Try it on a portion...if it works--then you have taught us something; if it fails--then you have joined others in making sizable contribution to the Root Aphid God.
-
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~~Root Aphids~~ A Couple Of Alternatives For 100% Irradication...(DARK SIDE COCKTAIL)
- Thread starter EclipseFour20
- Start date
hydrodreams
Member
Yeah, some questions can just be answered if one gave it a try....But since I also have fliers, I am very reluctant to go with your method....
Nukem from the flying skull works wonders. An application of 2 ozs per quart of water for a soil drench. I really haven't found any bug nukem won't kill.
hydrodreams
Member
Eclipse
How do you know that its actually the riptide and/or the orthene that kills the aphids? Did you ever try a plain water drench? Maybe the aphids are rather drowning then anything else....
Just curious.
Hydrodreams
How do you know that its actually the riptide and/or the orthene that kills the aphids? Did you ever try a plain water drench? Maybe the aphids are rather drowning then anything else....
Just curious.
Hydrodreams
Cuz...in my testing, neither one worked 100%, but when combined--it always achieved 100% eradication.
When I reduced doses to 1 gram per gallon of Orthene--it seemed to be hit and miss. At 5 grams it worked, but that awful odor took days to go away.
We recently did a grow environment and he did not buy enough Orthene & Riptide (miscounted the plants...stupid stoner...lol). So we used 2.2 grams of Orthene and 2.5 ml of Riptide (instead of 3.3 grams & 5 ml) and it worked like clockwork. His soil is super efficient with high CEC and water absorbing abilities.
Hope this helps.
hydrodreams
Member
Thanks a lot Eclipse
You contributed a lot here regarding this problem....
I just wish you also tried met52, so we would have somebody here who tried all the classic means known so far for a comparison.
What success rate would you give met52 after all you have read?
You contributed a lot here regarding this problem....
I just wish you also tried met52, so we would have somebody here who tried all the classic means known so far for a comparison.
What success rate would you give met52 after all you have read?
Sorry Hydro--I am rather ignorant about Met52. Perhaps someone that knows/uses the product will chime in with the answer.
hydrodreams
Member
It's ok Eclipse, met52 never met your criterion as you said...
But what is your theorie about how you and your succesfull friends got rid of the fliers, since a drench doesn't affect fliers?
How dangerous is Orthene regarding vaporation=>inhalation and skin- contact/ absorption in your opinion after all your research?
Thanks a lot again
Hydrodreams
But what is your theorie about how you and your succesfull friends got rid of the fliers, since a drench doesn't affect fliers?
How dangerous is Orthene regarding vaporation=>inhalation and skin- contact/ absorption in your opinion after all your research?
Thanks a lot again
Hydrodreams
IMHO, flyers still originate from the soil, since I have not seen them congregating on leaves and stems. Riptide should take care of the adult flyers (just like it does with adult fungus gnats) while Othene will take care of the younger Root Aphids.
If anyone is real twisted as to which method--and how much to use, may I suggest you select the worst plants and try different strategies. The plant that has the least number of RAs and the most vibrant would be the strategy I would implement.
That is how I did it; experimented on the worst (figuring I really had nothing to lose--but everything to gain). Then to be responsible, I tweaked the dosage down until I noticed a change in the effectiveness of active ingredient (trying to use the least amount of poison).
Orthene has a peculiar odor, sorta cross between rotten food and unrefined petroleum. But since I do not advocate spraying the plant, the stinky fart smell will remain in the soil, but it dissipates in about a day or so; small tradeoff for zero Root Aphids. Not too offensive, just noticeable.
I wear black nitrale gloves (Home Depot Mechanic variety) every time I work with ANY pesticide (organic or non-organic). But those gloves are not the best when dunking 5 gallon containers in 18 gallon bucket--but the thick long sleeved chemical gloves ($7 at Harbor Freight) are perfect. Yes...I would wear gloves when working with BOTH Orthene (granules) and Riptide (liquid)...if not, your hands will dry out (finger tips will crack/split near the fingernails--hand moisturizer will take care of it).
