refractometer to measure brix

[Iron_Lion]

I can see for indoor growers with smaller plants doing this type of testing is probably not worthwhile. For large outdoor growers I think it's valuable. These guys are pushing things trying to maximize yields and monitoring plant health is important for disease/pest issues and still believe it helps quality. You are assuring your plants are performing at their peak. The top outdoor growers I know test their soil.

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Yeah for larger scale OD I can see where this would have more value, but for the guy running a small indoor op not so much.

Like when the scale of the operation is large enough where the grower might not have such a personal relationship with each plant or where taking off a good sized clip from a large OD plant not such a big deal but if I was to take off a few fans or a snip of a branch every week from my small IND plants there would be nothing left by harvest.

Not discounting the method just the use of a refractometer in all cases.

 

[Nondual]

We know that starting with great soil, amending properly as we go, produces the best product. Not sure I need a meter to measure brix to confirm this.

I know the value of soil, tissue and sap testing in large scale agriculture. It helps growers refine programs. It's these growers that outperform others in yield, controlling losses and crop quality. Brix is only part of the equation. Jeez you could add different teas and see how the plant actually responds.

I'm just saying how do you know it's the best product until you do some testing? You're still relying on your senses which are subjective. If testing of this type has proven it's value in open agriculture why won't it provide at least some value in growing MJ? That's what I don't get.

It's not that I don't get where some of you are coming from and in general agree. I'm just more of a science guy. That's part of what I do in the 'real' world and know the value.

 

[rrog]

I'm a formally trained science guy and love to measure. Just not seeing the need in my case with a small personal grow.

 

[EclipseFour20]

...Its hard to get a 'full drop' of MJ fluid. I could probably do it if i hacked a large enough piece off, but a large fan leave will (generally) not suffice.

I even bought a garlic press to fold the leaf up in, and juice, its just not worth the trouble.

IMO...the garlic press is great for veggies like carrots and beans, but for getting sap from leaves....these guys did it right by modifying vise grips with some stainless steel caps.

http://www.pikeagri.com/vmchk/Sap-Sampling-Presses/Modified-Vise-Grips-7-inch-/Detailed-product-flyer.html

But for $27 bucks plus shipping...I might do one myself. Until then, here is how I get 2-5 nice sized drops from 4-5 fan leaves. Kinda ghetto, but easy.

1. Cut 4-5 healthy fan leaves from the top 1/3 of the plant--retaining as much of the stem as possible.
2. Using a folded clear plastic sheet, (mine was salvaged from a clear report cover and cut to 3" x 5" and folded longways so it is 1.5" x 5") position the leaves so about 1/8" of the stem extends past the edge of the plastic. So...you have a sandwich, plastic + leaf + plastic...with the leaf section nearest the fold and all stem ends aligned...pinched together with your thumb and index finger.
3. Squeeze the sap from the leaves (I use a round tool and slowly roll it towards the stem ends as the plastic strip is resting on the table edge...similar to the action of a rolling pin) and as the sap accumulates I dab the stem ends on the refractometer.

If you squeeze/pinch the leaf stem with your fingers...you might get something--but for sure, you will have to sore fingers...and shredded leaves and stems.

That's how I do it and it works for me!

 

[EclipseFour20]

An example for why you would to test a plant's brix in a small garden. Foliar Spray; to verify that it is effective. If the brix increases after you spray, then it is good for the plant...but if one observes a decrease in brix--then the spray probably is doing more harm than good.

 

[rrog]

Assuming you feel there's value in feeding a plant through its leaves. Another debate entirely

 

[EclipseFour20]

Assuming you feel there's value in feeding a plant through its leaves. Another debate entirely

Amen brutha! Interesting pamphlet on foliar feeding that I found very valuable. https://www.midwestlabs.com/images/stories/pdfs/soil_memos/foliar_nutrition.pdf

One nugget that I gleaned is--adding a bit of nitrogen to all foliar sprays increases the plant uptake of the spray's active ingredients; makes sense as most herbicides include urea to speed up the process of plant uptake.

