?Riddle Me This?

[sergentjunk]

Simple riddle here: What the fuck happened? LOL

Ok, this IS my first grow. Out of three ladies, one is having an issue. I am in the process of seeing if all my research is helping at all, in the meantime though I want to see if anyone here has any thoughts. These pics were taken about two weeks ago(two weeks in to flowering). Originally I was treating this as a soil grow because I didin't know any better. Doing the research after the problem presented itself(ya I'm a genius like that), found I was doing just about everything wrong you could imagine. Don't know how the two good fems turned out so good, beginners luck I guess. But this one is/was kicking my ass. I THINK she's on the road to recovery, but I'll have to wait a day or two to see if the changes I made are for the better or worse.

History: Up to flowering (four weeks ago) was giving them 6.5PH water, from my municipal tap source: 700PPM. Watering too infrequently with nutes. After I did my homework, started to use RO water: 30PPM and rebalanced water to 5.9PH. Now the two good plants get a steady diet of 900PPM and 5.9PH RO water with nutes. I am still curious as to what happened to this, and only this, plant. Also if it's recoverable??????

I mix my nutes and CalMag+ to reach the previously mentioned PPM levels.
For the problem plant, I am easing her back in with 600PPM solution and the destruction seems to have subsided, but that's it. No new positives with her, just no more negatives(which I guess could be considered a positive LOL). She did get very tall(some stretching during veg) and had to tie her down. Not really into bondage, but she seemed to need it...such a bitch. My problem here is I did the same thing for all plants, and she's the only one exhibiting these symptoms: discolored (yellow/rusty), curled up, twisting, deformed leaves.

Stats: Homebox XS Grow tent(2x2x4)
Botanicare Ready Grow moisture formula(coco/perlite)
Botanicare Pro Grow for veg(not being used anymore since in flower)
Botanicare Pro Bloom
Botanicare CalMag+
Botanicare Clearex for flushing
250W HPS
81* solid temps
Humidity 45%
Lights on 8PM to 8AM
Water in their morning around 830PM every day. Hand watering.

Pics 1 through 3 are of the problem plant and her leaves. The last pic are the two good plants. Since these pics, the good plants' bud sites and top (cola?) have doubled in size and are blowing up. The bad plant has either gotten worse, or stayed the same...depending on the day. I will post updated pics tonight, I just wanted to get the ball rolling(I love troubleshooting plants at work).

Thanks in advance for insight everyone, it is very appreciated!

*junk

 

[yortbogey]

kinda looka like heat stress and leaf curl....need better ciculation, and better air exchange....not just blown old hot air around......and lower temps would help...........

 

[sergentjunk]

Knew there had to be a form somewhere:

How long has this problem been going on?: 5weeks

Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents): Homebox(claim to be safe, who knows. other two plants are fine)

What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...): Handwater

What STRAIN are you growing? No Clue

What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?): Seed

What is the age of your plants?: 3months

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..): 2.5months

How tall are the plants?: 1.5'

What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?: Flower

What Technique are you using?: Technique? Please excuse my ignorance

What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.):Coco/Perlite

What is the Water temperature?78*

What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?:White. No

What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless): Botanicare Pro Bloom/CalMag+

How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? 200PPM of CalMag+. 700PPM of Pro Bloom

How often are you feeding? (If using soiless): Feed for two, flush on the third day

How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless): Feed for two, flush on the third day

If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?:3 weeks ago

What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect):CalMag+ 1st to water, then nutes to calmag/water

What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using?900

What is the pH of the "Tank"?No tank, handwater

Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? I calibrated my Hanna tester

When was your last watering?Last night

What is your water temps?:78*

When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional): Last night

How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?: Every night

What size bulb are you using?: 24w HPS

What is the distance to the canopy?: 8"

What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?: 45%

What is the canopy temperature?Don't know, only room temp known

What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range):81*

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.): dayton exhaust 92cfm, inline duct from a/c unit for intake w/4" can fan to boost cold air

Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?: See above

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?:2 auxillary fans for circulation

Is your water HARD or SOFT?:RO water...I have no idea

What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?:Started with municpal, been using RO for the last two weeks

Are you using water from a water softener?:No

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched: No

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?:No

Are plant's infected with pest's: None that I can see

*junk

 

[sergentjunk]

kinda looka like heat stress and leaf curl....need better ciculation, and better air exchange....not just blown old hot air around......and lower temps would help...........