I do not wear any respiratory protection when working with the Orthene + Riptide...but I do when mixing my soil, particularly when working with perlite, fossil shell flour, and vermiculite. A simple bandana (cowboy style) works great.
Besides effecting fungus gnats...I was told yesterday that a grower got rid of his spider mites. He dunked his plants earlier this month and noticed some mite activity on the leaves. He wanted to wait about 10 days before spraying for mites, and when he inspected the plants yesterday--he could not find a single mite. I don't have mites right now...but the next time I will try an Orthene dunk and see what gives.
And for the record, it has been almost 2 years since Root Aphids visited my perpetual grow and without question, I would use the Orthene + Riptide again...as opposed to any other RA strategy.
Hope this helps guys!
If anyone is real twisted as to which method--and how much to use, may I suggest you select the worst plants and try different strategies. The plant that has the least number of RAs and the most vibrant would be the strategy I would implement.
That is how I did it; experimented on the worst (figuring I really had nothing to lose--but everything to gain). Then to be responsible, I tweaked the dosage down until I noticed a change in the effectiveness of active ingredient (trying to use the least amount of poison).
Orthene has a peculiar odor, sorta cross between rotten food and unrefined petroleum. But since I do not advocate spraying the plant, the stinky fart smell will remain in the soil, but it dissipates in about a day or so; small tradeoff for zero Root Aphids. Not too offensive, just noticeable.
I wear black nitrale gloves (Home Depot Mechanic variety) every time I work with ANY pesticide (organic or non-organic). But those gloves are not the best when dunking 5 gallon containers in 18 gallon bucket--but the thick long sleeved chemical gloves ($7 at Harbor Freight) are perfect. Yes...I would wear gloves when working with BOTH Orthene (granules) and Riptide (liquid)...if not, your hands will dry out (finger tips will crack/split near the fingernails--hand moisturizer will take care of it).
I do not wear any respiratory protection when working with the Orthene + Riptide...but I do when mixing my soil, particularly when working with perlite, fossil shell flour, and vermiculite. A simple bandana (cowboy style) works great.
Besides effecting fungus gnats...I was told yesterday that a grower got rid of his spider mites. He dunked his plants earlier this month and noticed some mite activity on the leaves. He wanted to wait about 10 days before spraying for mites, and when he inspected the plants yesterday--he could not find a single mite. I don't have mites right now...but the next time I will try an Orthene dunk and see what gives.
And for the record, it has been almost 2 years since Root Aphids visited my perpetual grow and without question, I would use the Orthene + Riptide again...as opposed to any other RA strategy.
Hope this helps guys!
sheick, I agree that Met52 is very difficult to find. It is still a new product and un-known to most people. Have your local store call 214.335.9496 in colorado and they will dial you in with met52 on a store level. they will also ship to you direct.
Hydro, I have used met for a year know and it does work. It is a way of killing RA's without using systemic chemicals. Ecliplse is correct in his evaluation that Met52 is not an overnight fix. That is the big misunderstanding of Met52. People expect an overnight fix on most problems. Met52 is a natural solution that may take weeks to kill off RA's or in some cases take months for people that have perpetual gardens. Just be patient with Met and it will reward you. While using met you will notice a decrease in population overtime unitil one day they are gone. Met does not leave any oily residue on roots or stunt your growth in any way. It is recomended to use approx 3 grams per one gal of growing media but if you already have an infestation then you can triple the amount used without any side effects to the plant. Once RA's are gone then backoff to the recomended rate as a preventive and you should remain RA free if you have clean grow habbits. My friend combines met52 with benfecial nemotodes to keep RA's away. Its a little expensive using both but he makes up for it with killer crops everytime. One last thing about killing RA's and Met52, you will notice more flyers in the room while using Met. I believe that the RA's sense the presence of MET and develope wings to adapt and escape. You will need to treat for flyers or they will come back. You can go the cheap route by dropping Pyrethium bombs every two weeks until problem is gone or Met makes a liquid now that also works. Its pricey at $225 a one liter bottle but it makes upto 200 gallons foliar. Met foliar has worked well at killing off mites, whiteflies etc. All met products can be used upto day of harvest bc they are food and feed grade. I hope this info helps you on your journey on killing off those little fuckers!
Hydro, I have used met for a year know and it does work. It is a way of killing RA's without using systemic chemicals. Ecliplse is correct in his evaluation that Met52 is not an overnight fix. That is the big misunderstanding of Met52. People expect an overnight fix on most problems. Met52 is a natural solution that may take weeks to kill off RA's or in some cases take months for people that have perpetual gardens. Just be patient with Met and it will reward you. While using met you will notice a decrease in population overtime unitil one day they are gone. Met does not leave any oily residue on roots or stunt your growth in any way. It is recomended to use approx 3 grams per one gal of growing media but if you already have an infestation then you can triple the amount used without any side effects to the plant. Once RA's are gone then backoff to the recomended rate as a preventive and you should remain RA free if you have clean grow habbits. My friend combines met52 with benfecial nemotodes to keep RA's away. Its a little expensive using both but he makes up for it with killer crops everytime. One last thing about killing RA's and Met52, you will notice more flyers in the room while using Met. I believe that the RA's sense the presence of MET and develope wings to adapt and escape. You will need to treat for flyers or they will come back. You can go the cheap route by dropping Pyrethium bombs every two weeks until problem is gone or Met makes a liquid now that also works. Its pricey at $225 a one liter bottle but it makes upto 200 gallons foliar. Met foliar has worked well at killing off mites, whiteflies etc. All met products can be used upto day of harvest bc they are food and feed grade. I hope this info helps you on your journey on killing off those little fuckers!
Repost from: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6098582&postcount=2361
Another update: The 2/3 rate of my Original Orthene+Riptide still works. After trying everything "OMRI listed", a local 30+ light "organic" grower used my "chem recipe" to eradicate Root Aphids...and "would do it again" (his words).
What sold him was the minimal effect acephate has on the microherd and its tiny half-life--
"A Hanford loamy sand, a Domino silt loam, and an Altamont clay loam were treated separately with three repeated applications (20 ppm) of the organophosphate insecticides, acephate (O,S-dimethyl acetylphosphoramidothioate) and Monitor (O,S-dimethyl phosphoramidothioate) over a 50-day time span. Population levels of actinomycetes, bacteria, and fungi were not substantially affected by the addition of either pesticide. Neither could a marked effect be shown upon ammonification, nitrification, sulfur oxidation, or respiration rates. Replica plating failed to isolate bacteria from soils that were adversely affected by either pesticide. It is concluded that neither acephate nor Monitor had any adverse effect upon soil microorganisms."
Source: https://www.agronomy.org/publications/jeq/abstracts/3/4/JEQ0030040327?access=0&view=pdf
Acephate has a soil half-life 0.5 to 3 days and is not a systemic...unlike Imid, with a "soil half-life" of 26.5-229 days or a "hydro half-life" of 997 days.
See report....http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/acephate.pdf
Eclipse's Revised Orthene + Riptide routine (very effective for soil mediums--mixed results for hydro mediums):
1 gallon water
2.29 grams Orthene (97.4% Acephate)...1 gram = 1 ml, more or less.
2.5 ml Riptide (5% pyrethrin, 25% PBO)
1. Let the grow medium dry out first, do not dunk if grow medium is wet/super moist.
2. Dunk for 20-30 minutes (bottom first, let the container sink and then submerge it such that the container lip/grow medium is submerged by 1".
