RSC Nanda Devi and Kumaoni

[herbgreen]

Yeah, I think all cannabis plants have the "hermi" preservation trait in one form or another and at very large spectrum of sensitivity levels

Trick would be as you said to pick the ones that dont do that... whatever the stress

The plants might not be as stressed in their native environment so the the hermi trait that they are genetically pre-disposed are not a factor

Its going to be a factor in a new place with different temps, wind, rain, light...

Genetic and environment technically....but its hidden in the genetics

Either way for human purposes...select away from it

All cannabis plants have this in their genetics...some it happens easy ...some you can't even make them do it if you try...Its a preservation trait

Nature always finds a way!

You got some good plants...trick is to save clones so you can run the good ones and test out males on them...get a solid adapted line

its a minor miracle we have these heirloom landraces straight from the source....

many thanks ngakpa!

 

[meizzwang]

If it is a genetic component, it would explain why the unworked landraces showed higher hermi traits compared to selected, worked hybrids. I'm curious to hear if others have grown out a wide array of the original RSC seeds (ie. 30 seedlings or more of various types) and during the same grow season, in the same garden, had zero hermis under an outdoor, Mediterranean climate.

It's easy to skew the results by showcasing extraordinary individuals, or comparing small number of plants showing no hermis. It wouldn't be surprising if there's under-reporting of hermi traits being displayed, as some may be quick to link it to grower error or environmental conditions. While that could be the case, more data is needed to form a solid hypothesis.

 

[ngakpa]

Hi Meizzwang,


This says what I have been trying to convey:

"Some varieties require an environmental stress to express inter-sex. This is genetic based also."

The fundamental reason that farmers in these traditional growing regions haven't selected against this trait is because typically it isn't being expressed

you can't select against a characteristic that isn't showing up in your plants



To put this in experiential terms:

imagine you go and visit any one of these landrace regions and walk into the fields

if your grow is an objective assessment of this issue, then

50% of plants in Lebanese hash fields will be hermies,
100% of plants in the Nanda Devi fields will be hermies
and so on...

sorry to be blunt, but that is very fucking obviously not going to be the case - right?


so yes, the capacity of a plant to express 'hermi' tendencies is genetically determined

more or less everthing a plant does is genetically determined! And certainly something like showing sex

but in this case it is clear that an external factor is triggering the reponse (unless you want to assert that 50% - 100% of plants in hash fields are hermies, which I think we can discount)


anyway, there are many factors other than photoperiod that can cause this response

as for the comparison with the ACE Panama - that's a line that's been worked for many generations in Western growing conditions outside the tropics... it's comparing apples and oranges... and yes, the behaviour it showed is a result of breeding against the trait (selecting out the genes) of expressing stress flowers --- and note - you're in Med conditions, ACE work in Med conditions --- it's the same point

 

[ngakpa]

Yeah, I think all cannabis plants have the "hermi" preservation trait in one form or another and at very large spectrum of sensitivity levels

Trick would be as you said to pick the ones that dont do that... whatever the stress

The plants might not be as stressed in their native environment so the the hermi trait that they are genetically pre-disposed are not a factor

Its going to be a factor in a new place with different temps, wind, rain, light...

Genetic and environment technically....but its hidden in the genetics

this is exactly the point:

a trait can't be selected against when it isn't being expressed

 

[ngakpa]

From my experience, I think exposure to rain in this case has very little to do with altering the quality of the terpenes

hi there,

well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

I can tell you that, from the perspective of Himalayan farmers (and afaik 99.9% of farmers outside the Himalaya), a year when your fields take rain during full flower is a bad year

and bear in mind, Himalayan farmers are growing for resin, not bud

from their perspective, rain is detrimental to quality and yield

 

[meizzwang]

if your grow is an objective assessment of this issue, then

50% of plants in Lebanese hash fields will be hermies,
100% of plants in the Nanda Devi fields will be hermies
and so on...

sorry to be blunt, but that is very fucking obviously not going to be the case - right?

It has been stated earlier that small sample sizes skew results, there hasn't been any suggestions that 50% of Lebanese plants in the field are hermis. That said, a sample size of 4 Lebanese plants aren't enough to draw any conclusions, these are merely observations.

