Sealed Room Build

[JBskate1002]

Hey everyone,

I'm somewhat of a new member here, but this is my first post. I'm working with a full 2 car garage and I'm trying to build the most efficient room as possible. What i've been trying to figure out is if I should air cool the lights or go with adjusta-wings. Does one have more benefits than the other? I do understand I would need a bigger A/C with non vented lights.

Right now i'm looking at running a Friedrich 33k btu mini split for 8 air-cooled hoods, does that seem like a good fit? I figured since I don't have a ton of ceiling space air-cooling the lights would be my best bet.

Do I need to run c02 or will I be fine as long as I'm scrubbing the air and have good airflow? The room is going to be roughly 20x14x8

I'm open to any suggestions

 

[the gnome]

thats' nearly the same size room i just finished a few months ago.

advantages to the open non-vented bulbs is you'll get more light and more direct light to the plants depending on hoods etc etc
not having to go thru glass, how much more is topic of debate
of course you'll need more AC unvented, about 5000btu per 1000w
so a 40,000btu is what to get, but with that size room you'll be way better off going with 2-20,000btu AC,
lots of advantages there,
you minimize hot spots and if 1unit goes down you have the other to work with and not be completely fooked

on the Co2 thing its your decision.
if you don't go sealed then as long as you have good air exchange you'll be fine.
pro's-n-cons both ways
you have to decide.

I suggest reading as much as you can on both ways but sounds like your leaning towards
unsealed aircooled

 

[JBskate1002]

thats' nearly the same size room i just finished a few months ago.

advantages to the open non-vented bulbs is you'll get more light and more direct light to the plants depending on hoods etc etc
not having to go thru glass, how much more is topic of debate
of course you'll need more AC unvented, about 5000btu per 1000w
so a 40,000btu is what to get, but with that size room you'll be way better off going with 2-20,000btu AC,
lots of advantages there,
you minimize hot spots and if 1unit goes down you have the other to work with and not be completely fooked

on the Co2 thing its your decision.
if you don't go sealed then as long as you have good air exchange you'll be fine.
pro's-n-cons both ways
you have to decide.

I suggest reading as much as you can on both ways but sounds like your leaning towards
unsealed aircooled

Hey gnome, thanks for responding.

So if I air cooled the lights its considered unsealed because I have to cut holes for exhausting the lights?
I was planning on filling in any gaps with some sort of filler so the hoods and ducting would be completely sealed.

My plan was to air cool the lights to outside and just run an A/C with fans ect. This is where I get a bit confused, I thought if I sealed the hoods and ducting that I wouldn't need a constant fresh air exchange, or have I misunderstood. I will be going into the room daily.

 

[budleydoright]

In my experience, running open hood fixtures in a completely sealed room ads just the right amount of heat to keep your properly sized refrigerated air conditioner running almost constantly. This accomplishes 2 things, removing heat and as a byproduct removing moisture.

If you remove heat by aircooling your hoods in a sealed room you upset this balance and will have to run a large dehumidifier in your space to remove the moisture.

An air conditioner and deumidifier are both refrigeration units. The AC has it's condensing coils outside of the treated space where a dehumidifier has both the condensing coils as well as the evaporative within the treated space. Which one is removing the moisture isn't really that important it's that the moisture is being removed.

So many of us find it more efficient, easier and less expensive to run open hood and aircondition the space, as opposed to cooling the lights, running a dehumidifier all day as well as an AC to remove the heat the dehuey creates.

A dehumidifier or venting is required during the night periods.

This is assuming a completely sealed co2 enriched space or a CEA.

 

[the gnome]

Hey gnome, thanks for responding.

So if I air cooled the lights its considered unsealed because I have to cut holes for exhausting the lights?
I was planning on filling in any gaps with some sort of filler so the hoods and ducting would be completely sealed.

My plan was to air cool the lights to outside and just run an A/C with fans ect. This is where I get a bit confused, I thought if I sealed the hoods and ducting that I wouldn't need a constant fresh air exchange, or have I misunderstood. I will be going into the room daily.

sorry, i assumed when you said air cooled lamps you were not going in a sealed room w/Co2.
but yeah, you can run air cooled
or non cooled lamps in a sealed room.

to give you an idea of what I pay running non air cooled bulbs
I have 6- 1000w bulbs on a 32,500btu mr slim mini split
it cools 18 hrs in veg
with 6 mag ballasts in the room, temps on those are 145-165F each
add a gas Co2 gen and all the fans and gizmo's
and it runs under $90 a month in elec just for the AC

so its not that much more in costs to run open hoods imo
and those lamps help burn off a lot of Rh as said above.
but in my situation I couldn't vent anything at all so i had to go that route and don't regret it
just my

 

[JBskate1002]

In my experience, running open hood fixtures in a completely sealed room ads just the right amount of heat to keep your properly sized refrigerated air conditioner running almost constantly. This accomplishes 2 things, removing heat and as a byproduct removing moisture.