3. Drain, no flushing, no rinsing, no nutes.
4. Let grow medium dry out a bit before first feeding...first feeding brews consisting of minerals, nutrients or bacteria seem to be more beneficial than concoctions of "everything". DO NOT ADD ZYMES TO THE FIRST FEEDING; it seems there is an increase in "plant lock-up" (some plant fatality) if zymes are introduced 10-14 days following many pesticide dunks.
5. Foliar spray with a root growth booster for a few days, 1-2x daily.
My favorite rooting spray (for clones, seedlings, fussy pussies, etc) is:
1 gallon water
7.5 ml Rhizotonic
0.25 grams Urea
Adding Urea to a foliar spray has shown to increase plant's uptake of the spray's active ingredient (it takes between 30 minutes and 2 hours before 50% of Urea's nitrogen is absorbed into the plant's tissue).
Final thoughts--those big 18 gallon party buckets (for ice & beer bottles) make great dunking containers...a few of em can certainly speed up the dunking time for those with a "goodly number" of 5 gallon sized growing containers (and cheap too!) If the grow medium is loaded with other poisons/pesticides from prior attempts, I would flush well and let the grow medium dry out...before attempting my Orthene + Riptide cocktail (think soup, salt...and too many chefs). Drier the grow medium before dunking--the better (zero fatalities), wet grow medium seems to be no bueno! No enzymes for at least 2 weeks...as "plant lock up" seems to be the common result.
Feel free to PM any questions...btw, still Root Aphid FREE! (knocks on wood)
Cheers!
Another update: The 2/3 rate of my Original Orthene+Riptide still works. After trying everything "OMRI listed", a local 30+ light "organic" grower used my "chem recipe" to eradicate Root Aphids...and "would do it again" (his words).
What sold him was the minimal effect acephate has on the microherd and its tiny half-life--
"A Hanford loamy sand, a Domino silt loam, and an Altamont clay loam were treated separately with three repeated applications (20 ppm) of the organophosphate insecticides, acephate (O,S-dimethyl acetylphosphoramidothioate) and Monitor (O,S-dimethyl phosphoramidothioate) over a 50-day time span. Population levels of actinomycetes, bacteria, and fungi were not substantially affected by the addition of either pesticide. Neither could a marked effect be shown upon ammonification, nitrification, sulfur oxidation, or respiration rates. Replica plating failed to isolate bacteria from soils that were adversely affected by either pesticide. It is concluded that neither acephate nor Monitor had any adverse effect upon soil microorganisms."
Source: https://www.agronomy.org/publications/jeq/abstracts/3/4/JEQ0030040327?access=0&view=pdf
Acephate has a soil half-life 0.5 to 3 days and is not a systemic...unlike Imid, with a "soil half-life" of 26.5-229 days or a "hydro half-life" of 997 days.
See report....http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/acephate.pdf
Eclipse's Revised Orthene + Riptide routine (very effective for soil mediums--mixed results for hydro mediums):
1 gallon water
2.29 grams Orthene (97.4% Acephate)...1 gram = 1 ml, more or less.
2.5 ml Riptide (5% pyrethrin, 25% PBO)
1. Let the grow medium dry out first, do not dunk if grow medium is wet/super moist.
2. Dunk for 20-30 minutes (bottom first, let the container sink and then submerge it such that the container lip/grow medium is submerged by 1".
3. Drain, no flushing, no rinsing, no nutes.
4. Let grow medium dry out a bit before first feeding...first feeding brews consisting of minerals, nutrients or bacteria seem to be more beneficial than concoctions of "everything". DO NOT ADD ZYMES TO THE FIRST FEEDING; it seems there is an increase in "plant lock-up" (some plant fatality) if zymes are introduced 10-14 days following many pesticide dunks.
5. Foliar spray with a root growth booster for a few days, 1-2x daily.
My favorite rooting spray (for clones, seedlings, fussy pussies, etc) is:
1 gallon water
7.5 ml Rhizotonic
0.25 grams Urea
Adding Urea to a foliar spray has shown to increase plant's uptake of the spray's active ingredient (it takes between 30 minutes and 2 hours before 50% of Urea's nitrogen is absorbed into the plant's tissue).
