1 was a similar outcome to the generation of seeds the mother came from.

Depend of your mother. She could be anything, from a polyhybrid to an inbred line. So the result of a S1 will be pretty different. You say that because again it work genetically like a F2.


For example if you made a F1 cross, to make F2 you can take two very different parents, in that case making F2 will reveal a lot of new phenotype (and probably dominant trait) and won't be very different from F1, especially if you cross two line that are highly heterozygous. But if you want to stabilize you will take a male and female that are the closest you can find. In that case, that you take a male that is close to the female, or that you selfed the female, it's pretty the same.



But then in your S1 or F2 you will get more diversity, because the recessive pheno that show up, or no deiversity if your parent line is pure. In the first case you will have to go to F3 to have more stability again, and it's all in the choice of parents.


When Elmer Bud said S1 are great to see if a line is stable, indeed. If you don't get much recessive pheno then yes the line is "stable", homozygous. But if a line is not you will find plant that are "purified" genetically from trait you don't want, but to try them you will have to S1 again to see if this S1 is not also unstable. For exemple let's say you have Aa in your mother, A Is dominant. By selfing you will get AA, Aa and aa. AA will be of course the one to keep for breeding if you want that dominant trait to pass to the progeny.



Also to answer to the question of the topic, which is were we can go by selfing. As i said when you selfed you still get individual with pretty much of the genetics of the parents and other that lost a lot this material, so if your line if heterozygous and your selection is good you can go pretty far. In a way S1 are nt so much destructive that go though classic inbred, it's just quicker to get what you want if you can make proper selection. But as in inbred line, except if you can grow a lot of plant to find that rare perfect specimen, you will probably decrease vigor pretty fast also, but it's the same problem with inbreeding.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Depend of your mother. She could be anything, from a polyhybrid to an inbred line. So the result of a S1 will be pretty different. You say that because again it work genetically like a F2.


For example if you made a F1 cross, to make F2 you can take two very different parents, in that case making F2 will reveal a lot of new phenotype (and probably dominant trait) and won't be very different from F1, especially if you cross two line that are highly heterozygous. But if you want to stabilize you will take a male and female that are the closest you can find. In that case, that you take a male that is close to the female, or that you selfed the female, it's pretty the same.



But then in your S1 or F2 you will get more diversity, because the recessive pheno that show up, or no deiversity if your parent line is pure. In the first case you will have to go to F3 to have more stability again, and it's all in the choice of parents.


When Elmer Bud said S1 are great to see if a line is stable, indeed. If you don't get much recessive pheno then yes the line is "stable", homozygous. But if a line is not you will find plant that are "purified" genetically from trait you don't want, but to try them you will have to S1 again to see if this S1 is not also unstable. For exemple let's say you have Aa in your mother, A Is dominant. By selfing you will get AA, Aa and aa. AA will be of course the one to keep for breeding if you want that dominant trait to pass to the progeny.



Also to answer to the question of the topic, which is were we can go by selfing. As i said when you selfed you still get individual with pretty much of the genetics of the parents and other that lost a lot this material, so if your line if heterozygous and your selection is good you can go pretty far. In a way S1 are nt so much destructive that go though classic inbred, it's just quicker to get what you want if you can make proper selection. But as in inbred line, except if you can grow a lot of plant to find that rare perfect specimen, you will probably decrease vigor pretty fast also, but it's the same problem with inbreeding.

G `day X

The AA , Aa and aa are where the 1:2:1 ratio comes from .
But , like I said how many to see that ratio expressed perfectly ?

re Sam selfing several gens and finding inbreeding depression . Inbreeding an IBL should hit that wall faster . One plant was the Turkish CBD plant . Was it homozygous ? I have friends who tell me they are at S5 - S6 and still good vigor .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[Guy Brush]

Every time you self a plant you literally loose half of the genetic code.
From an F1 for example...
S1=50% of the original genetics
S2=25% of the original genetics
S3=12.5% of the original genetics
S4=6.25% of the original genetics
S5-3.125% of the original genetics


This is not a way to go about breeding IBLs, IMO. Not only do you loose the bad genes, you loose the good ones as well.

