Reverse engineering all those bottled nutrient blends

[MisterBlah]

So, I've been lurking here for a long while. Just never felt the need to contribute yet. So, I created an account and I have some interesting information to share with everyone.

Some short background: I don't actually use the expensive bottled blends. Never have. Never will. I engineer all my own using software very similar to HydroBuddy.

I realized it's a piece of cake to reverse engineer the mineral based liquid and dry fertilizer blends that are so common on the consumer market. This post will show you how accurate the work I'm doing is. I'm not storing a shit ton of these on a forum post, so go to my blog for the actual blends: http://www.open-salt.com/fertilizer-database/

Anyway, this list will show how close you can actually get to the stated guaranteed analysis. Sometimes you can reach the number exactly, and other times you will be off by a small percentage. The reason you may be off by that small percentage is related to the laws behind fertilizer labeling and not due to a lack of trying to reach the exact number or otherwise. I’ve written a short article about that here: Commentary on the Laws Behind Fertilizer Labeling

Cultured Solutions Veg A:

Veg A has a guaranteed analysis that is the following,:
N total: 5%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 4.6%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.4%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 0%
Potassium, K2O: 0.3%
Calcium, Ca: 6%
Magnesium, Mg: 0%
Combined Sulfur: 0%
Iron, Fe: 0.057%
Copper, Cu: 0.0035%
Boron, B: 0.015%
Manganese, Mn: 0.017%
Molybdenum, Mo: 0.001%
Zinc, Zn: 0.003%

Derived from:
Ammonium Calcium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Iron EDTA
Copper EDTA
Manganese EDTA
Sodium Molybdate
Sodium Borate
Zinc EDTA

Here is what you need to get that:

Calcium Nitrate: 315,130 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 6483.4 mg/l
18% EDTA chelated Iron: 3,166.6 mg/l
18% chelated Manganese: 944.44 mg/l
15% chelated Boron: 1,000 mg/l
20% chelated Zinc: 150 mg/l
17% chelated Copper: 205.88 mg/l
8% chelated Molybdenum: 125 mg/l

This creates a blend that has the following percentages:
N total: 5.000%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 4.653%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.3466%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 0%
Potassium, K2O: 0.3%
Calcium, Ca: 5.987%
Magnesium, Mg: 0%
Combined Sulfur: 0%
Iron, Fe: 0.057%
Copper, Cu: 0.0035%
Boron, B: 0.015%
Manganese, Mn: 0.017%
Molybdenum, Mo: 0.001%
Zinc, Zn: 0.003%

You’ll notice I did not have any ammoniacal nitrogen sources, or it appear that way. I do not use specifically Ammonium Calcium Nitrate. This is because the Calcium Nitrate I used has a little bit of N-NH3 in it. It’s the Haifa GG Calcium Nitrate. You can buy it from some local fertilizer re-salers.

I also did not use a sodium molybdate or borate and instead decided to use the chelates. I did this because I try to reduce the amount of sodium I use in my hydroponic solutions as it tends to be bad to have above 75ppm of sodium in solution. When growing in soil it is less of an issue.

EDTA is a type of chelate, Iron tends to come in lots of types and the type determines the availability within a ph range. Chelation describes a particular way that ions and molecules bind metal ions. It makes them available to the plants in ways that they otherwise might not be when in solution. To put it simply.

Cultured Solutions Veg B:

Veg B has a guaranteed analysis that is the following,:
N total: 1.3%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 1.3%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 2.0%
Potassium, K2O: 5.9%
Calcium, Ca: 0%
Magnesium, Mg: 1.0%
Combined Sulfur: 1.3%

Derived from:
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulfate

Here is what you need to get that:

Mono-Potassium Phosphate: 38,457.32 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 98,518.52 mg/l
Magnesium Sulfate: 102,040.80 mg/l

This creates a blend that has the following percentages:
N total: 1.33%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 1.33%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.0%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 2.0%
Potassium, K2O: 5.889%
Calcium, Ca: 0.0%
Magnesium, Mg: 1.0%
Combined Sulfur: 1.327%

Net cost when you buy and measure this out: about $5-10/gallon instead of ~$45 per gallon.

Cultured Solutions Bloom A:

Bloom A has a guaranteed analysis that is the following,:
N total: 3.7%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 3.5%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.2%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 0%
Potassium, K2O: 3.0%
Calcium, Ca: 3.5%
Magnesium, Mg: 0%
Combined Sulfur: 0%
Iron, Fe: 0.09%
Copper, Cu: 0.0035%
Boron, B: 0.01%
Manganese, Mn: 0.017%
Molybdenum, Mo: 0.002%
Zinc, Zn: 0.007%

Derived from:
Ammonium Calcium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Iron EDTA
Copper EDTA
Manganese EDTA
Sodium Molybdate
Sodium Borate
Zinc EDTA

Here is what you need to get that:

Calcium Nitrate: 181,781.6 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 64834.04 mg/l
18% EDTA chelated Iron: 5,000.0 mg/l
18% chelated Manganese: 944.44 mg/l
15% chelated Boron: 666.67 mg/l
20% chelated Zinc: 350.0 mg/l
17% chelated Copper: 205.88 mg/l
8% chelated Molybdenum: 250.0 mg/l

This creates a blend that has the following percentages:
N total: 3.73%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 3.53%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0.20%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 0%
Potassium, K2O: 3.0%
Calcium, Ca: 3.45%
Magnesium, Mg: 0%
Combined Sulfur: 0%
Iron, Fe: 0.09%
Copper, Cu: 0.0035%
Boron, B: 0.01%
Manganese, Mn: 0.017%
Molybdenum, Mo: 0.002%
Zinc, Zn: 0.007%

Cultured Solutions Bloom B:

Bloom B has a guaranteed analysis that is the following,:
N total: 0.9%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 0.9%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 4.8%
Potassium, K2O: 6.2%
Calcium, Ca: 0%
Magnesium, Mg: 0.75%
Combined Sulfur: 1.0%

Derived from:
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulfate

Here is what you need to get that:

Mono-Potassium Phosphate: 92,297.58 mg/l
Potassium Nitrate: 65,007.48 mg/l
Magnesium Sulfate: 76,530.61 mg/l

This creates a blend that has the following percentages:
N total: 0.878%
Nitrate-N, N-NO3: 0.878%
Ammoniacal-N, N-NH4: 0%
Urea-N, N-NH2: 0%
Phosphorous, P2O5: 4.8%
Potassium, K2O: 6.2%
Calcium, Ca: 0%
Magnesium, Mg: 0.75%
Combined Sulfur: 1.0%

 

[MisterBlah]

Also, seriously, I can't edit the main post?

 

[mack 10]

Not till you get 50 posts.

Interesting thread, I know some other members make their own blends too.

 

[MisterBlah]

Well, the point of this is to make the transition from bottled nutrient blends to making your own a lot easier.

It's like cooking. You just follow a recipe.

 

[JohnKimble]

There is this company called RAW or something that sells just the basic ingredients to make your own nutes. I wouldn't make my own stuff though, I'll let other people handle that and sell me a ready made product, I dont believe in being a jack of trades and expert at nothing. I'm a gardener, not a chemist. You gotta stick to one field. lol

 

[clovethee]

IMO a lot of ready-mades have more N than necassary for flowering. bone meal and water are pretty good for flowering. expermenting is fun.

 

[Avenger]

chelated boron? chelated molybdenum?

I assume you are using Biomin from jh biotech, did you include the nitrogen from these sources in your ammonium nitrogen content?

and why do you want to copy some commercial formula? why not make a custom formula specific to your needs and water source?

 

[juzsumguy]

Nice idea, but this isn't reverse engineering is it?

When you reverse engineer it you send it to a lab, pay thousands of dollars and they get you back a reverse engineered analysis.

You just read what's on the label and replicate that. Well that's cool but many stuff is left out intentionally out of their labels. So you never get it quite right. There is fe a Canna Coco recipe out here. It looks good, sounds good and yet many people who have used it say it's nothing like the Canna food and burns the shit out of their plants.

Having said that, many supplements can be made easy by yourself if they don't have fancy stuff in it thats not labeled, PGR, Hormones, Tria ... So yeah a simple pk 13/14 booster is easy peasy, replicating Canna Boost or Atami Bloombastic is quiete another thing.

I know this a little cause i wanted to make a public database and contacted nearly all Fert Brands for our plants for Info and got it for most of them. But then i became to lazy to update it especially after my keyboard got fucked i lost the detemination to finish it.

my tip: go to washington and oregeon agrar fertilizer database for shit thats not listed on the label. So you get at least a kinda guaranted analysis, at least for n-p-k + micros.

