Seedling problems

[master shake]

Could you be over watering?? i'm dealing with similar issues. I used straight happy frog, no extra perlite(places around here stop carrying it during winter) in 16oz cups, one in a 1.5 qt. So the problems started just like yours, and I couldn't figure out what the problem was. When things kept getting worse, I was able to find some perlite and transplant into ~40% perlite, just as i had used in my previous grow and had great results. When transplanting I knew what the problem was and it was over watering. The soil was so dense and dry throughout the top half and bottom, where the mostly unhealthy colored roots were, was pretty damn wet. I couldn't loosen the rootball because the dirt was so packed that I could hear roots breaking. I never packed the soil by hand at any time.

A few days ago I decided to start new seeds in an airier mix of HF and 30-40% perlite, like I had done in my first grow, and they are doing just fine.

started like this


then this


first grow, with happy frog+perlite:

 

[Deft]

My first grows went fine too, then started getting worse and worse.

Looks very similar to what happens to everyone else it seems.

I think dryer is better, too much water seems to destroy soil somehow maybe compaction.

 

[MynameStitch]

Hey mastershake, what was your temps like when you were growing those seedlings; they look like they would be color changing like they were in flowering.

Overwatering could contribute to cooler temps too, when the soil stays moist it keeps the temps a little cooler which could contribute to it, but mainly the temps around the area are the biggest result; if the temps around the plants are warm, overwatering will bring down the temp slightly, so overwatering does cause a problem, but it's like this:

It's like the same situation where root rot is a cause from having warm water temps you take away warm water temps you don't have rot.

So in this situation; your overwatering in cooler temps help contribute to keeping seedlings a little cooler; and if you have a fan on them makes matters worse.

but if you warm the temps up, the overwatering problem will not be as bad.

 

[icky420]

Well I'm back to add more drama to the situation. I just noticed some bugs the other day while watering my Nepenthes and was hoping they didnt spread. Well yesterday I was watering my mother plant and I see them in the soil as well.. I have talked in chat with people to figure what they are..Thrips..NOPE..Symphilids..NOPE...Aphids..NOPE... Springtails..YUP...I havent checked the seedlings soil yet to see if they made it over, either way the mother and Nepenthes came out of the Veg box. I have read that they are no big deal to MJ or most plants, but I dont want any free loaders around here...They got to go. I will do my best to isolate the infected plants until I make a final decision .

master shake I do think the HF alone will compact and hold to much water. I have noticed this with a mother plant. I do notice when inspecting the seedlings rootball that the top soil gets too dry and the bottom is nice and moist. I will never use Happy Frog alone again for seedlings, lesson learned.

MynameStitch yes the small pieces of coconut shell. I will put a small layer at the bottom of my pots. 2 reasons: 1. a fellow experienced grower recommended it... 2. I can see that my bigger pots hold a small amount of water in the bottom that does not drain out, so it leaves the tap root/s sitting in water.(this is NOT the case with the seedlings pots)

 

[master shake]

it gets pretty cool at night. I check the min values recorded on my thermometer and said the lowest it got in there was 65, so I'd guess on average around 70. Don't know exactly when that 65 happened but it has been warming up lately outside. last night's lowest was 75 in the closet, day temps are 80-82. It's amazing how much the outside temp affects a grow room.

about the bugs, I've heard of fungus gnats taking a liking to HF. do they crawl around before wings pop out and start flying? if they do, that may be what you have.

 

[MynameStitch]

That is what was causing your coloring of your seedlings is from the cooler temps. When seedlings get those temps they grow slowly, sometimes not at all.

 

[icky420]

I have the not at all...But hey things are looking better...I'm starting new seeds tonight...I want to see if the out perform the others...This time they are going into Rapid Rooters. I forgot thats what I liked to do, see what happens when you take a break!

 

[MynameStitch]

yUP, i DID THE SAME thing for awhile, I took a long break from helping out others and forgot a lot of things I had to go back and re read.....

You mean Rapid rooters?
Never heard of ready rooters

 

[HeadyPete]

I was gonna say your mix needs way more perlite. That drooping is from waterlogged soil. If you use all coco, you don't need perlite because it drains so well, but that shot of your rootball shows a lack of perlite and shows me that the soil is poor draining and compacted. That will mess with your nute uptake and mimic other issues.

How about a pic of the pests if possible to confirm your diagnosis of springtails?