So this means after around s10 there would be no 'genetics' left at all? :-D

 

[GMT]

Imagine the contents of a single chain of DNA are like half a deck of cards. Shuffled and dealt. If you breed an F1 or F2, then you get a new pack of cards and repeat; creating a "new" deck of cards. This new deck may have 0, 1 or 2 ace of spades.
When Selfing, after dealing the first half of the deck, the rest of the cards are neither dealt nor thrown away. Instead the original cards are regathered, re-shuffled, and dealt again. Again, the cards received over both deals, could include 0, 1 or 2 ace of spades. The only difference is that if it has 2 cards the same, they are identical. One doesn't have any damage, alterations or mutations that the other doesn't.
Beneficial when looking to keep rather than eliminate genes.

 

[JetLife175]

Thank you, for bringing this up. Most people think the S1 is a copy.

SkunkmanSam claims to have done several generations of selfing. He said vigor went down rapidly and eventually ended up sterile.

Im wondering if this is the reason the TK clone rarely produces s1 seed.

 

[JetLife175]

Oh and to add onto this topic...

I’ve worked with some clones for personal use for quite some time now. One being the original Josh OG cutting. I’ve found countless stellar s1 plants and two of those I have worked all the way to s5. I haven’t had issues selfing any of the plants yet. Some vigor has been lost but it isn’t a detrimental loss. I’ll have to get a couple of those s5 seeds popped and see what comes of it as I’ve only germ tested them. I am still finding great plants in each generation.

 

[clearheaded]

IT can be observed in OG assuming many are just bagseed or S1 of OG OG. there is biker og X tahoe og or ghost ogXsfv og. anyway think that has all been cleared up.

an interesting thing to consider is the intersex expression in particular sativa nld cultivars. that S1 happens naturally and very possible happens for many generations in small wild populations. ie 1 plant selfs produces primarily female seeds with potentially strong intersex traits and creates a population with very few males would the population then die off? if S1 had high probability of producing infertile runty offspring one would think it would of been selected against in the evolutionary process ie why would a stressed(or one that grew longer because of no fertilization) plant produce male flowers for what we assume to actually reproduce. but if that reproduction actually was worse for the proliferation of the species as a whole, logic would dictate that would likely no longer occur as the plants that selfed easily would produce inferior weak and less fertile. Even tho in wild obv still some mixing but still that trait would be more of a negative then a positive and naturally would be very rare and not very common in landraces however NLD tend to have strong intersex traits.

Not defending female seeds just an interesting thought.

 

[Elmer Bud]

G `day CH

In places that have / had a ganja culture true males are rare .
Several tropical lines have only herm males .

I saw it as a youth when farmers started to grow sinsi .
Later flowering and herms in the crops . Why ? well they were the only pollen donators .

The early or regular males were pulled . The herms and late flowering males got to reproduce . That seed found as bag seed in the best flowers grown the following season .
Rinse repeat .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[clearheaded]

nice, ya sort of to the point it doenst make too much sense selfing causes decrease in vigor/infertile plants as one would think it would of naturally been selected against ie would of become tottaly infertile if herm males are only. and in wild populations if stressed male flowers really ended up being a detrimental thing it would of gone away via natural selection. not an expert in ethnobotany or wild cannabis. while bad for us perhaps selfing isnt THAT bad for vigor and fertility as sam suggested. or perhaps depends on if wld nld or nl non drug for how. hard to imagine if one took 1-2 thai female hermi seeds you couldnt start a stand of wild plants that continued to flourish via only selfing intersex plants for 100s of years.

again I am not suggesting female seeds are the best for genetic diversity and overall health of the plant.

old ganja cultures didnt pull males from my understanding? not sure I understand what your point 100%. but assumed you were just eccoing what i was sayin how selfing doesnt appear to lead to tottal infertility as seen in tropical var.