Nevertheless, good luck.

 

[MrBungle]

honestly.. put this effort into making your own solution that works for you.. who cares what fox farms or advanced thinks should work in your world.... you are trying to copy something that isnt that great anyways... they leave shit out of their formulas so you have to buy another bottle.. and change the concentrations so you run out of some faster than others so you get stuck using their crap.....

its all a racket

 

[Lester Beans]

Welcome to icmag!

I'll be sticking to botanicare. Easy and cheap. Damn that looks like a shit ton of work to source all that and mix it up. I would rather spend my time brewing teas.

Nice of you to post the info!

Hope you enjoy your stay here!

 

[MisterBlah]

chelated boron? chelated molybdenum?

I assume you are using Biomin from jh biotech, did you include the nitrogen from these sources in your ammonium nitrogen content?

and why do you want to copy some commercial formula? why not make a custom formula specific to your needs and water source?

Of course I include the nitrogen content if I use the Biomin chelates. But that's also not the only chelate that you can get. There are probably 10 different companies that manufacture chelated micronutrients.

Nice idea, but this isn't reverse engineering is it?

When you reverse engineer it you send it to a lab, pay thousands of dollars and they get you back a reverse engineered analysis.

Water quality analysis is not nearly that expensive. And after I'm done with going about this based off guaranteed analysis, that is, labeling that is required by law, I will start getting these analyzed by a lab.

You just read what's on the label and replicate that. Well that's cool but many stuff is left out intentionally out of their labels. So you never get it quite right. There is fe a Canna Coco recipe out here. It looks good, sounds good and yet many people who have used it say it's nothing like the Canna food and burns the shit out of their plants.

I know this. And I know it's due to what is required by law to be on the label. Some labels are more accurate than others.

Having said that, many supplements can be made easy by yourself if they don't have fancy stuff in it thats not labeled, PGR, Hormones, Tria ... So yeah a simple pk 13/14 booster is easy peasy, replicating Canna Boost or Atami Bloombastic is quiete another thing.

I actually do know what Canna Boost is. It's based around Triacontanol and B-Vitamins.

my tip: go to washington and oregeon agrar fertilizer database for shit thats not listed on the label. So you get at least a kinda guaranted analysis, at least for n-p-k + micros.

Nevertheless, good luck.

You mean this database? http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/ProductDatabase.aspx
Yeah, I do use that.

honestly.. put this effort into making your own solution that works for you.. who cares what fox farms or advanced thinks should work in your world.... you are trying to copy something that isnt that great anyways... they leave shit out of their formulas so you have to buy another bottle.. and change the concentrations so you run out of some faster than others so you get stuck using their crap.....

its all a racket

I feel like you missed the point. And I feel like you didn't read the post at all.

Some short background: I don't actually use the expensive bottled blends. Never have. Never will. I engineer all my own using software very similar to HydroBuddy.

There is this company called RAW or something that sells just the basic ingredients to make your own nutes. I wouldn't make my own stuff though, I'll let other people handle that and sell me a ready made product, I dont believe in being a jack of trades and expert at nothing. I'm a gardener, not a chemist. You gotta stick to one field. lol

And RAW charges way to much for their product. Also, the point of this database is so people like you don't have to do much work to create your own. You would essentially be using the same recipe. Just spending a lot less money on it.

 

[MisterBlah]

Welcome to icmag!

I'll be sticking to botanicare. Easy and cheap. Damn that looks like a shit ton of work to source all that and mix it up. I would rather spend my time brewing teas.

Nice of you to post the info!

Hope you enjoy your stay here!

Thanks for the welcome.

I do plan on tackling Botanicare, but I already know that it will have to be done in 2 part mixes. If I'm honest, I think the effort they went to to find something that will prevent calcium from precipitating out in a sulfate or phosphate salt is silly, but I guess you prove the point as to why.

But cheap is definitely not correct. By mixing them yourself, you can spend about 1/4 to 1/2 of what you would spend on a bottled blend.

Anyway, keep brewing teas! That is something you can't replicate without brewing another tea!

 

[Lester Beans]

But time is money, and my time is worth a lot to me. 50$ a gallon of bloom is cheap to me, considering the results. But I get what you are saying.