Out of 18 RSC landrace females, 5 hermied under these Mediterranean climate conditions, or 28%. Based on these preliminary findings, my question, not hypothesis, is will others in Mediterranean climates also have similar results if they start with 30 or more original landrace seeds?

CBG sells Durban, and on the description of their seeds, they warn that despite 4 generations of selection, they say hermis are possible. I want to know why. This got me thinking about how we can preserve these landraces outside of their region of origin and not have the hermi traits displayed, that's the whole point of this conversation! To get to the root cause. There have been some suggestions on what to do, and the better we are able to refine and preserve these landraces, the more we can draw interest to them!

 

[meizzwang]

Here's the main cola on the nanda devi, looks beautiful once all cleaned up. I'll give this one a nice long cure, but will also do preliminary sampling to get a glimpse of the effects. It smells VERY different from Kumaoni, more skunky and fuel with perhaps some sweetness in the background:

 

[ngakpa]

It has been stated earlier that small sample sizes skew results, there hasn't been any suggestions that 50% of Lebanese plants in the field are hermis. That said, a sample size of 4 Lebanese plants aren't enough to draw any conclusions, these are merely observations.

Out of 18 RSC landrace females, 5 hermied under these Mediterranean climate conditions, or 28%. Based on these preliminary findings, my question, not hypothesis, is will others in Mediterranean climates also have similar results if they start with 30 or more original landrace seeds?

CBG sells Durban, and on the description of their seeds, they warn that despite 4 generations of selection, they say hermis are possible. I want to know why. This got me thinking about how we can preserve these landraces outside of their region of origin and not have the hermi traits displayed, that's the whole point of this conversation! To get to the root cause. There have been some suggestions on what to do, and the better we are able to refine and preserve these landraces, the more we can draw interest to them!

Hi

I think you've interpreted me as saying that it is Mediterranean conditions that caused the stress - but obviously that isn't going to be it... (I mentioned the Med in the contect of the Panama strain, a tropical cutivar, being adapted to the Mediterranean through the selection work done in Spain)

I have no idea what factors actually did cause the stress - there are likely to be several

if I was going to speculate I would guess that a probable factor is how close they were planted to the wild plants, which are highly competitive

the landraces are likely to have rooted deep (unlike many pot-bred modern hybrids) and in the process could have been growing among the root space of the shrubs around them, which are 'weeds' i.e. highly competitive wild plants that typically secrete substances in the soil around them to deter competitors

but that is pure speculation, nothing more

in answer to your question:

other growers in Med conditions are highly unlikely to have 28% of their hash plants pop male flowers - this is why I've responded to your posts

unfortunately nothing I can say is going to change the fact that there will be plenty of people who have read them and thought "I'm not going to grow RSC's stuff because it's going to hermi on me"...

note: Lebanon is on the Eastern Mediterranean

I already mentioned a guy in Greece who grew out all the RSC strains this year outside and had no hermis... he then did a grow in pots moving indoor/outdoor and had hermis - but that is just one example and mainly illustrates my point about environmental hermis vs. inherent hermis

also note: the plants you have been reporting problems with are hash plants, and thus grown fully seeded, which means they have no selective pressure for this trait

Durban is not a direct comparison because it is a ganja cultivar, and ganja cultivation does involve selective pressures that can results in true hermaphrodites (because females are grown unseeded or lightly seeded with males cut early)

about your final point:

it's pretty straightforward:

the way you select against the stress response trait is by only using seeds from plants that don't show it...

 

[meizzwang]

After a decent cure, the high hasn't changed on the Kumaoni, I'm still not very impressed by any of the 3 different plants, but keep in mind, that's a small sample size to judge the strain as a whole. It could have easily been the luck of the draw. Manipuri, on the other hand, which has been rained on for much longer than the Kumaoni, has an outstanding high and decent flavor in my opinion, this is why I question the rain modifying the terpene/quality of high hypothesis. Here are the positives of Kumaoni:
1) amazing gigantic leaves! Biggest I've seen in person.
2) high resin production, so this makes it a good candidate for breeding. From my experience, unlike malana, nanda devi, lebanese, and manipuri, which were difficult to get good yields, Kumaoni gives a great rosin yield when you "squeeze" the buds. Also, the resinous leaves gave a high yield of bubble hash.
3) unique aroma-spicy, but not like the old dutch strains, there's a twist to it that's hard to describe. I wouldn't quite say citrus, but I can see how others would interpret it as such.
4) amazing colors! One pheno turned purple from cold stress: the leaves turn dark purple, but the calyxes stay mostly green. The Kumaoni inflorescence pictured below is way past its prime, never got around to harvesting it all. No hermi traits on this individual despite being exposed to light frost, heavy rain, heavy wind, and many cloudy, dark days followed by sunny days, and overall cold days and countless near freezing nights. One out of the three Kumaonis hermied. If it was completely environmentally induced, you'd expect all three individuals to have hermied. This is why I believe some individuals are more genetically predisposed under certain environments to hermi expressions while others aren't:

5) great fiber production!
6) while I didn't personally like the high (too one dimensional, and seemed boring/dull for me), it's very different from any of the hundreds of strains I've tried in my lifetime. Others might like it, so it's worth checking out if you're looking for something very different.
7) most likely has medicinal properties to it.
8) aroma was very uniform in all 3 plants, so this might mean Kumaoni has gone through decent selective pressure.

 

[thejact55]

Nice well rounded write up. Thanks.

 

[Land]

Kumaoni indoor seed run

Kumaoni indoor seed run

 

[farmerlion]

Thanks all, this was a great read. I have 3 packs of the Nanda Devi, 1 of the RSC Lebanese. A couple packs of the Ace Lebanese. These will make up the majority of my 2019 greenhouse growing at 49N in North Dakota.

I look forward to running these genetics. I haven't had an issue with hermies in the past. I love the genetics from this part of the world. As they tend to mature well here in my environment.
Peace. MedDakotabis

 

[farmerlion]

Did you harvest yet or are the girls still going?

 

[Land]

Kumaoni male X Malawi Gold Update

Kumaoni male X Malawi Gold Update

This plant has great colors and a strong lemon citric aroma. This genotype also had the strongest stem rub aroma in veg.

 

[thejact55]

Nice lookin plants land. What kind of smells you getting from that seed run?

 

[Land]

Thanks, the smells from the Kumaoni seed run indoors was a citric sweet floral that turned more herbal and citric when drying.

 

[Land]

The broader leafed plant (biggest) and most branched had the more tangy citric aroma and best terpene and trichome production while the other plants were less citric and more sweet. The stem rub on the best male was spot on banana sherbert.

 

[meizzwang]

Great to hear Land, the kumaoni seed batch sound variable from year to year. I tried seeds purchased in 2016, and they all had that killer orange, pungent, Loud hashy stem rub, but even with a really nice cure, the terps. on the buds, even with a rosin squeeze, were decent but nothing outstanding. The high on Kumaoni (tested several different females) seemed lack-luster and moderate in potency. Nanda devi, on the other hand, was surprisingly potent and and an A+ quality high, but I don't recall the flavor being noteworthy whatsoever. Of course, there's high diversity in these seeds, so it seems you'll have to run a lot to find the gems worth preserving or breeding with. Also of interest, aside from these two strains being literally trees, there's definitely a very high male to female ratio in the seed run that I did for both Kumanoni and Nanda Devi. That's part of the fun with landraces, they're still quite wild and interesting!

 

[acespicoli]

I love these authentic landrace cultivars,
Appreciation and gratitude to RSC for making these available

 

[meizzwang]

tried nanda devi twice, bought a 12 pack the first time, and 2 12 packs the second time. First time, 3/12 sprouted. On the second round, 3/24 germinated. 2 males, one female. One of the males was really vigorous with great branching the other was shorter, but had a much stronger stem rub. Pollinated both males to this one female, which looks a bit feral.

I think low germination of Nanda Devi has to do with the fact that the seeds were of poor quality: perhaps the original source didn't store the seed properly (I sure as hell know the distributor carefully stores them well, but they have no control over the quality before they acquire them). I tested the hypothesis that using rich, organic soil will help increase germiation rates, results weren't repeatable here. Anyways, this plant will have lots of seeds to experiment with, and you can be assured they will be dried and stored properly! Will keep you all posted in the future about germination rates.

can't see this, but the stigmas are light pink in color. Not yet mature enough to get a sense of what this smells like:

nanda Devi to the left, Kerala to the right. The kerala is surprisingly fast flowering, I have landrace indicas that will finish later!

Seeds developing on Nanda Devi: