Seedlings in coco falling over and stems shrivelling

[NPK]

British Hempire, I had the same problem starting seedlings in coco: I'd soak my beans first, get some nice healthy tails going, and then lose the things just as you did after dropping 'em in coco. In fact, I managed to lose all my Mummia seedlings that way. Coco is a fantastic medium, but I won't be using it for seedlings anymore.

So I switched to peat plugs for seedlings, and that was the ticket to success. I soak the beans as usual and put 'em in damp paper towels once the little tails pop out. After two or three days, when the tails have started growing in earnest, I pop 'em in peat pellets. When I see the beginnings of roots popping out of the bottoms of the pellets, then I pop 'em in straight coco coir. Boom! The magic begins.

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

Just wondered if folks agreed this is a proper way to prepare coco for use, he is also using the 8l bricks like the ones I have:

For expanding I use a 10 L bucket and cold to tepid water. It became a habit to let the coco soak over two nights, flushing it 3 - 5 times, to get rid of all salts and hopefully the excess of K in there.

To the last soaking (3 - 5 hrs) I add this stuff:

3/10th of the 5-5-5 mineral fertilizer (recommended is one hub of the disperser to 1 L). I add 3 hubs to my 10 L bucket.
3-4 drops of the turtle B-vitamins
(* Vitamin A: 1000 I.E.
* Vitamin B1: 10mg
* Vitamin B2: 12.5mg
* Vitamin B6: 15mg
* Vitamin B12: 100mcg
* Vitamin C: 200mg
* Vitamin D3: 150 I.E.
* Vitamin E: 5mg
* Biotin: 150mcg
* Vitamin K3: 2.5mg
* Folsäure: 0.3mg
* Nikotinamid: 50mg
* Cholinchlorid: 50mg
* Inosit: 10mg
^^^per 10ml)

A dash of the seaweed extract (< 1 tsp)

And a handfull of the epsoms.

I adjust the water for the last soaking to 5.5 PH, using citric or sulphur acid. With sulphur acid I noticed, the PH rising very quickly again (here up to 5.7 a few hours later) but that seems ok for nute uptake. With citric acid the ph rises slower. I usually try to get 5.4 with the acid. But I'm fine when I'm in the range between 5.2 and 5.5.

let me quote Baas van Buuren here http://www.basvanbuuren.nl/pages/bas...guage=2&site=1
Quote:
Chemical processing
Before the coir is processed into substrates that are suitable for professional horticulture, it needs to be buffered. Coir has a complex chemical structure. All complex compounds are neutrally charged by nature. After all, nature is always searching for a balance. The core is negatively charged and surrounded by a layer of positively charged ions. These positively charged coir ions primarily consist of potassium (K+) and sodium (Na+). Apparently, the coconut palm produces potassium before bearing fruit. Potassium and sodium are positively charged monovalent coir ions. If the coir were used for horticultural purposes without buffering, its structure would, with the use of a nutrient solution, exchange positively charged monovalent ions for positively charged bivalent ions until a new balance is found. Calcium (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+) are the elements in the nutrient solution that are primarily responsible for this exchange. Positively charged bivalent ions have a stronger bond with the negatively charged core than the positively charged monovalent ions. As a result, the complex compound releases potassium and sodium, which is made available to the plant. The calcium and magnesium from the nutrient solution is absorbed by the complex compound and thus no longer made available to the plant. Moreover, the nutrient solution contains potassium as well. To prevent a potassium surplus, the exchange must take place before the substrate reaches the cultivator. This process is strictly monitored by BVB Research. Afterwards, the coir must be rinsed to reduce the EC levels, which are too high after the exchange. If the substrate is treated and flushed in the country where the coconut was grown, residue material can be used as fertiliser by the local banana, coconut and cashew nut plantations. Instead of a waste flow in the Netherlands, the material is sustainably recycled into substances that can be used on the plantations.

That's why I flush the coco for about two days. I measured the EC this morning, after two days of soaking a brick, and it was below tap water (the chlorine evaporates). I add more Nitrogene and Mg than to my previous used soil mix for that reason. Alfalfa is rich in calcium and Mg, one reason (besides B vitamines) to add it to the mix. A runoff every watering (feeding to waste) is part of the game as well.