 

[icky420]

I need to water tonight. Their last feed was Mar 2 as posted above..Any suggestions?

They are doing much better now that its warmer, but I have checked the rootball of a few and they are not producing nice roots..They are all thin and dark.

F.Y.I. I havent done anything to them that has not be posted in here.

 

[icky420]

I just looked at my water report and I dont see any Ca listed as found in the water nor anything referencing Total Hardness. So I'm wondering if all along I have had various Ca issues. Not meaning its my problem now, just from time to time not enough was in the soil form me not adding any. What do ya think?

 

[MynameStitch]

Did it list what the total PPM/EC of your water read out is?
Nearly ALL water from tap has some calcium or magneisum, even if it's small amounts.

Not all water is hard some is extremely soft which has it but very little.

 

[icky420]

When I test my water I get [email protected]

I dont deny it has it Ca and Mg, but I'm wondering if the ppm is low enough that they dont need to list it.

Here are all the details of whats in my water

Lead - 90% samples less than 2ppb

Copper - 90% samples less than .04ppm

Barium - .03 ppm

Fluoride - 1.1ppm

Nitrate - 0.8ppm

Sodium - 11.7ppm

Sulfate - 34ppm

Chlorine - 2.4

Thats whats LISTED on my Tap water report.

 

[MynameStitch]

Damn, if your plants ever have any problems...... stop using tap water. That is a lot of sodium. I wonder if they use a water softner; If I were you I would find out quickly.
That may be why they do not list cal and mag; sodium is what takes the place of cal mag to remove the water hardness.

Sodium is terrible for plants.
I would call first and find out if that is natural sodium found out in our environment or it is from a water softner, big difference in potency.

 

[icky420]

Damn, if your plants ever have any problems...... stop using tap water. That is a lot of sodium. I wonder if they use a water softner; If I were you I would find out quickly.
That may be why they do not list cal and mag; sodium is what takes the place of cal mag to remove the water hardness.

Sodium is terrible for plants.
I would call first and find out if that is natural sodium found out in our environment or it is from a water softner, big difference in potency.

The notes next to the contents of Sodium say "Naturaly present in the environment"...I dont see any notes that reference softener either.

I know people say we have CLEAN drinking water around here. I guess the only option for a true answer is getting my water tested by a lab. But what to do until then.(I dont think i would even do it)

On a side note I just fed the plants the other night, Mar 10

1/2 tbsp Calcium.......\
1tsp Meta Base 3-3-3..\ 1gal = 800ppm @5.5..I also inoculated
1tsp Meta Nitro........../
1tsp Liquid Karma....../

They look great tonight. Starting to get their green back...Thanks again stitch for helping me realize something so simple that I was overlooking. Now I need to get back into the swing of what to feed these and when.

 

[MynameStitch]

Ya, I would not worry about the sodium then for now.
I would feed them that dosage one more time and then cut it down slightly to about 600 ppms.

That is a strong dose so you don't want it building up quickly you gave them there dosage to fix the deficiency and now they will have there storage and won't need as much.

 

[icky420]

Well they are looking MUCH better, BUT they now look like they are having a N toxicity and maybe a Micro deff. I will post pics later, but for now its a light greening from the stem outward. I watered them last night with 1 drop of a chelated Micro nutrient to 2 ltr, that I figured couldnt hurt.

 

[MynameStitch]

You mean from the petioels outwards? Stem outwards?

Na, 1 drop with that amount would'nt hurt.

I will be here when ya post the pics

 

[icky420]

Stitch - I'm have to run to work but have the pics uploading..So they will be the 2 newest pics in my gallery..

I just got home and here are the pics, these are the worst 2.

 

[MynameStitch]

800 ppms is a lot for those plants dude...... I would have used around 500 600 tops.

You got some kind of micronutrient lockout...... iron it looks like, but that is no deficiency, that is a toxcity.....

what is the highest micronutrient you are using right now?
Which one and the %
it might be a calcium toxicity...... never seen one before; it's hard to tell with toxicity of a certain nutrient, I would flush them plants out and bring down your nutrient ppms to 500 to let them recover and then bump it up once they fully recover.

You should not be having a nitrogen deficiency and a micronbutrient problem with the dosages you are using, so bring them down and start small.

You using any other micros besides calcium?

also stop using the LK for now, until they recover.
Cause you are doubling up on a lot of nutes.

I would use 1 tsp of calcium, no more.