Reversed Backcrossing:)

[cork144]

very true amoril.

Selection is key in it all, id go as far as cross testing females to females all over taking notes and find the 2 mothers producing the best seeds.

My breeding project with the cheese isnt realy about finding cheese seeds, more on bringing back the heavy smelling skunks, trying to recreate what was being popped back in 1988 or so.

 

[englishrick]

very true amoril.

Selection is key in it all, id go as far as cross testing females to females all over taking notes and find the 2 mothers producing the best seeds.

My breeding project with the cheese isnt realy about finding cheese seeds, more on bringing back the heavy smelling skunks, trying to recreate what was being popped back in 1988 or so.

yeh man,,,,,i like the way you put that,,,,,,,,,,

i would also like a real SK1 line from the 80`s.....an Cheese is a grate start for that ,,,thats for shure!

 

[cork144]

another thing to point out is, we dont know how cheese grew from seed, so the only real way to compare your plants to the real cut, is to wait till sexual maturity from seed, compare clones from the seed grown plant and the cheese.

 

[Forest20]

I have a feeling we are overlooking one think "weed" is an indefinite breed it may stay the same, but is always evolving. ie. taste, style, prefence, etc...

 

[cork144]

I have a feeling we are overlooking one think "weed" is an indefinite breed it may stay the same, but is always evolving. ie. taste, style, prefence, etc...

correct, im almost dam sure from seeing other plants grown, with the newer genetics, are growing alot differently in the cheese's grow style, in working with a cheese line i wouldnt settle for anything less than this growth structure.

some say its because its a clone, but im damn sure i havnt seen ANYTHING be this branchy.

breeders these days are breeding "uniform" cannabis, same nodes same places ect, its cannabis blanding, sure your potancy and yeilds ect may be increasing..

we may have so many strains open to us, But weve lost the diversity in cannabis now.

 

[englishrick]

correct, im almost dam sure from seeing other plants grown, with the newer genetics, are growing alot differently in the cheese's grow style, in working with a cheese line i wouldnt settle for anything less than this growth structure.

some say its because its a clone, but im damn sure i havnt seen ANYTHING be this branchy.

breeders these days are breeding "uniform" cannabis, same nodes same places ect, its cannabis blanding, sure your potancy and yeilds ect may be increasing..

we may have so many strains open to us, But weve lost the diversity in cannabis now.

i wish you could see the UK blues clone,,,,,its got an identical veg structure to Cheese,,,,,,,,,its like they are identical twins!!,,,,,,,,,,that zig zag veg structure is the key to our fave bit in Cheese ,,, imo,,,,,,

so, if cheese is 1, never to be found again,,,,,,,why is the blues sooooo similar.......

trust me, that genome has more to offer than the Cheese clone,,,

 

[cork144]

so, if cheese is 1, never to be found again,,,,,,,why is the blues sooooo similar.......

I dont know anything at all about the blues, just read about it in afew of your posts soi knew it existsed, is it also a sk#1?

 

[Forest20]

I was just smoking any was wondering? Could their be a placebo effect with weed? Its what "we" make of it?

 

[englishrick]

correct, im almost dam sure from seeing other plants grown, with the newer genetics, are growing alot differently in the cheese's grow style, in working with a cheese line i wouldnt settle for anything less than this growth structure.

i think Cheese Veg structure is a dom Aco.gold trait,,,,,,if so,,that is why you dont see that Veg structure mutch in the newer hybrids,,,,Aco.gold is allmost impossible to find nowadays

some say its because its a clone, but im damn sure i havnt seen ANYTHING be this branchy.

veg maturity is a defo connected to terp profile,,,,thats for sure,,,,

an the only way to pull the true terp profile, is to work from clones that have allready reached veg maturity....

i think Cheese has been the same since 6months after it was germinated!

breeders these days are breeding "uniform" cannabis, same nodes same places ect, its cannabis blanding, sure your potancy and yeilds ect may be increasing..

we may have so many strains open to us, But weve lost the diversity in cannabis now.

most breeders dont have a clue,,,,,the word IBL has been imprinted in Canna history by sam, an revived by Rez,,,,if you dont want bland smoke dont grow an F1`s,,IBL`s and F2`s will show you the real keepers


an we aint lost IT yet,,,,,the genomes are still available from propper breeders,,,,look at TomHills DeepChunk

 

[englishrick]

I dont know anything at all about the blues, just read about it in afew of your posts soi knew it existsed, is it also a sk#1?

id put money on BLUES AN CHEESE both coming from SK1,,,,,,i think both are from a similar year at Sensi Seeds

not the same pack,,,,,,but probbly the same mothers and farthers....imo

but you have to remember ,,,,THE BLUES IS OLDER THA CHEESE,,,check it out

 

[Colina]

I'm presuming the numbers that will be grown out will be small therefore drift will come into play also overdominance may play a part hence lack of vigor .sterility etc will occur quickly. But I'm no expert and certainly need to read more on the subject .....

