Scarhole's root pruning sex reversal method for fem seeds

[Only Ornamental]

Ah, right... Though, chlorophyll isn't a nutrient .
Some sugar will be pumped down the stem into the water but that's not that much of a problem as the leaves should produce an excess of carbohydrates anyway.
If you change the water regularly every 1-2 days, then you could easily feed sugars (based on scientific findings, sucrose should have the most advantages) to boost your plants on several levels (up to 2% should be well tolerated -> although, the malevolent microbes will love you for that!).
Also, add a B vitamin complex because, without proper rhizosphere, these might become a bit short. Drawback is, they promote root growth and formation but are also beneficial for pollen development.
Furthermore, because you mess with the roots and hormone homoeostasis, expression of nutrient transporters and other enzymes such as nitrate/nitrite reductases may be altered; adding amino acids as a part of the nitrogen fertiliser will be beneficial; best would be glutamine, second best glutamic acid (aka glutamate or MSG).
Additionally, use rather high concentration of phosphate due it's positive influence on gibberellins (the 'male' hormones in cannabis). High P also reduces sugar translocation from leaves to 'roots'. Maybe, don't use a lot magnesium (maybe mainly as foliar if need be?) as it antagonises GA in vitro... but that's just an educated guess.
What else?
Add a bit of vitamin C seems a good idea.
Keep copper supplementation at a minimum (avoid if possible without sever deficiency); this will reduce ethylene formation and help with several things.
Don't add boron to the water (unless plants become deficient); it boosts root development.
Don't add any hormones (other than GA's) or rooting thingies (obviously).
Don't use whatever miracle stuff as fertiliser/booster/foliar/whatever where you don't know the EXACT composition! Several may contain cytokinins, precursors thereof, or other hormones/PGRs which will play against you in this endeavour!

Wish you success and keep us posted!

 

[Mad Lab]

So for this to work you would need to implement some sort of root chamber with a high RH like aeroponics? That seems to only way to pluck roots off as they form or am i missing something here?

I would also assume implementing a 12/12 cycle when the clones were initially placed in the cloner would be ideal? I can see the plant possibly receiving its minimal requirements for growth to produce enough pollen to use but its hard to imagine much more than that.

Perhaps even taking cuts from a flowering mother@week 1 of flower and continuing the 12/12 during cloning would speed up the process and allow you to ensure the plant was in flower before cutting.

Very interesting.

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks for the detailed response OO. i will give this a try.

in an attempt to have the last word on the nutrients chlorophyl is not a nutrient, but i thought the chlorophyl got 'dismantled' by the plant and the elements therein re-used for plant processes when other nutrition is not available? so it is arguably kind of a nutrient store for the plant...?

im sure you'll tell me if ive got it wrong.

and yes i'll keep you posted on my success, or lack thereof

VG

 

[Only Ornamental]

...root chamber with a high RH like aeroponics?
...
I would also assume implementing a 12/12 cycle when the clones were initially placed in the cloner would be ideal?
...
Perhaps even taking cuts from a flowering mother@week 1 of flower and continuing the 12/12 during cloning...

- It doesn't matter which system you use, as long as you can remove the plants on a daily basis to cut off roots. I'd go with a simple flower vase approach (preferably a light-impermeable vase or the like).
- The thing here is, that the plants have some cytokinin reserve and that needs to be used up before you go into flowering. Else, the hormones will turn the flower primordia into female ones. Out of pure intuition, I'd switch after a week jiveholing.
- Taking clones from a flowering plant? Very bad idea! We want to reverse the sex and hence need the tiny flower meristems to reorganise. Best way is to start the torture before these even form; that is during vegetative growth.

...
in an attempt to have the last word on the nutrients chlorophyl is not a nutrient, but i thought the chlorophyl got 'dismantled' by the plant and the elements therein re-used for plant processes when other nutrition is not available? so it is arguably kind of a nutrient store for the plant...?

im sure you'll tell me if ive got it wrong.
...

You've got it somewhat wrong but so do I (kind of) . I learned not so long ago, that chlorophyll isn't really metabolised, turns out, that it is to some degree.
Chlorophyll needs to be tightly controlled to adapt for example to very high or very low light conditions. Recommended literature HERE.
Thereby, magnesium within chlorophyll is recycled but the chlorophyll skeleton is only 'discoloured' and sent to terminal storage. The structure of chlorophyll, much like that of heme (red pigment in haemoglobin/blood), aren't easily metabolised and that requires energy rather than producing it. Hence, these molecules are just inactivated via a few enzymatic steps and 'put away'.

Especially during nutrient starvation and senescence where energy and time are short, chlorophyll metabolism is kept to a strict minimum. Once the old leaves got deprived of the stored nutrients (mainly starch, certain minerals, and some proteins), they start dying. During this process, remaining chlorophyll still works as a light capturing machinery. But now, there's nothing coupled behind to get rid of the photosynthates and more importantly, there are no reductive equivalents (mainly ascorbic acid and it's regenerating cycles) to quench formed radical oxygen species. These so called ROS are, when uncontrolled, very harmful to everything nearby. The plants know that and hence inactivate some of the chlorophyll during the re-allocation of nutrients in order to be able to salvage stored nutrients as long as possible. But inactivating chlorophyll requires energy... In the end, these ROS cause bleaching of leaves (they also degrade chlorophyll), lead ultimately to death, and also turn the fallen leaves brown (without light, leaves stay green much longer -> see your headstash).
Sure, leaves turning yellow or red has to do with chlorophyll degradation, but that's just a side effect of the plant trying to protect itself from ROS and is concomitant with an accumulation of protective flavonoids and anthocyanes (it's the ratio between the green and yellow/red pigments we perceive).