Final thoughts--those big 18 gallon party buckets (for ice & beer bottles) make great dunking containers...a few of em can certainly speed up the dunking time for those with a "goodly number" of 5 gallon sized growing containers (and cheap too!) If the grow medium is loaded with other poisons/pesticides from prior attempts, I would flush well and let the grow medium dry out...before attempting my Orthene + Riptide cocktail (think soup, salt...and too many chefs). Drier the grow medium before dunking--the better (zero fatalities), wet grow medium seems to be no bueno! No enzymes for at least 2 weeks...as "plant lock up" seems to be the common result.
Feel free to PM any questions...btw, still Root Aphid FREE! (knocks on wood)
Cheers!
Bongstar420
Member
I had 100% kill with:
50% dose of imidacloprid, 100% dose pyrethrin, 100% dose rotenone, 100% dose neem isolate, 100% dose PBO, and some other stuff off the shelf to enhance efficiencies (super cheap, widely available, and proprietary). It probably won't do much without the additives.
BTW, pyrethrins actually last much, much longer in soil than on leafs as O2 and light are faster at breaking down than microbes.
Plants nearly died though and would have under less experienced hands.
If you use rotenone, they stop feeding immediately...in my case, that didn't matter-they were all gone in 10 min
Predators were unaffected and the only thing to be found 3 days after treatment.
Beneficial nematodes crashed and only found one breeding pair after treatment....
This treatment is months away from flower and in the smallest volume pots for the grow. My grow is 5% exposed to this treatment and is otherwise not exposed to any synthetic pesticides. The rest of the program is organisms mentioned around the forums. Flowering plants do not recieve sprays of any kind and do not recieve pesticides which can be absorbed by the plant (for instance, I don't use neem in flower even in soil because the plants absorb some and the byproducts persist despite not showing on pesticide screens- med patients tend to be sensitive and I'd rather maintain my integrity and not ever have a pesticide complaint)
Healthy Cocktail--24-48 oz to be applied every other day
1. Epsom Salts 5 ml/gal- Good Cheap Stuff; Main Staple Nute- don't buy as fert, buy cheap from grocery as thats food grade stuff
2. Canna Rhizotonic 8ml/gal Waste- Glomus mossae is the only relavent VAM which can be purchased that is not ubiquitious
3. Hygrozyme 8ml/gal- Waste- bacteria constantly release enzymes
4. Hormex 5ml/gal- Use tryptophan at 5mg per gal if you care about auxins in the soil (wheat straw tea will do it- be careful)
5. Seaweed Extract/Liquid Kelp 15ml/gal- Waste- use kinetin if you care about too much stretch and not enough bush
6. Great White Mycorrhizae (1/2 scoop)- Refer o Rhizotonic
7. Use Compost Tea instead of water for extra bacteria- Main Staple, put them hours in and be rewarded
I don't see why Bifentrhin is "better" than PBO health wise- your link is busted and teh PBO breakdown says its a low risk runoff candidate meaning it breaks down rapidly. I don't see why "OMRI" certified means anything..just tell your lab what you did and they will find the residue if it exists- thats the only meaningful measure.
It does look like it would be an effective protocol anyways. Just be sure to inform your customers exactly where, what, and when you spray or get out of the market.
They follow you in when you enter the grow room. The flyiers are around most of the season depending on which species. People shouldn't expect to ever get 100% eradication except for temporary..ultimately, you want to have a room which doesn't notice their existence. The sprays are only to catch up when you drop the ball which should only happen 1 time- the first time you discover them in your grow.
Fortunately for me, I had most of the resistance in place and this is my first time ever seeing anything with RA in 10 years. I suspect several of my standard horticultural practices reduces the population levels of these buggars substantially..that and apparently many of my plants are just plain resistant to the things. I could have been growing with these things for years and am only now noticing them because I never noticed anything put poor root health and occasional fliers which I thought were standard aerial species coming in through the wind.