With cheese x cheese S1 there is no outcrossing or are we looking at sib crossing? Think I need to read shull more !!!!!

Kopite

I was kind of half expecting a discussion on things like genetic load, epistasis, linkage etc, but still think Rick should just self the clone already, and see what happens.

 

[Pops]

Rick, if duplicating the "stink" is your goal, do you know if terpenoid expression is monogenic or polygenic. Is it affected by environment? If monogenic, it may be simple to reproduce,but if polygenic, may take many,many plants and an excellent nose.

 

[grimweeder]

rick mate, i thought about doin wot your doin aswell with the cheese an/or some cali elites if i could get hold of em. but after reading through loadsa posts an a bit in that marijuana botany book i dont think it will work not that well on the clone only strains anyways. still worth selfing tho to see wot happens. variation can be a good thing.
ive always been under the impression that cheese, blues and psychosis are all skunk1 phenos. they all have similar smells an growth structure plus its wot a lot of people seem to think, so would it not be an idea to cross the cheese with say the blues an work from that, as your not selfing an puttin the dna in a head on collision with itself so the results will be more stable an probalby wot your after. jus need to hope that one of them is a good donator for the pollen an doesnt hermie easily.
goodluck to ya tho on however you wanna do it man.

psychosis x cheese = killer cheese (feminised.) sounds like a plan....

 

[kopite]

would also like a real SK1 line from the 80`s.....an Cheese is a grate start for that ,,,thats for shure!

IMO it isn't a good starting point... "cheese" is a sport for whatever reason, virus or whatever it mutated over time...

people have been thru SS SK1 packs and never found anything like "cheese"

so, if cheese is 1, never to be found again,,,,,,,why is the blues sooooo similar.......

maybe its related to "cheese" could of been a bx project or sim.....

at the time it was reported the lads that got "cheese" via sensi also had Silver pearl and if memory serves me right Shiva....

all of which have sim characteristics as closely related.......

if the aim is to get as close to "cheese" as poss I would of thought a recurrent backcross program would work best as I believe you need to get to S7 or S8 gen before you reach over 90% likeness where as its 99.4% with 6 backcrosses for the Recurrent program....

I was kind of half expecting a discussion on things like genetic load, epistasis, linkage etc, but still think Rick should just self the clone already, and see what happens.

With the subject matter being "cheese" I think epistasis would be a big part... with regards to linkage and the small numbers involved I would of thought the recombination would be severely effected especially as SamS reported that by S3 the plants were extremely weak etc but then we'd get on to disequlibrium (since asexual reproduction)... even when genes on the same chromo are inherited together the progeny could show unexpected results....

 

[englishrick]

i hope all this make sence,,,,,,,it took me ages to write it and im still a lil confused myself

I'm presuming the numbers that will be grown out will be small therefore drift will come into play also overdominance may play a part hence lack of vigor .sterility etc will occur quickly. But I'm no expert and certainly need to read more on the subject .....

With cheese x cheese S1 there is no outcrossing or are we looking at sib crossing? Think I need to read shull more !!!!!

Kopite

hay kopite.......what do you mean by a Sib Crossing?



unfourtunatly, Yeh! the numbers will be small,,,,so genetic drift or allelic drift will be an issue,,,, relative frequency is an interesting subject,,,,,


genetic frequencies can be predicted by way of a polyhybrid Mendelian cross. but phenotypic frequencies are a different matter, especially if they are complicated by environmental factors.


i would like to understand more about Linkage disequilibrium,,,,i feel inducing Linkage disequilibrium could be the soloution to my problem with genetic drift or allelic drift...this could also be a soloution to all my other issues too




when you say "overdominance" do you mean Epistasis because Epistasis is a bitch, an it will make things harder for me ,,,im just gona have to try my luck with the small numbers, an atempt to target the expresions an dominan alleles via my crude observations,,,

it might help if i knew of more method`s of identfication.....im only using my eyes and nose at the min....i would love to find cells whose chromosomes have the same allele.....

with the techniques im using, i assume im not moving towards heterozygous genes, my aim is to create homozygous genes!!,,,so hopefully il get lucky


the only problem is:how do i identification of dom alleles,,,,,,i wish i could just keep working the line, up-untill i get most of genes homozygous,,,,but i guess depreshion WILL be a major factor at some point


any ideas guys?




For the peeps who dont know what im talking about....

Epistasis takes place when the effects of one gene are modified by one or several other genes, which are sometimes called modifier genes. The gene whose phenotype is expressed is said to be epistatic, while the phenotype altered or suppressed is said to be hypostatic.