If you remove heat by aircooling your hoods in a sealed room you upset this balance and will have to run a large dehumidifier in your space to remove the moisture.

An air conditioner and deumidifier are both refrigeration units. The AC has it's condensing coils outside of the treated space where a dehumidifier has both the condensing coils as well as the evaporative within the treated space. Which one is removing the moisture isn't really that important it's that the moisture is being removed.

So many of us find it more efficient, easier and less expensive to run open hood and aircondition the space, as opposed to cooling the lights, running a dehumidifier all day as well as an AC to remove the heat the dehuey creates.

A dehumidifier or venting is required during the night periods.

This is assuming a completely sealed co2 enriched space or a CEA.

Thanks for breaking that down, I have a lot better of an understanding what each will give me.

sorry, i assumed when you said air cooled lamps you were not going in a sealed room w/Co2.
but yeah, you can run air cooled
or non cooled lamps in a sealed room.

to give you an idea of what I pay running non air cooled bulbs
I have 6- 1000w bulbs on a 32,500btu mr slim mini split
it cools 18 hrs in veg
with 6 mag ballasts in the room, temps on those are 145-165F each
add a gas Co2 gen and all the fans and gizmo's
and it runs under $90 a month in elec just for the AC

so its not that much more in costs to run open hoods imo
and those lamps help burn off a lot of Rh as said above.
but in my situation I couldn't vent anything at all so i had to go that route and don't regret it
just my

Oh its all good, the reason I asked is because I don't see too many set up like that on the forums.
Damn yeah that's not bad at all for the A/C I was expecting almost double that, I'm also gonna insulate really well to help keep costs down.
Do you veg in the same room until you kick 12/12?

Thanks again for the help

 

[the gnome]

due to circumstances I had to veg in the room this 1st run,
actually I'm going into 12/12 tonite
oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah

after this 1st harvest it'll be 12/12 in there
or a very limited veg time.
that room needs to stay in production mode continually.
and yeah...
I couldn't believe the power on the AC.
get a top brand AC with a a good seer rating
plus insulation was key for me, i wanted the room as efficient as a walkin cooler
I have around R40 walls and ceiling
even my door is 4" thick OSB laminated hi density ESP foam

 

[gus738]

what kind of ac do you have running? i plan to do at least 5k mh & hps on a 10ft all around .

 

[Floridian]

I use the vertizontal hood horizontal with 1K horts in a sealed room with a big winjdow unit.I'd use co2 also I use a cd-6 its great.Make sure its on a controller not a cyclestat.you want 50 watts a sq ft for flowering I have 3 1Ks in an 8 by 8 room sounds like a lot in a little space but 50 wsqft grows hoglegs

 

[Granger2]

Lots of discussion and opinions without even considering JB's climate. Hot summers? Cold winters? Humidity?

As far as any kind of "balance" goes, that depends on each day's weather conditions. I wouldn't count on any kind of balance except for a few days per year, if then. I'm at 30N Lat, and there's no such thing as just the right amount of heat. Just the right amount of heat would be NO heat which would drastically reduce my electric bill, lowering my cost of production drastically. Running your AC almost constantly accomplishes not 2, but 3 things. The 3rd being raising your electric bill to max.

If you don't run sealed, you may well have chronic fungus problems, Powdery Mildew, Botritis [Bud Rot] unless you're in CO and a few other places, where the humidity is low all but a few days per year. In most areas, many days per year it'll be too hot or too cold to ventilate. Then what?

And yes, if you run air cooled lamps on a closed loop, cooled with outside air intake, run thru lamps, and exhausted back out, you're running a sealed room, and don't need or want to ventilate the room with outside air.

You can run a sealed room with or without air cooled lamps. The most trouble free way is to have your AC/AC's thermostat set where you want it, humidity level set where you want it on dehumd, and run them the same 24/7 and forget about it [of course monitoring them with Hi/lo thermometers/hygrometers]. If they don't need to run, they won't. That's what humidistats and thermostats are for. I want conditions in my room to be as close to optimal as I can manage, 24 hours/day. Otherwise you risk fungal problems that can ruin your crops.

If you run sealed, you must add CO2. Otherwise the plants will use it all up. That is, if you care about yield. Without supplementation, the only CO2 they'll get is what you exhale, what comes in when door is opened, and what may be produced by your medium.