Forgot to mention: I have a cold A/C duct with a 4" inline can fan for intake, and a dayton 92cfm for exhaust, plus two auxillary fans inside for circulation. Is that enough? Also, if it was heat or circulation, wouldn't all three be affected? No that I doubt you Yort, these are just questions that pop into my head, and I'm trying to figure out the logic of only one plant having issues. Seems if there was something wrong, wouldn't ALL plants be affected. I hate being new at something LOL.

Thank you Yort!

*Junk

 

[Weedninja]

Also, if it was heat or circulation, wouldn't all three be affected?

Not necessarily, the leaves closest to the light are burnt the worst if its a heat issue. Try holding a thermometer right where a burnt leaf is for a few minutes and see what your reading is.

 

[sergentjunk]

Not necessarily, the leaves closest to the light are burnt the worst if its a heat issue. Try holding a thermometer right where a burnt leaf is for a few minutes and see what your reading is.

Nice...I get it now. That one is directly under the lamp, but tied lower than the others. I held my hand over the top just now and it does feel pretty warm. Maybe I can swap sides with the other one, or turn my lamp around.

Thanks Yort and Weedninja.

I'll get some updated pics soon

*junk

 

[yortbogey]

congratz bubba....maybe just try rotat'in the girlz everyday.....or raize that light , or tie 'em down more.....oc blast'em w/ a/c

 

[Citizen024]

Ummm- that looks to me like it is some P burn, maybe N too. The up curl, the burn between the veins. Heat/light burn doesn't do that- that is more like a bleaching fried look.

I have a feeling you got your medium toxic more in one container some how, maybe it dried out faster and concentrated more- just a wild guess.

I know your flushed before, but if your into it I would suggest testing your run off (shake water out of them after about 5 minutes after you water). IF it's higher then what you water in, then you know you have a build up. And even if its not, you could still have toxic level of some element around. Flush like CRAZINESS if you feel your needing too again and watch your run off till its tds is near as clean as the water you run into it. And seeing as your tap is a wholloping 700, I would use your RO, since its only one plant. It could take quite a bit.

Treat with enzyme solution and micro-critter tea to help revive. B1/Kelp are good to for recovery.

Could very well be your lights are a factor (they can dry the medium and there by concentrate nutrient even if they aren't too close), but that burning between the veins in the third pic is classic P excess (or so I believe). I suggest comparing to the sick plant thread rather then just take my word. Nutrient excess for sure though, I am positive in that.

Even your health plants show signs of the strain in the warping of the lower leaves. They might just have been a heartier variety, since your growing from seed.

I use less CalMag with coco, about 100-150, and that has N in it too. Pure Blend is one of my fav nutrients ever; you could definately notch it up by adding a nice yummy sugar product, and/or Pure Blend Soil Bloom to it to make it extra juicy. Just my 2 cents.

 

[kushism]

yeah i am going to agree with citizen here.. His(citizens) descriptions and the pics posted match the symptoms for a pretty serious nutrient lockout causing toxic buildups and deficiencies.. Excellent advice citizen
It's always good advice to watch for light burn and if necessary rotate or tie down.. great advice all around

 

[sergentjunk]

Great info Citizen!!! Thank you very much, that is sooo helpfull.

I was thinking it was nute related, but wasn't sure which nutes and if it was a def or burn. Either way I'm sure the whole problem originated with lockout and not watering enough. Like I said, before I knew any better...I was treating this as a soil grow. So I was only watering 2 maybe 3 times a week. So if I made a nute solution, it would sit in there and dry, harden, and turn to salt and burn the roots if my thinking is correct. This was all up until those pics were taken: June 30th.

The new regimen (after the 30th) is watering every night, feeding for two and flushing on the third...with the exception of the problem plant. The night before last (Tuesday night) I flushed heavily and was able to get the PPM down to 200...I have been testing runoff for the past two weeks also, so ya I'm all sorts of into that Citizen LOL.

Sort of using her as a guinea pig to learn from now...I skipped a watering (Sunday night). Well Monday she let me now exactly how much she didn't like that (she is very expressive). So Tuesday I flushed...the PPM's started out at 600 in the runoff, and like I said was able to get it down to 200 before I ran out of water. The PH however was 6.1, after I had administered 5.8 PH water...so it's rising only in that plant. The other two have a PH runoff identical to the PH input. I don't use tap AT ALL anymore.

Last night I fed the two good plants with 1000PPM solution at 5.8 PH. Fed the problem plant with 800PPM solution at 5.5 PH, knowing it would rise. On a hunch, and before I read Citizen's post, I added a bit more calmag to the solution thinking the problem might be partly due to a mag def for any number of reasons.
The runoff of the good plants was 600PPM after a 1k PPM input.
The runoff of the bad plant was 400PPM after a 800PPM input.

