Selfed seeds accurate representation?

[Guest]

Specifically looking at the Trainwreck S1's that are available over at c-bay.

Are selfed seeds an accurate representation of the mom's genetics or will they be degraded? If so, how significantly?

spliffmasta

 

[Brownpants]

Selfing is similair to making F2s, in that you are increasing the variance of the strain because of increases in recessive traits showing up. The more IBL the strain the less variance created when selfing. You will probably still see the pheno show up in the seeds that you are looking for, but it might take twice as many seeds grown out to find it, and there will be alot more variety to choose from. You might find something better than the original mother that was selfed, who knows, just be prepared to grow out alot of seeds.

 

[Guest]

I picked up a pack of them - this isn't the first time Jojorizo has reversed a TW clone. If you search, there are some grow threads & reports on CW. He has also crossed TW x White Widow (Crystal Locomotive) that has had very good reviews; I also want a pack of those next time he posts them.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Brownpants I have been wondering the samething but of course very time I start to do a search for an answer I get side track on something else it nice to find an answer to a question this ez. peace and be safe dequilo

 

[DankBank]

Selfing is similair to making F2s, in that you are increasing the variance of the strain because of increases in recessive traits showing up. The more IBL the strain the less variance created when selfing. You will probably still see the pheno show up in the seeds that you are looking for, but it might take twice as many seeds grown out to find it, and there will be alot more variety to choose from. You might find something better than the original mother that was selfed, who knows, just be prepared to grow out alot of seeds.

Wait a minute here...
I don't agree at all with this information.
If a female plant is forced to produce pollen (let's say using STS)...
and that pollen is applied to the exact same plant to produce seeds, my experience has always been that the offspring will be female (of course... with the ocassional hermie) and also basically identical to the parent. There is a HUGE difference between making S1 beans and making F2s. The variation of F2s will almost always be MUCH greater than that of offspring produced from a "selfing" project.

Let's look at Fet's fem'd Green Giant, for example. I'm sure that if you took two regular Green Giants (one male, one female) and produced F2s, the resulting offspring would vary greatly... because Green Giant is not (as far as I know) stable. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of Fet's fem'd GG's, and they always look extremely similiar. There's a little variation in trichome production, and some produce flowers that are larger than others... but for the most part, if you compare 5 or 10 of them side by side, GG S1s always look nearly identical.
Take care,
db

 

[Guest]

I agree with ya Dank Bank.
I selfed my KC 36.
And the seeds I grew were almost identical to their mum, maybe not quite as vigorous, not a huge difference though.

 

[Guest]

agree and disagree with brown pants, my experience, and lots of pics that i have seen, there can be plenty of variation in selfed populations. selfed plants reveal more of the recessive traits in the line then a F2 population.

a selfed breedin program, will be more stable appearin then the first self. Fets been workin his GG for quite some time has has jojo with the TW S1s. mojo grew the TW S1s, and was very pleased with the plants.

CBF

 

[Guest]

I've grown both Jojo and Fets seeds and think they are good stuff. I've been watching Jojo's S1 TW seeds to see if they look like the plant i had. I'm hoping to test those seeds down the road and see if the look like the mother plant i had or will have again. I'm also going to be doing some Fem's myslef and will test alot. To see myself about any and all veriations like CBF had stated. I personal like Fet's Green Giant seeds and will always have a stash of seeds. Really good stuff and i've only seen two pheno in my seeds, but close to each other.
Take care

 

[Fat Albert]

My last Bogglegum involuntarily selfed itself (a wee bit warm in the box it was). I received 4 seeds; the banana was right in the middle of those calyxes. The offspring were identical to Mom in both phenotype and vigor. Bonus free female beans! I didn't notice any kind of generational weakening. All were true females with no hermies at all. I surmise that if those S1 plants had selfed themselves, those "S2" plants would begin to display recessive phenotypes (though Bogglegum is a BX3/BX4? How many back-crosses does it take to consider a strain an IBL?).