Gnome,
Do you mean $90/month MORE for AC than if you were to run air cooled lamps? Surely you don't mean $90/mo total for AC. Or maybe cost during winter?

Good luck. -granger

 

[budleydoright]

Granger, while I do see some seasonal fluctuations. Being sealed for the most part shields me from them. When my lights are on, yes they produce the right amount of heat input to keep my AC runing 80% of the time. This is much more effecient than having multiple refrigeration compressors cycling throughout the photoperiod which leads to temps and RH swings.

My difficulties are in the winter during the dark phase. RH can spike and temps can drop fast. I ad heat via an 8k window AC converted into a dehuey. This will ad enough heat to have the AC cycle eliminating the problem. Between the 2 units I capture 70-80% of the water fed to the plants in a DTW system.

I hope this clarifies what I meant in my previous post.

 

[Granger2]

Budley,
Well not really clear. What kind of climate are you in? Are you running a mini split? Much depends on that or whether you're running a window unit, since most mini splits run with the amount of power needed, rather than cycling on and off. -granger

 

[budleydoright]

Budley,
Well not really clear. What kind of climate are you in? Are you running a mini split? Much depends on that or whether you're running a window unit, since most mini splits run with the amount of power needed, rather than cycling on and off. -granger

My situation is very unique, I am currently running window ACs soon to be a split unit. The thing here is they are all inside a large warehouse. There is no venting to the outside, including the condensors.

I did not consider the inverter based split units spooling down. That still however doesn't change the equation inside the sealed room. My plants put out almost exactly the amount of moisture it takes for 36k of ac to remove when running full tilt. In the summer I run less light, the winter more. If I were to cool the lights seperately there wouldn't be enough dehumidification happening, regardless of it's due to cycling or running slower.

So I would have to ad a dehuey (which I often do) during the photoperiod if my ac wasn't handling the moisture. I'm in the high desert. the RH is often in the teens to high twenties. Inside RH runs 50-65%.

There are always many paths to the same goal, I'm not suggesting this is the only one. I'm just putting my experience into the mix. I have run many systems from water cooled sealed to aircooled and finally all open hood sealed. AC for day, dehuey for night. Of course full co2 and climate controlled.

 

[the gnome]

Gnome,
Do you mean $90/month MORE for AC than if you were to run air cooled lamps? Surely you don't mean $90/mo total for AC. Or maybe cost during winter?

Good luck. -granger

my ac is on its own meter base so i know what actual cost for the AC is........ and it's under $90 for my 1st months run in dec.
this is in veg 18hrs a day keeping the temps between 78-80 and all the other stuff I posted that creates heat in the room...
AND
it may be lower this month
I replaced 3 of the mag ballast that burn at 145-165F with 3 digi's
that run @89F

 

[JBskate1002]

due to circumstances I had to veg in the room this 1st run,
actually I'm going into 12/12 tonite
oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah

after this 1st harvest it'll be 12/12 in there
or a very limited veg time.
that room needs to stay in production mode continually.
and yeah...
I couldn't believe the power on the AC.
get a top brand AC with a a good seer rating
plus insulation was key for me, i wanted the room as efficient as a walkin cooler
I have around R40 walls and ceiling
even my door is 4" thick OSB laminated hi density ESP foam

Sweet! i'll be keeping an eye on your thread for updates.
Yeah I want to go with a unit that I know will last.
That's boss, I'm going with a standard 36x80 sized steel security door. You think that'll keep the light out?

Lots of discussion and opinions without even considering JB's climate. Hot summers? Cold winters? Humidity?

As far as any kind of "balance" goes, that depends on each day's weather conditions. I wouldn't count on any kind of balance except for a few days per year, if then. I'm at 30N Lat, and there's no such thing as just the right amount of heat. Just the right amount of heat would be NO heat which would drastically reduce my electric bill, lowering my cost of production drastically. Running your AC almost constantly accomplishes not 2, but 3 things. The 3rd being raising your electric bill to max.

If you don't run sealed, you may well have chronic fungus problems, Powdery Mildew, Botritis [Bud Rot] unless you're in CO and a few other places, where the humidity is low all but a few days per year. In most areas, many days per year it'll be too hot or too cold to ventilate. Then what?

And yes, if you run air cooled lamps on a closed loop, cooled with outside air intake, run thru lamps, and exhausted back out, you're running a sealed room, and don't need or want to ventilate the room with outside air.