I'm thinking a drop of superthirve, some Atazyme and Seaweed extract instead of the products he's using, but otherwise using the same method, any opinions?

Sure. But why not simply get a quality coco coir that has been treated for indoor growing (double-washed/pre-hydrated)? It almost sounds to me that the 50 mile drive to the nearest hydro shop would be worth it, compared to flushing and preparing your unwashed coco choir for two days. I'd say any garden depot in your area should carry a quality brand of coco, even if it's not Canna or BioBizz.
It's not only a question of sodium levels. The origin and age of the coco largely plays a role in the fiber qualities. Coco coir harvested when fully mature contain more lignins and cellulose. These fibers are tough and durable. This means more airspace is available for drainage and to supply the roots and soil life with higher levels of atmospheric oxygen (O2). Mature choir fiber will not compact over the course of the crop as with peat. With peat, you fill the pot right to the top at the start of the crop, only to find that a third of the media is “gone” by harvest. What is happening is that the peat fibers are eroding from the force of watering, saline conditions, and the roots compacting the media. This robs the crop of valuable air space in the rootzone, and increases salt build-up as drainage is impeded. With good coir fiber there is little if any compaction of the growing media over the cropping cycle due to the higher content of lignins and cellulose found in the physically coarser fibers.

Cheap coco is often lighter in colour, suggesting immature fibers, and results in a powdery growing media that had poor structure for root growth and aeration.

As to the seaweed extract. I've heard mentioned by other coco growers that kelp, algae and seaweed function badly in coco. I would not pass this hearsay on if it wasn't for an unexplained incident when my coco plants started to grow shrivelled leaves after I added a carbohydrate additive, in which seaweed was an active ingredient. perhaps this warning is unfounded, but I figure you better be careful while the plants are young and fragile.

 

[Guest]

Funnily enough, not one of the garden centres round here sells any form of coco coir. I think the main part of the problem causing them to wilt and fall over is overwatering. I pulled out 8 of the Egyptians cos they were just about dead and the little thin hair roots that grow from the taproot had rotted and died, sure sign of lack of oxygen. The coco I have seems to hold a lot of water, I am letting the rest dry out and praying some of them pull round. Meanwhile, replacement beans are germing. I'm gonna give the coco I already have a good flush and try again with some seeds in coco, some in soil, and this time I'll take care not to let the coco get saturated.

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

It's easier for you to evaluate the problem than it is for me BH, but I would not put my money on overwatering.
I saturate the coco until run-off even with seedlings, and I've never had the same problem.
You basically have to re-think feeding when growing in coco. Overwatering is hardly ever an issue. As said, the particular fiber structure in coco allows for aeration even when the fibers are maximally saturated, so it shouldn't happen.

 

[Guest]

i think your friend in germany is overdoing things slightly lol


to soak a block for seedling use , put 1ml of a and 1ml of b coco nutes into 2litres of warm water ,,add 10 ml of rhizotonic(optional) ph it to 5.8- 6 ,put it in 11 litre bucket and plonk the block in it ,,leave it till the blocks absorbed all the water and then its good to go ,pot the seedlings up and then start watering as and when needed at right levels

this is a tried and tested method and works 100% as shown below



i think ya main problem is the lights to far away and spindly stems are stretching for the light and the weight of the crown is bending /snapping the spindly stems

a good tip for seedlings if putting them in pots ,,only fill the pots just over half way ,then as the seedling stretches u can gradually fill the pot up around the new stem so it dont fall over ,

lets hope things perk up a bit this week for ya

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the info Hazy. What I actually did was take a 24 litre plastic bin, filled it just over a third, so about 8-9l of water, added a drop of superthrive and 10ml of seaweed extract and dropped the block in. I think the mistake I made was adding too much water when I expanded the block so that the coco was very saturated. I should have asked all these questions before I started, but I thought I had done my research and knew what I was doing! Ah well, many is the dream shattered on the hard ground of reality!

I don't think the light is too far away, I've never had any stretching problems with seedlings using this setup and I've germed probably a hundred seedlings in this little box. The CG x GFB that are doing okay are nice and compact. The Afghanis in soil aren't stretchy at all and are nice and healthy.