Fat A

 

[Brownpants]

If the PArent stock is heterozygous for the trait(s) you are trying to breed true, then it will never become IBL simply from backcrossing. Backcrossing is used to determine the genotypes of the parent stock. An IBL strain is homozygous for the traits in question, that is why there is no or little variance seen in the offspring. and the F2 generation as well (for the homozygous trait(s)).
It gets alot more comlicated than that, but basically you want to breed out any recessive genes that are masked by dominant ones.

 

[Freakazoid44]

Wait a minute here...
I don't agree at all with this information.
If a female plant is forced to produce pollen (let's say using STS)...
and that pollen is applied to the exact same plant to produce seeds, my experience has always been that the offspring will be female (of course... with the ocassional hermie) and also basically identical to the parent. There is a HUGE difference between making S1 beans and making F2s. The variation of F2s will almost always be MUCH greater than that of offspring produced from a "selfing" project.

Let's look at Fet's fem'd Green Giant, for example. I'm sure that if you took two regular Green Giants (one male, one female) and produced F2s, the resulting offspring would vary greatly... because Green Giant is not (as far as I know) stable. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of Fet's fem'd GG's, and they always look extremely similiar. There's a little variation in trichome production, and some produce flowers that are larger than others... but for the most part, if you compare 5 or 10 of them side by side, GG S1s always look nearly identical.
Take care,
db

I wouldn't go as far to say "basically identical" - it all depends on the genetic variety within the plant itself, and how stable the genes are.

Using Mendel's example, if you have one breed that has the Xx gener (big X being dominant), and you selfed it, you'd get a pretty standard disribution - XX, Xx times 2, xx.

If the variety has been stabilized, it's will show more uniform characteristics than an F2, but it would be more like crossing two cuttings/clones from the same mother, as opposed to being almost like taking a clone itself.

So if you're dealing with some wild mixes and crosses, and someone picks one out of a wide variety and says (I'll preserve this by selfing it), you'll see some variety. If you're dealing with something stable, and they want to preserve via seeds, then you'll get something pretty uniform.

That's my understanding, and realize that I have little practical experience, and claim no particular technical expertise.

 

[Guest]

I wouldn't go as far to say "basically identical" - it all depends on the genetic variety within the plant itself, and how stable the genes are.

Using Mendel's example, if you have one breed that has the Xx gener (big X being dominant), and you selfed it, you'd get a pretty standard disribution - XX, Xx times 2, xx.

If the variety has been stabilized, it's will show more uniform characteristics than an F2, but it would be more like crossing two cuttings/clones from the same mother, as opposed to being almost like taking a clone itself.

So if you're dealing with some wild mixes and crosses, and someone picks one out of a wide variety and says (I'll preserve this by selfing it), you'll see some variety. If you're dealing with something stable, and they want to preserve via seeds, then you'll get something pretty uniform.

That's my understanding, and realize that I have little practical experience, and claim no particular technical expertise.

It is logical to my basic genetics knowledge,,,

Peace and love,
Agnes

 

[Guest]

Hrmmm,

GDW let me know if you get to compare some S1 seeds to your cut. My curiosity is with the real TW plant and I don't want to waste my time nor my expectations.

spliffmasta

 

[Guest]

Hrmmm,

GDW let me know if you get to compare some S1 seeds to your cut. My curiosity is with the real TW plant and I don't want to waste my time nor my expectations.

spliffmasta

I'm going to compare Jojo's S1's with my cut and see of they are the same cut or close. I don't know if he used the same cut, as there are suppose a few cuts out there. I will do a run and give her a look. It would be nice to find some S1 seeds that are close to the cut i have. I'll be messing around with Fem's, but it will be person testing and nothing will go out. Going to try a couple of different methods. The one Soma uses and a new method with some silver stuff, not STS. I know STS works, but would rather stay as close to natural as possible. Don't worry, there will be plenty of threads from me once i get back and plenty of information for all to share. Well, everyone have a super weekend and take care.
BG

 

[Guest]

Thanks BG

Be sure to keep us updated.

spliffmasta

 

[DankBank]

I wouldn't go as far to say "basically identical" - it all depends on the genetic variety within the plant itself, and how stable the genes are.