So there it stands. After the last set of pics, I have new ones posted. There is a two week gap in pics and you can really see the progress:

1st pic is the top of the plant
2nd pic is the damage a little farther along
3rd pic is a little more damage
4th pic is how it starts...at the edges and works in

 

[sergentjunk]

More pics:

1st is the whole plant...she is curvy, but because I had to tie her down (with what else? Hemp Cord! LOL)
2nd is the top from the side

I have to say, compared to the pics from June 30th...she is showing imporvement...I think LOL.

 

[sergentjunk]

Now for the good news. These are my good girls. All of them stretched a bit while they were young, but it looks to me like they will yield some good stuff.

Opinions on these at all??? I think they look great, for my first grow. I just want to eat 'em LOL.

Thanks for all the input everyone!

BTW...thank you to whomever left me some rep points. I'll get it eventually, I THINK she is doing better already...just needed some TLC.

*junk

 

[sergentjunk]

I know this is a long shot...but I do have one more question:::

Is there ANY way to even guess what strain these might be by looking at them??? I know there are a ton of strains out there, but I've never asked this question, and well...never hurts to ask.

*junk

 

[Citizen024]

Great recovery!!

Great recovery!!

Way to go man!! Looks like your pulling em right back into the happy place. Glad to be of help, thank you for the feedback.

On the downlow: I worked at a shop for a couple years part time some years ago, got pretty good at solving problems, design consults, etc. Been around all scales and styles.

I had to play with coco a good amount to get it down, once you do it will ROCK for you on the regular. They look really yummers, way to go! Pretty good for you first shot, I can just imagine the grin you must have on your face when your tending to them. Get some sweeter product, you won't be disappointed. I recommend Sugar Daddy or Sweet (Sweet has a berry flavor added to it, which you may or may not want). Use about 10ml/gal, you can take it up to 12-15 if you want, but you don't need to use 20ml (per the label).

Your burned one has been stressed enough that it will most likely effect yeild, but she has taught you a whole lot. Cut away all the dead stuff, it can be a vector for other nastiness you don't want to deal with.

Treating coco like soil is a common problem, but it sounds like you did all the right things to assess and correct your problems, starting with reading a bunch. It's the right way to get good at what your trying to do, so keep up the great work!

I posted my coco run to waste techniques/style/nutrient usage (about 95% organic in flowering and balls out growth!) as a reply to another post. If you like message me and I will copy it over for you, think you might dig it.

My GUESS on strain: some sort of sat/indica hybrid. Maybe a 9 to 10 weeker, packing on weight towards the end. Can't be more specific.

 

[sergentjunk]

Way to go man!! Looks like your pulling em right back into the happy place. Glad to be of help, thank you for the feedback.

Oh they're happy alright. You're welcome and thank you!

Pretty good for you first shot, I can just imagine the grin you must have on your face when your tending to them. Get some sweeter product, you won't be disappointed. I recommend Sugar Daddy or Sweet (Sweet has a berry flavor added to it, which you may or may not want). Use about 10ml/gal, you can take it up to 12-15 if you want, but you don't need to use 20ml (per the label).

As a matter of fact, you should have seen the grin when I blew up one of the photos that was on the macro setting. I'll post it below. I am going to get some Sweet, Hydroplex, and Liquid Karma next week. I would like the flavor of the sweet actually. Do you think it's too late to start the LK and the Sweet?? I wasn't sure about that or if there is such a thing as too late with those products.

Your burned one has been stressed enough that it will most likely effect yeild, but she has taught you a whole lot. Cut away all the dead stuff, it can be a vector for other nastiness you don't want to deal with.

Treating coco like soil is a common problem, but it sounds like you did all the right things to assess and correct your problems, starting with reading a bunch. It's the right way to get good at what your trying to do, so keep up the great work!

If things would have gone smoothly, I would know almost nothing more than when I started. I'm actually thankful this happened...just to learn from. Don't get me wrong, I know I'm not a genius...but I know a shitload more now than I did 2 weeks ago and am better for it. I also want her for the seeds. She's crossed with a different strain now (left the male in long enough to blow his nut), so I really want the seeds. Thanks for the compliments! I'll be posting updates as I go along, and might as well keep them on this post just to stay consistent, unless a mod sees fit to move it from the infirmary and into the normal grow section.

Yes Citizen...I will be hitting you up for that link. I would totally dig that.

Peace, and thank you everyone!

*Junk

This is nice when zoomed in. Almost want to post it in the trich photo section. Truly is a magical plant.