Ah well, I'm not giving up, I've dumped the coco from the cups into the plastic bin and left it to dry out, more seeds are in towels, and I've planted 5 Pacific Aire (Pacific G13 x (Airborne G13 x Black Widow) that were sprouted in towels into cups of soil.

BTW, I noticed your update in your coco thread of your plant's progress, when I see how yours have grown in the last week or so it makes me really determined to get this coco thing down pat!

 

[bonecarver_OG]

wow - sad to see those seedlings go bad

i usually just use rockwool plugs to start the seedlings, and soak first the plugs in a mix of 4ml rhizotonic to 1 liter, also make sure the ph of the water is under controll. small seedlings its better not to water too often - not untill u can see they have good roots.

when the seedlings are rooted i go directly up to 10 to 15 ml of A+B / 10 liters of water.

when the second set of leafs are well grown out - i go up to 20 ml A+B.

also i make sure the seedlings have enough light so they dont stretch. IMHO stretching seedlings are using vital energy wich instead could go to root production.

if u notice there is some problems in the first stages of the plants growth . you can also mist ur plants with a rhizotonic solucion, wich gives them the necesary nutes for the first stage, while it hydrates them and takes of stress in the roots.

also one thing is sure - good coco gives good results. so buy the better brands - it does pay off. if u cant get time to go to a grow shop, im sure they do send by mail

best of luck in this second attempt.

good to see u are determined and that u dont give up soon enough ur coco grows will be to your liking.

i agree the german dude seems to exagerate the coco preparacion, unless - he is growing all organic - and really makes a soil-less mix.

for using Canna nutes there is no need to add anything to the coco.

peace

bone

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the info and tips bone, I was looking at your outdoor patio coco grow on another forum yesterday funnily enough and you have some nice ladies sunbathing out there.

I have actually used coco once before, I had a Colombian Gold and a Blueberry clone in 2l pots of coco. Never got to flower them but they grew very fast and healthily and it was the same brand of coir I am using now so I thought it was decent stuff.

I'm using Plagron Alga Grow and Alga Bloom for this first attempt at coco as I already have it, for my next attempt I will go buy some Canna coco and Canna nutes, but for now, while I'm learning I'll make the best of what I have (and cash is mighty scarce round these parts at the moment).

The 5 Heri x CG seedlings already look like they are almost dead, their stems have turned to spaghetti, the Egyptians suffered far less rapidly. Sadly the sole Pacific Mexican x C99 seedlign has also suffered from the dreaded stem shrivellling now. I decided to squeeze the cup and get the excess water out and a surprisingly large ammount came out, and I mean, judging by the ammount of water that came out when I squeezed, the coco was at saturation point. So I reckon if I avoid this waterlogging happening again, I should be alright. The 5 surviving CG x GFB are taking off now and starting to grow properly, producing their second set of true leaves. The sole SSSDH feminised seedling has also recovered from the nute burn and is growing fine, as are the two surviving Egyptians. All 8 Afghanis are growing well, although one is a runt with slightly deformed leaves.

 

[bergerbuddy]

It's easier for you to evaluate the problem than it is for me BH, but I would not put my money on overwatering.
I saturate the coco until run-off even with seedlings, and I've never had the same problem.
You basically have to re-think feeding when growing in coco. Overwatering is hardly ever an issue. As said, the particular fiber structure in coco allows for aeration even when the fibers are maximally saturated, so it shouldn't happen.

This is pretty much TRUE.. while overwatering can slow em down some in the early stages.. it doesn't lend to this damping off except for EXAGGERATE IT.. if its ALREADY there..

TWO THINGS... Get different coco...really.. it makes ALL the difference.. canna is GOOD SHIT.. bio bizz works but is heat treated, at least the stuff in the states is and hence it can grow fuzz right on the surface... but its ok..

Two... get a small ozinator... these things are wonderful.. they kill ANY bacteria/fungus they the ozone comes in contact with.. A small unit in your area might well solve the problem by eliminating the cause...

Good luck.. I'd consider just using 10-16oz cups of good soil for ur seedlings then drop em into coco at veg... been working for me for yrs!
Although looking at Hazyfontazy post I AGREE WITH HIS METHOD.. it obviously works!!.. for me as I have plants in all different phazes of growth and only 3 rez's to work with.. its been easiest just using a nute charged soil.. I use canna's organic mix which is like 50% coco and it works AWSOME!