 

[Scrappy-doo]

In nature intersex plants don't only self pollenate they also pollenate other plants in the area. Selfed seeds with lack of vigor would be weeded out through natural selection.

 

[Elmer Bud]

nice, ya sort of to the point it doenst make too much sense selfing causes decrease in vigor/infertile plants as one would think it would of naturally been selected against ie would of become tottaly infertile if herm males are only. and in wild populations if stressed male flowers really ended up being a detrimental thing it would of gone away via natural selection. not an expert in ethnobotany or wild cannabis. while bad for us perhaps selfing isnt THAT bad for vigor and fertility as sam suggested. or perhaps depends on if wld nld or nl non drug for how. hard to imagine if one took 1-2 thai female hermi seeds you couldnt start a stand of wild plants that continued to flourish via only selfing intersex plants for 100s of years.

again I am not suggesting female seeds are the best for genetic diversity and overall health of the plant.

old ganja cultures didnt pull males from my understanding? not sure I understand what your point 100%. but assumed you were just eccoing what i was sayin how selfing doesnt appear to lead to tottal infertility as seen in tropical var.

G `day CH

Some ganja cultures did pull males for seedless .
But also had seed makers and plant sexers .
Hash cultures use male / female / herm doesn`t matter .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[xinox]

G `day X

The AA , Aa and aa are where the 1:2:1 ratio comes from .
But , like I said how many to see that ratio expressed perfectly ?

re Sam selfing several gens and finding inbreeding depression . Inbreeding an IBL should hit that wall faster . One plant was the Turkish CBD plant . Was it homozygous ? I have friends who tell me they are at S5 - S6 and still good vigor .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

You cannot see that ratio perfectly because in reality it depend of how many genes are involved in the trait you want, and also of the new relation of dominance / recessivity that can occur with chromosome recombination during the meiosis. Don't fool yourself, genetic is a lot more complex that what people think.

So this means after around s10 there would be no 'genetics' left at all? :-D

If you red what i said, you would have understan[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]d that what MJPassion said is wrong. It's a common mistake when people forget the chromosome recombination during the meiosis. The genetic loss when selfing will vary between nothing (0%) and 50%, each individual will have it's own percentage. It's even possible, even if it's extremly rare (a chance over billion or something) to get this "0% genetic lost plant" which be the copy of the mother, even is due to the genetic recombination the genetic materiel won't be arrange the same way in the chromosome. To get it you need a pollen that fecund an oocyte that done exactly the same recombination during the meiosis and done opposite pairing of chromosome.
[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All i said with explain some of your observations, for example the vigor in S5 S6. If you keep selecting individual that keep a good genetic integrity (closer of the 0% than 50% in fact) you can keep great vigor and inbred the line quicker than with traditional inbred.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is why when you selfed you will get low vigor and often mutant individual, these one are closer to the 50% lost, and good vigor individual closer to these 0%.[/FONT]

 

[MJPassion]

Oh and to add onto this topic...

I’ve worked with some clones for personal use for quite some time now. One being the original Josh OG cutting. I’ve found countless stellar s1 plants and two of those I have worked all the way to s5. I haven’t had issues selfing any of the plants yet. Some vigor has been lost but it isn’t a detrimental loss. I’ll have to get a couple of those s5 seeds popped and see what comes of it as I’ve only germ tested them. I am still finding great plants in each generation.

I'm curious how many Gems you've found?
Have you found anything better than the S1 parent yet?

 

[Dankdude]

Simply put, the more you self a cultivar, the more repressive traits you unlock (both good and bad) and the more you water down what you were looking for from the original cultivar.

You have just opened Pandora's box.

 

[zif]

In nature intersex plants don't only self pollenate they also pollenate other plants in the area. Selfed seeds with lack of vigor would be weeded out through natural selection.