 

[Grand Funk]

Ya hafta realize, growing bagseed ya never know what yer gunna get. Shit, sometimes growing known seed is the same. Some hybrids that look indy in veg, will flower like a sat, and be more nute picky. Just learn as you go brother. Learn as you go.

 

[sergentjunk]

Ya hafta realize, growing bagseed ya never know what yer gunna get.

Ahhhh...so true. Thanks for the reminder. See it's these little things I forget LOL. I should smoke more, maybe I'd remember more . I am learning a TON GrandFunk, and I'm loving it. This is so cool, I wish I could garden for a living. Not just Cannibas, but anything else too. I just really like this. I was watching The Union again last night, and there's a part in there where someone briefly mentions what an obsession growing can be. That's where I'm at...I'm totally obsessed with this. My girl makes fun of me now...but it's all good. We'll see who's laugh after harvest. It was her idea to cross the two strains, and I'm really excited to see what comes out of it.

Update: Two nights ago I fed heavily...the two good plants got a dose of 900PPM with a runoff of 800. The problem plant got a dose of 600 with a runoff of 400. Percentage wise, she seems to be feeding more...am I correct in assuming that???

Last night I flushed and brought the two plants from 800 runoff to 170 runoff. The problem plant cam from 400 down to 140. I also trimmed the damaged parts of the leaves off of the problem plant...not wanting to cut the whole leaf off because I would like to leave something for the plant to work with as far as photosynthesis goes, as there are not many fan leaves left. I checked this morning before the lights went off, and all three look incredible. Even on the good plants, there were a couple points on some of lower the leaves that were either curling under or over....as of this morning that is all gone and the points are pointing straight out now. The problem plant seems to be extremely happy, no more new damage, and some of the fan leaves are extremely long, longer than my finger. She's happy me thinks, and she is STINKY LOL!!

I can't express how much I appreciate everyone's help. Hopefully when I become more knowledgeable I can return the favor!

I'll keep everything updated every couple of days with pics when there are substantial changes. Next grow I will keep a complete log for all to see.

*junk

 

[kushism]

When i feed heavily i slamm my bubba with 2200-2400 ppm of nutes and they take it like champs, no burn, no curling, nothing.. now the OG doesn;t like PPM's so high. It prefers 1800 max.. now i am not using coco or soil.. I am glad you were able to figure out what was going on. Being aware of PH and PPM's is crucial sometimes.. I agree with a forementioned post. 700 ppm in you muni tap water is really high.. I would look into a cheaper RO unit or even a faucet or under the sink mounted filter to try and bring the ppm's down.. I live in a huge city, and my muni water is at 240-260 ppm, with a ph of 7.0-7.2.. I am so picky i do not like those numbers.. I want a R/O unit so bad..

With the 1000's of genetics, strains and hybrids out there it is impossible to tell what strain you are growing other than the sativa/indica characteristics.. in the end you might get lucky and have such a strong plant with a 1 of a kind flavor you might be able to compare to another known strain..

Keep up the good work bud!!! ICMag is the best!

 

[sergentjunk]

Damn Kushism...22-24k?! LOL...would never venture into that realm...yet . I'm sure I'll get better and actually know what the limits of the plants I'm growing are. I think that's great, if I could hit 'em with that much food I'd love it. I'm just learning how to read the plants right now. It's funny, when you start to get a feel for how the plants respond, or "talk" to you...it starts to get so much easier. Just have to learn their language.

700 ppm in you muni tap water is really high..

Ya I quite using that shit a few weeks ago after learning how bad it was. I started to use distilled, then fond a water store 2 seconds from my house...so now it's allllllll RO water. I have already started looking into some ro systems on ebay. I want one so bad too! So now for the past week or two I've been using RO that starts at about 26PPM and a PH of 8+. So when I add nutes...it's all nutes and I know exactly how much of what is going in there. Then of course adjust PH accordingly, then test runoff, make my assessment there. It's funny, I've learned that the problem plant prefers a much lower PH than the other two. She likes it around 5.7, the other two 5.9 to 6.1...fucking fascinates me lol.

I figured there was no way of knowing the strain, there are a ton! I thought I would at least ask though.
Thanks for the all the positive feedback! Good to know I'm doing a good job. Ya, ICMag is turning out to be a really cool place for me.

peace

*junk

 

[kushism]

you hit the nail on the head bud controlling as many of the variables as you can is just another way to ensure happy plants.. the differences in what the plants need comes from being different genetics. sounds like you are on your way!!! Keep up the good work..