Using Mendel's example, if you have one breed that has the Xx gener (big X being dominant), and you selfed it, you'd get a pretty standard disribution - XX, Xx times 2, xx.

If the variety has been stabilized, it's will show more uniform characteristics than an F2, but it would be more like crossing two cuttings/clones from the same mother, as opposed to being almost like taking a clone itself.

So if you're dealing with some wild mixes and crosses, and someone picks one out of a wide variety and says (I'll preserve this by selfing it), you'll see some variety. If you're dealing with something stable, and they want to preserve via seeds, then you'll get something pretty uniform.

That's my understanding, and realize that I have little practical experience, and claim no particular technical expertise.

Hang on here... let's have another look at what I said:

"my experience has always been that the offspring will be female (of course... with the ocassional hermie) and also basically identical to the parent"

With all due respect, maybe you wouldn't go so far as to say basically identical, but please take note that I was speaking from my past experiences... and in MY experiences, the resulting offspring WERE basically identical. You cannot reasonably comment at all about my experience, can you? Actually, I take that back. You CAN, but you shouldn't.
db

 

[Guest]

Great Post. Is this a method breeders use to retain specific qualities of a phenotype? Does it help with back crossing? Why is an IBL more stable?
This would be great for those of us who would consider breaking down a grow , but not going through the labor of finding a new mother. I might have a major remodel and would love to keep the genetics I have so I don't expose my grow to the contractors.

Peace.

 

[Brownpants]

Sample size is important when evaluating ones results. You have to reach a certain population size for any results to be considered significant. Otherwise, the results can still be considered random. Like my wife keeps telling me "Bigger is Better".

Kmarpa - Selfing has been used in agriculture for decades to develope new strains. "Does it help with backcrossing?" I am not sure what you are asking here. IBL is more stable because it is homozygous for the desireable traits. (usually homozygous dominant).

 

[GanjaJedi]

Thank god we have people breeding bomb strains right now, as this is my first grow I'm a little confused by all this breeding stuff. But expierence breeds knowledge, much love.

 

[Freakazoid44]

Hang on here... let's have another look at what I said:

"my experience has always been that the offspring will be female (of course... with the ocassional hermie) and also basically identical to the parent"

With all due respect, maybe you wouldn't go so far as to say basically identical, but please take note that I was speaking from my past experiences... and in MY experiences, the resulting offspring WERE basically identical. You cannot reasonably comment at all about my experience, can you? Actually, I take that back. You CAN, but you shouldn't.
db

This is interesting, because you think I was reading too much into what you were saying, when my response was because I thought you were reading too much into the "F2" comment, and DIDN'T want others to read too much into what you said.

The "F2" comment was actually pretty accurate, but the caveat is you're taking an F2 from identical parents. S2 is pretty much that.

My only point being that the degree to which it is basically identical (in physical characteristics which is what we really care about) is largely dependent upon the degree to which there are matching genes pairs in genes which express themselves in ways we can observe or care about.

For instance, I know a lot of people who have grown F2s of C99 - very, very stable with extremely predictable and replicable results. I've read of some people who have taken seeds of F2s (F3 I guess), and saying there wasn't a ton of variation.

That's an indication of a strain that was stabilized over generations (through backcrossing if the stories are true).

But if I take a plant that's wildly sativa, and one that's complete indica, cross them, then self one of the F1 offspring, selfing will probably give me as much variation as breeding two random offspring.

Then again, if you have a plant of any variety or generation that seems to be and "uber" offspring and has a lot of traits you really like, certainly selfing would be a much higher likelihood of preserving and replicating those traits than just crossing it with another plant.

I don't think we're that far apart, I was more clarifying to make sure what you said wasn't taken too far by someone else.