^ this, and in traditional sinsemilla agriculture, through intentional selection by the farmer.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Simply put, the more you self a cultivar, the more repressive traits you unlock (both good and bad) and the more you water down what you were looking for from the original cultivar.

You have just opened Pandora's box.

G `day DD

Sounds philosophical ?
Tell us about your real world exp with selfing ?

How it worked out for you ?

The pandoras box ref sounds like Chicken Little ...

I read a thread where Tom Hill actually described making a Fem IBL that was an improvement . Selection , selfing and back crossing .

Thanks for sharin

EB

 

[Guy Brush]

If you red what i said, you would have understan[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]d that what MJPassion said is wrong. It's a common mistake when people forget the chromosome recombination during the meiosis. The genetic loss when selfing will vary between nothing (0%) and 50%, each individual will have it's own percentage. It's even possible, even if it's extremly rare (a chance over billion or something) to get this "0% genetic lost plant" which be the copy of the mother, even is due to the genetic recombination the genetic materiel won't be arrange the same way in the chromosome. To get it you need a pollen that fecund an oocyte that done exactly the same recombination during the meiosis and done opposite pairing of chromosome.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All i said with explain some of your observations, for example the vigor in S5 S6. If you keep selecting individual that keep a good genetic integrity (closer of the 0% than 50% in fact) you can keep great vigor and inbred the line quicker than with traditional inbred.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is why when you selfed you will get low vigor and often mutant individual, these one are closer to the 50% lost, and good vigor individual closer to these 0%.[/FONT]

Nice that you clear it up once and for all but if you had read my text carefully you would have seen the smiley in my post. ;-)

 

[MJPassion]

you would have understan[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]d that what MJPassion said is wrong. It's a common mistake when people forget the chromosome recombination during the meiosis. The genetic loss when selfing will vary between nothing (0%) and 50%, each individual will have it's own percentage. It's even possible, even if it's extremly rare (a chance over billion or something) to get this "0% genetic lost plant" which be the copy of the mother, even is due to the genetic recombination the genetic materiel won't be arrange the same way in the chromosome. To get it you need a pollen that fecund an oocyte that done exactly the same recombination during the meiosis and done opposite pairing of chromosome.
[/FONT]

Pardon me but what I said is NOT wrong!
Mendellian math, however simple it is, is the fundamental math used for breeding and it's what most people are taught first.

99% of the time my math, as presented previously in this thread, will be 100% correct for nearly anybody on these boards that are making S1s.
Nobody is testing for homozygosity previous to slappin the silver to the ladies! NOBODY!

 

[zif]

To be fair, your math is presented in a misleading way.

You can only lose 50% of the S0 parent’s alleles, at the very most. Every locus must have one or the other parental allele at every Sn. Lots of loci, although far from a majority, will already be homozygous in the parent, so 50% is really the limit, not the norm.

You can theoretically eliminate (virtually) 100% of heterozygosity, but, that ain’t genes or ‘genetic code’.

Pardon me but what I said is NOT wrong!
Mendellian math, however simple it is, is the fundamental math used for breeding and it's what most people are taught first.

99% of the time my math, as presented previously in this thread, will be 100% correct for nearly anybody on these boards that are making S1s.
Nobody is testing for homozygosity previous to slappin the silver to the ladies! NOBODY!

 

[JetLife175]

I'm curious how many Gems you've found?
Have you found anything better than the S1 parent yet?

Well that’s subjective. There’s been a lot of mediocre plants, some shit plants and ones that definitely rival if not surpass the original cut. The two main s1s I kept solely based on terps. One is pure gasoline/diesel fumes/grease and one is a dead ringer for lemon pledge. They e proved useful trying to impart some of these profiles in some lines I’ve been working. So to me I would say in some aspects absolutely better than mom. I still prefer the original mother to smoke though. So that says something as well