 

[MisterBlah]

Well, it takes you less than an hour to make 5 gallons for maybe $50-80. And if you were making $200/hr, you wouldn't be here on a forum about growing marijuana.

 

[gardener60]

I here and read that RAW has some radical Nutes. But you have to be careful with there products. You use very little to get big gains.

 

[MisterBlah]

I here and read that RAW has some radical Nutes. But you have to be careful with there products. You use very little to get big gains.

Each and every one of the fertilizers that RAW sells is what you would use to create these blends. But don't use RAW. They are way to fucking expensive. Do a google search and you'll find sources of each of the compounds listed for a lot less money.

Seriously, if you blend your own fertilizers, you can spend 60-80% less money.

 

[Sativan]

What software do you use to do the reverse engineering?

 

[MisterBlah]

What software do you use to do the reverse engineering?

You can use Hydrobuddy to do this. http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2013/02/the-first-free-hydroponic-nutrient-calculator-program-o.html

 

[MisterBlah]

I realized I need a short tutorial on the steps you need to actually mix nutrient blends yourself. So, that's what this is.

This is a short tutorial on the physical steps it takes to mix your own nutrient stock solutions. It's awfully simple, sure, but I figured it's worth posting. I know many of you that might be on the fence will realize it's just as easy as baking or cooking.

So now you've decided you want to save a lot of money on your fertilizer blends and mix them yourself. But maybe you don't know where to start. This guide should lay it all out for you, just like a recipe for baking cookies.

First, you need to know what blend you want to make, what recipe to use. You can find a bunch of recipes in my Fertilizer Database.

Then you need your ingredients. You need to buy some fertilizers. There's a lot of places to buy them. Do a good search for each of the items on the list. Or visit websites like cropking.com, plantsthatproduce.com, Amazon, or even eBay. There are plenty that sell the fertilizers we will be using. If you're worried about what you're buying, feel free to contact me or leave a comment here. I'm happy to help.

You will also need a few tools to complete the job. You should be able to acquire everything you see here for under $75.
A balance with 0.1g precision, 0-300g range at a minimum.
A balance with 0.001g precision, 0-20g range at a minimum.
A graduated cylinder, 500mL minimum. Plastic is okay.
Two bottles for storing the mixture, you probably already have one.
Search Amazon, eBay, or any other part of the Internet to find these.

The last thing you'll need is some distilled water. Your local grocery store should sell some. Specifically distilled water though. Anything labeled "drinking water" or "spring water" will have minerals and nutrients in it that will through off the blend you are about to make. If you have an RO filtration system, water from that will work as well.

Now that you have everything, you need to create the stock solution. We are going to create a 1.0L stock solution. We are going to use a CalMag Blend with micro-nutrients as an example.

This recipe for a 1.0L stock solution uses the following:
Calcium Nitrate: 170.0g
Magnesium Nitrate: 117.7g
Fe-chelated 18%: 5.000g
Mn-chelated 18%: 2.777g
Zn-chelated 20%: 2.500g

Step 1: Measure out 500mL of distilled water with the graduated cylinder and pour it into a bottle ~1.0L in volume. Label this bottle #1.

Step 2: Weigh out macro-nutrient fertilizers(Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Nitrate) first using the 0-300g balance. Empty these into Bottle #1. Swirl it around, but do not shake it yet. It's okay if not everything dissolves at this stage.

Step 3: Weigh out the micro-nutrient fertilizers using the 0-20g balance and empty them into Bottle #1. Swirl the bottle some more. You might have noticed the chelated micro-nutrient fertilizers that I have in the recipe above are specifically the Biomins Glycine chelates from JHBiotech. There are many chelates you can use, so if you don't want to use those for this recipe that is okay. More on this in another article.

Step 4: Measure out another 300mL of water. Empty it into Bottle #1. Close the bottle. Shake and wait for everything to dissolve.

Step 5: Measure out 500mL in the graduated cylinder from the bottle that you have your stock solution in. Pour this into a second bottle. Label this bottle #2.

Step 6: Empty the remainder of Bottle #1 into the graduated cylinder and fill it up to 500mL with distilled water. Pour into Bottle #2. Bottle #2 now has your completed fertilizer stock solution.

Congratulations! You've just mixed your own liquid fertilizer blend! Now use it just like you normally would.

 

[hup234]

Help me make the original roots excelurator...thanks Mr.B