GOod luck BH!!

Peace
BB

 

[Guest]

I still don't know why some of the seedlings damped off and dies and others right next to them were fine. Anyways, after clearing out all the dead and dying sad cases here's what I'm left with.

They are all looking healthy now, the new growth has a nice green colour and they all seem happy, the burnt ones in coco have grown out of the nute problems, I'll hit them with a weaker seaweed solution next watering tomorrow, I gave them 1ml per litre which burnt them a tiny bit so I'll give them 0.5ml per litre, once they are a bit bigger I'll give them 1.0ml per litre again. Ah well, in the week and a bit since the first seeds broke ground on this coco grow I've learnt a lot, so it's not all bad, and I have more seeds in towels as we speak to refill the space.

You can see one of the two surviving Egyptians bottom right, they had severe nute burn on the tips of their first true leaves but managed to pull through, two tough little buggers. They will be joined by some other Egpytians shortly as I popped 8 more beans in paper towels. The bigger plant above it with the burnt leaves is the sole SSSDH fem, she had recovered and the new growth looks good. Glad I didn't loose this one as I gave the 3 others SSSDH beans to a friend to get him started.

On the left in this next shot you can see two of the surviving Cg x GFB f2s, they were burnt quite badly but have pulled through and are going fine now. The bottom right is the runt Purple Afghan, it has wierd really rounded leaves but has started growing now, fingers crossed she catches upto the others.

Here are four of the Afghanis, they are doing fine, nice broad, fat leaves.

The sole Pacific Mexican x C99 seedlings has also bent over, looks like this one will die too. I squeezed a lot of moisture out of the coco iun her pot day before yesterday and I hoped she would be okay.

Just to prove not everything I plant in coco dies, here are the Cheese and OG Kush cuts. hey were hungry and yellowed so I fed them and now they look fine, although they have some signs of slight overfert - clawed leaves and a shinyness to the leaves, but they are growing and ooting fine, give em a couple of days for the clawing and shiny effect to wear off and I'll feed them a bit more. The Cheese is rooting incredibly fast, everytime I check the bottom of the cup there are loads of new roots.

 

[Core]

hello BH try adding a dome to them seedlings ...it will keep 'm warm and moist ...i discoverd that with cloning ....some of'm lookt like dieing and once i added a dome the raised there heads.......it can be that simple....

 

[Guest]

If I get any more falling over I'll try domes, two of my three Durban Poison in 2 litres plastic bottles of coco have also died from damping of, they looked great and were doing fine, the ladst night, suddenly, they shriveeled their stems and bent in half. I've puleld them and popped some more Durban seeds into paper towels. The replacement seedlings are being planted in a mix of soil and coco, just to make sure. I'm determined to figure out why I'm suffering this damping off problem as its not something I've ever seen happen before.

 

[EddieShoestring]

Hi BH
i've been watching your thread as i have been starting some seedlings for the first time in coco (bad luck btw) -

i think everyones pretty much nailed it with the over watering thing and so have held off watering mine. They had one set of true leaves and not much root out of a 3/4" cube when they went into the plastic cups-then they were drenched until plenty run off-with ec1.1/ph 6ish and not watered for 3 days.
Today the cups felt alot lighter but were still damp on the surface-i've watered again-will leave it for another 2 days now.

it seems that small cuts and seedlings like the coco to become a little less wet between longer watering cycles

cheers
eddie

 

[Redseal]

I bought the coco as highly compressed coir blocks from wiggly wigglers, the company I get my worm castings from, in future I think I'll go with Canna.

Wise decision to go with decent coco next time I've bought the same blocks before and found bits of leaf in it, grit, seeds (looked like melon seeds or something similar) so obviously not cleaned very well.. the texture's nowhere near as good as the sacks of Canna either. I think it's only intended for making DIY compost mixes rather than being used on its own.

 

[Guest]

Actually, this coco seems pretty good, no found a single large piece, it's all the same size particles and I've noticed it's much fluffier an lighter if not totally saturated with water like I did the first time round. When my PH pen arrives I think that will help a lot, being able to measure the PH of my nute solution.