50% dose of imidacloprid, 100% dose pyrethrin, 100% dose rotenone, 100% dose neem isolate, 100% dose PBO, and some other stuff off the shelf to enhance efficiencies (super cheap, widely available, and proprietary). It probably won't do much without the additives.
BTW, pyrethrins actually last much, much longer in soil than on leafs as O2 and light are faster at breaking down than microbes.
Plants nearly died though and would have under less experienced hands.
If you use rotenone, they stop feeding immediately...in my case, that didn't matter-they were all gone in 10 min
Predators were unaffected and the only thing to be found 3 days after treatment.
Beneficial nematodes crashed and only found one breeding pair after treatment....
This treatment is months away from flower and in the smallest volume pots for the grow. My grow is 5% exposed to this treatment and is otherwise not exposed to any synthetic pesticides. The rest of the program is organisms mentioned around the forums. Flowering plants do not recieve sprays of any kind and do not recieve pesticides which can be absorbed by the plant (for instance, I don't use neem in flower even in soil because the plants absorb some and the byproducts persist despite not showing on pesticide screens- med patients tend to be sensitive and I'd rather maintain my integrity and not ever have a pesticide complaint)
Healthy Cocktail--24-48 oz to be applied every other day
1. Epsom Salts 5 ml/gal- Good Cheap Stuff; Main Staple Nute- don't buy as fert, buy cheap from grocery as thats food grade stuff
2. Canna Rhizotonic 8ml/gal Waste- Glomus mossae is the only relavent VAM which can be purchased that is not ubiquitious
3. Hygrozyme 8ml/gal- Waste- bacteria constantly release enzymes
4. Hormex 5ml/gal- Use tryptophan at 5mg per gal if you care about auxins in the soil (wheat straw tea will do it- be careful)
5. Seaweed Extract/Liquid Kelp 15ml/gal- Waste- use kinetin if you care about too much stretch and not enough bush
6. Great White Mycorrhizae (1/2 scoop)- Refer o Rhizotonic
7. Use Compost Tea instead of water for extra bacteria- Main Staple, put them hours in and be rewarded
I don't see why Bifentrhin is "better" than PBO health wise- your link is busted and teh PBO breakdown says its a low risk runoff candidate meaning it breaks down rapidly. I don't see why "OMRI" certified means anything..just tell your lab what you did and they will find the residue if it exists- thats the only meaningful measure.
It does look like it would be an effective protocol anyways. Just be sure to inform your customers exactly where, what, and when you spray or get out of the market.
They follow you in when you enter the grow room. The flyiers are around most of the season depending on which species. People shouldn't expect to ever get 100% eradication except for temporary..ultimately, you want to have a room which doesn't notice their existence. The sprays are only to catch up when you drop the ball which should only happen 1 time- the first time you discover them in your grow.
Fortunately for me, I had most of the resistance in place and this is my first time ever seeing anything with RA in 10 years. I suspect several of my standard horticultural practices reduces the population levels of these buggars substantially..that and apparently many of my plants are just plain resistant to the things. I could have been growing with these things for years and am only now noticing them because I never noticed anything put poor root health and occasional fliers which I thought were standard aerial species coming in through the wind.
Last edited:
Bongstar...I think you are seriously misrepresenting my conclusion.
I direct you to 5th post in that thread...
Ok?
I direct you to 5th post in that thread...
Ok?
RedBeardy5
Active member
Eclipse method worked for me. I ended up tossing them because I was concerned about the imid I used that did not work. But I think the secret ingredient is the Orthene.
Hey Eclipse. You said you had mixed results in hydro. I'm using coco, any thoughts on that?
FRANKIE1579
Member
Kontos. Kontos. Kontos. Kills in 1 application. 2 to be safe. Have never seen an infestation that it did not eradicate. Use at .5 ml a gallon monthly as preventative. 1 ml a gallon for heavy infestation. Kills on contact and systemically.