Basicly:In general, the fitness increment of any one allele depends in a complicated way on many other alleles


tightly linked genes can easly have epistatic effects ,,,,,the effect can occur directly at the genomic level, where one gene could code for a protein preventing transcription of the other gene....... Alternatively, the effect can occur at the phenotypic level....... For example, the gene causing albinism would hide the gene controlling color of a person's hair.

I was kind of half expecting a discussion on things like genetic load, epistasis, linkage etc, but still think Rick should just self the clone already, and see what happens.

i have the opertunity to spray a Cheese clone any day now......but im having probs deciding on what method to use for revercing,,,,,,,McSnapplers Easy GA3 Methood sounds good,,,,,what do you think?,,,,,,all i need is the liquid in a spray bottle and the job is done,,but i cant quite get my head round it yet!,,,,its driving me crazy

Rick, if duplicating the "stink" is your goal, do you know if terpenoid expression is monogenic or polygenic. Is it affected by environment? If monogenic, it may be simple to reproduce,but if polygenic, may take many,many plants and an excellent nose.

fantastic point,,,,,,,,,,,quantitative traits and polygenic inheritance......cool

i wonder if ive ever seen a trait that is not polygenic,,,,i emagine the stink is probbly polygenic

the big question is: if the stink is polygenic.....is it posible to target that group of traits acurately?.....id like to try,,,,hopefully i wont lose the vital bits when the genome splits at S1 or S2

any ideas?

 

[englishrick]

rick mate, i thought about doin wot your doin aswell with the cheese an/or some cali elites if i could get hold of em. but after reading through loadsa posts an a bit in that marijuana botany book i dont think it will work not that well on the clone only strains anyways. still worth selfing tho to see wot happens. variation can be a good thing.
ive always been under the impression that cheese, blues and psychosis are all skunk1 phenos. they all have similar smells an growth structure plus its wot a lot of people seem to think, so would it not be an idea to cross the cheese with say the blues an work from that, as your not selfing an puttin the dna in a head on collision with itself so the results will be more stable an probalby wot your after. jus need to hope that one of them is a good donator for the pollen an doesnt hermie easily.
goodluck to ya tho on however you wanna do it man.

psychosis x cheese = killer cheese (feminised.) sounds like a plan....

blues x cheese is something i was going to do seperate from this project...

i dont think il need to test Blues x Cheese ither,,,it will just be killer strait off the bat,,,imo

 

[englishrick]

IMO it isn't a good starting point... "cheese" is a sport for whatever reason, virus or whatever it mutated over time...

people have been thru SS SK1 packs and never found anything like "cheese"



maybe its related to "cheese" could of been a bx project or sim.....

at the time it was reported the lads that got "cheese" via sensi also had Silver pearl and if memory serves me right Shiva....

all of which have sim characteristics as closely related.......

if the aim is to get as close to "cheese" as poss I would of thought a recurrent backcross program would work best as I believe you need to get to S7 or S8 gen before you reach over 90% likeness where as its 99.4% with 6 backcrosses for the Recurrent program....



With the subject matter being "cheese" I think epistasis would be a big part... with regards to linkage and the small numbers involved I would of thought the recombination would be severely effected especially as SamS reported that by S3 the plants were extremely weak etc but then we'd get on to disequlibrium (since asexual reproduction)... even when genes on the same chromo are inherited together the progeny could show unexpected results....

i think Chimera might say 6 Bx`s is totaly exessive,,,,,,i think his notes said something about not achiving anything after Bx2

 

[kopite]

i think Chimera might say 6 Bx`s is totaly exessive,,,,,,i think his notes said something about not achiving anything after Bx2

yes from memory his plan goes to BC3 F2 to attain 93% of the recurrent parent

 

[Elevator Man]

All this chat about Cheese being a unique sport of Skunk #1 is really interesting, but sadly, it's about the opposite of what I know - structurally, in my experience it's the most common type of 'commercial' weed available, and was kind of disappointing to me when I finally tried it.

The branchiness Rick wrote about is common to the blues (or livers) and the Mystery Strain too, and they've been around for well over 15 years now. The f3 skinny Blueberry I'm revegging now has an even more exaggerated branching structure than any of the above - I'm also revegging an Oaxacan Gold, which looks very similar in early regrowth.

So I think there's more than a grain of truth in the Mexi-link for branching - however, as far as Cheese goes, it's just another one of 'those' strains, IMO. I don't know anyone who's kept the clone now, funnily enough - my mate's kept the Chumboldt, but not the Cheese. Of course, the blues and others may all originate from the same bunch of people too, but I have my doubts on that.

 

[englishrick]

the reason why Cheese is unique`ish,,,,,,, is because of a combination of multifactorial inheritance and polygeneric traits ,,,,,,,, the interactions between two or more genes and their environment is making Cheese what it is....imo,,,,,polygenic traits do not follow patterns of Mendelian inheritance (qualitative traits). ,,,,,this is why Cheese is unique`ish