You can run a sealed room with or without air cooled lamps. The most trouble free way is to have your AC/AC's thermostat set where you want it, humidity level set where you want it on dehumd, and run them the same 24/7 and forget about it [of course monitoring them with Hi/lo thermometers/hygrometers]. If they don't need to run, they won't. That's what humidistats and thermostats are for. I want conditions in my room to be as close to optimal as I can manage, 24 hours/day. Otherwise you risk fungal problems that can ruin your crops.

If you run sealed, you must add CO2. Otherwise the plants will use it all up. That is, if you care about yield. Without supplementation, the only CO2 they'll get is what you exhale, what comes in when door is opened, and what may be produced by your medium.


Good luck. -granger

Thanks for dropping in granger,

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid, is any type of disease.
As for my climate, I get very cold winters and humidity is definitely a concern. This year it was down to -8 degrees.

Should I get a mini split with AC and heat? I'm worried when my lights are off that the temp might drop significantly but not too sure since it will be insulated.

Sounds like i'm going with c02.

 

[the gnome]

Sweet! i'll be keeping an eye on your thread for updates.
Yeah I want to go with a unit that I know will last.
That's boss, I'm going with a standard 36x80 sized steel security door. You think that'll keep the light out?

I get very cold winters and humidity is definitely a concern. This year it was down to -8 degrees.

Should I get a mini split with AC and heat? I'm worried when my lights are off that the temp might drop significantly but not too sure since it will be insulated.

Sounds like i'm going with c02.

a steel entry unit should be pretty much lite proof JB
if there is a leak it'll be an easy fix.

if your getting down to -8F and your condenser unit is going to be outside you may have a prob using the AC.
I have a mitsu mr slim with a low ambient thingy that lets me use the AC with temps outside as low as 4F.
you can get a low ambient kit if what ever you get doesn't work in your climate

if your needing the heat that's probably ok... something to check into before you decide what to get.

what ever you get make sure its a reliable brand with an A+ track record, you'll pay more but trust me its worth it.
read where this fella got an off brand minisplit and it took a dump within a few months, an elec. board in the unit fried and it took
like 6wks to have one shipped in from ??? asia somewhere.
a local ac supply in town is a mitsu dealer and has every part needed for my mr slim or can get it over nited

 

[JBskate1002]

a steel entry unit should be pretty much lite proof JB
if there is a leak it'll be an easy fix.

if your getting down to -8F and your condenser unit is going to be outside you may have a prob using the AC.
I have a mitsu mr slim with a low ambient thingy that lets me use the AC with temps outside as low as 4F.
you can get a low ambient kit if what ever you get doesn't work in your climate

if your needing the heat that's probably ok... something to check into before you decide what to get.

what ever you get make sure its a reliable brand with an A+ track record, you'll pay more but trust me its worth it.
read where this fella got an off brand minisplit and it took a dump within a few months, an elec. board in the unit fried and it took
like 6wks to have one shipped in from ??? asia somewhere.
a local ac supply in town is a mitsu dealer and has every part needed for my mr slim or can get it over nited

Yeah I've been looking into low ambient units already.
Friedrich seems like a good company, they claim to be usable down to 0 degrees. Any opinions on this?
Yeah, this is my first build and I'm trying to do it right the first time.
If anyone has any idea of something I might be looking over, definitely let me know!

 

[JBskate1002]

Hey everyone here's an update. Framing is all done, waiting for electrician then doing insulation/drywall.

So here's my dilemma. The room is roughly 14x23 now.
In the second picture you can see the wall that was built doesn't completely go against the already existing wall, and that's for access to another room.
Would it be a good idea to split this room into 2? I was thinking of a 13x14 room for flower and using the rest for veg, but I still want 8k in flower.
13x14=182 8000watts/182 sqft = 44 watt per square foot. So if that's correct then the room wouldnt be too small for 8k.
Any suggestions?

 

[JBskate1002]

Right now my room is 14x23, is 8000 watts enough to cover that area for flower?
I want to do it right the first time and not have to add more lighting down the road.
Or would I be better splitting the room to have a veg/flower area to up my watts per sq ft in bloom?

 

[Miijade]

Interesting thread. I just finished building my 8k flower room alongside my 2k veg room. Flower room is 10x17 I run 8 vertizontal reflectors. Totally sealed, supplemental co2, 36k mini split doing the cooling and a 70 pint dehu helping the RH stay even. I pull 5 gallons of water out of the air every 24hrs. Veg room is 7x15 and contains my clone/mother tent as well as various supplies, media, etc. My advice: split that room up and veg on the other side. I try and run perpetual and harvest every 4 weeks. I'm subed so keep the updates coming.

Peace