 

[delta9nxs]

my cuttings put on mass while rooting and don't yellow.

this is at 80-82f with approx 70% rh. no domes. in turface, pulse watered every 3 hrs with jack's hydro special and calcinit at approx 250 ppm at .5.

so if you took cuttings and just placed them in a jar of water with a weak nutrient solution they will uptake without roots.

immediately put them on 12-12 and every time you see a root scrape it off.

change the solution frequently.

i think that's all these russian dudes did back in 1972.

what's russian for "jiveholing"?

 

[Only Ornamental]

...
i think that's all these russian dudes did back in 1972.

what's russian for "jiveholing"?

Me think too .

Jive = dance = polka
Hole = gulag
-> gulag polka?

 

[scarhole2]

is there any particular part of the root that produces the cytokinins? i root my cuts in small peat pucks about 1" diameter, do you think that removing all roots as they emerge from the puck will be enough? it will probably leave about 10mm of each root inside the puck

also does anyone know how long it needs to be done for, and afterwards presumably you just pot it up and put it straight to flower? or can you veg it a little?

want to try this but cant see much info in the tread or the abstract....

thanks

VG

Mr verdantgreen
The very tips if the roots need pruning, 2 times In 3 weeks, I believe.

I'm Still here, *just started some *c99 haze autos and some *Grapefruit 99 haze autos.*

But my plans to try the root pruning are scraped for now.




My Daughter has been sick. The* Drs thought it was a brain tumor. *But there's nothing on all the tests. So the call it an idiosyncratic *pseudo tumor. *Looks like the medicine will keep her inner cranium pressure down.
Thank you God.


Nothing as hard as watching your children sick an dying....*

 

[Waldgeist]

you can see on the tablet a clone of malawi, imo a stable female as far as i messed around with her(small containers, stressed by nutrition, draught, heat and stray light- flowered it several times now).

it was flowering in the rockwool cube for 10 days when i took it out, planning to replace it with another clone.

but then i ripped the inner plug from the rockwool, like this

repotted it to coco(230ml) and put back to flower

lets see in a week

 

[Dog Star]

Cant wait to see what is happening,tough your cutting of roots was extreme a bit..

Thanx Waldgeist for try.


DS

 

[Only Ornamental]

...tough your cutting of roots was extreme a bit...

Likely not enough. I mean, it would be cool and way more practical if it did work with so many roots still there but I fear like this it won't do the trick.

 

[delta9nxs]

scarhole2, terribly sorry about your sick child! i hope she recovers fully!

 

[delta9nxs]

Likely not enough. I mean, it would be cool and way more practical if it did work with so many roots still there but I fear like this it won't do the trick.

i don't think so either. in the experiment they scraped the stem whenever roots appeared. not letting them develop. stopping cytokinin production.

you are not trying to grow a plant here. just make it drop pollen.

 

[stoned-trout]

I believe that's another form of stress...using stress to make fem seeds is problematic....I wont be doing it ...cs or sts....

 

[Only Ornamental]

@stoned-trout:
It has nothing to do with believe . And it's not the 'stress' that does 'reverse' sex (rather promote male flower formation) but an imbalance in hormones. With CS and STS you do exactly the same, just with a different hormone AND you do so by giving your plants a highly toxic heavy metal which isn't even selective and leads to other issues and stresses, some of which are caused by copper deficiency. How one earth can that be better?
Besides, using chitosan, hydrogen peroxide, salicylic acid, jasmonic acid, compost tea, effective micro-organisms, and other 'goodies' on your plants cause different forms of stress too. These don't lead to sex reversal (usually) but might cause your plant to go bonkers none the less, like producing more trichomes or becoming disease resistant... How could you do such a terrible thing to your plant and oh my dear, even use it to produce seeds!

EDIT: Besides, topping, pinching, pruning, FIMing and the like also mess with hormone balance (again another hormone) leading to lateral branching. These techniques are regarded as safe and even beneficial. On the other hand, using vitriol to treat fungi and root rot is frowned upon though it's just copper (as sulphate salt), a metal which is less toxic than silver.

 

[BobMarley99]

Did anyone have any success with this scarhole technique?
Verdantgreen? Anybody else?

 

[Tonygreen]

Never tried it but this is how I test males for intersex traits sort of. Jam a finger in there a few places and mess up some roots surefire way to see intersex if it's in there.

 

[roybart]

Mr verdantgreen
The very tips if the roots need pruning, 2 times In 3 weeks, I believe.

I'm Still here, *just started some *c99 haze autos and some *Grapefruit 99 haze autos.*

But my plans to try the root pruning are scraped for now.



Nothing as hard as watching your children sick an dying....*

Yes I know that feeling. Sadly and as parent we are just not designed to bury our young. I hope it works out for you..

 

[Yardy1986]

At the risk of mentioning the obvious wont cutting away the roots from a cutting make it die unless its in a bubble type cloner? - how long to cut the roots to get rid of the hormones stored in the plant is what I'm getting at