The second golden nugget is the discussion identifying which nutrients are "best" when foliar sprayed...as opposed to root fed.

But like our buddy rrog said...that is a another debate entirely!

 

[ShroomDr]

Im gonna order these and report back.


Irwin 23EL5 Vise Grip 8-Inch Locking Sheet Metal Tool

http://www.amazon.com/Irwin-23EL5-8-Inch-Locking-Sheet/dp/B0000TFGFU/

$21.75 out the door


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[YosemiteSam]

Listen to the link analogue posted, it is excellent.

You want to grow the healthiest plant possible is why you would use it. And here is the thing...the fastest way to lower the brix of any plant, including this one, is to overload it on nitrates. By measuring brix you can push a plant without overdoing it. It is a misconception that more nutes means higher brix just cause you are measuring solids...push a plant too far and it gets sick like a fat kid on wheat, sugar and vegetable oil.

Then you add sap pH testing on top of that and figure out how to maintain that pH at 6.4 and you ain't gotta worry about fungus or insect attack no mo...period.

If that isn't valuable to mj growing I don't know what is.

I will bet you this...most of the dwc users are going to have low brix...or lower at least cause those systems allow the user to force feed nitrate. Once they do that an endless cycle of pesticides, fungicides, shit to fight root aphids is set in motion.

Personally I can run around 11-12 in coco and up to 14 in peat. it is a fine line between enough and too much, especially nitrate nitrogen.

I use vice grips to squeeze the sap outta leaves. It should be no harder with mj than any other plant...if there ain't no sap you can bet your brix is kinda on the low side.

 

[OrganicBuds]

I'm a formally trained science guy and love to measure. Just not seeing the need in my case with a small personal grow.

You are right, small grows have no need for brix measurements. This is for outdoor growing, where you have 8 month old plants that need dialing in.

I equate measuring brix to hydro guys checking the run off water. In a lab, one would give the plants water at a certain PPM, ph, and nute levels. After feeding you would then test the run off and see what the plant used up and how it effected the run off.

Kind of the same thing with brix. If you test your plant everyday at 12 noon, and get a brix reading of 13, then that is your base. Then lets say you make a home made Tea from ingredients that you have never used before or at altered amounts. Water the plants with the tea at dawn, and by 12 noon take another sample. If your brix reading has crashed, then your tea was no good. If your brix goes up, keep that recipe.

 

[Nondual]

You are right, small grows have no need for brix measurements. This is for outdoor growing, where you have 8 month old plants that need dialing in.

While I would agree that for small personal grows it's not necessary it could still be helpul if you want to kick things up a notch. It just adds another metric you can monitor. If you can measure it you can control it. How much benefit you would gain is the question though.

As for the second part YosemiteSam uses it for indoor growing and working for him. Good info there especially about sap pH. I invited him to this thread as I remembered he had a lot of experience with some of the things we've been talking about.

I think the amount of overall benefit for the amount of energy input will be for a larger grow though indoors or out. These meters are not cheap. I used to know a hydro grower that used a LaMotte test kit to monitor their grows first and only grower I saw to use something like that...a little lab in your home. She got awesome results. No guesswork in her grows!

Thx for the input YosemiteSam

 

[YosemiteSam]

Let me add one thing that explains why I believe brix is a valuable tool in even a small grow...and I do agree it is more valuable the longer you have a plant in the ground...you let it get sick with a long time to go and you have screwed up a lot of work.

But...before I started measuring brix I would routinely run N at 150 ppm and K at 200-300. After measuring brix and tweaking around to find mo better levels of ions for brix I have ended up never feeding over 100 ppm N and my K levels now run 75-125 depending on when in the grow.

This did two things: a) it actually increased my yield a little bit and b) it made my plants go from so so tasting to the point I ain't ashamed to sit down with good organic growers for a smoke session...I mean night and day difference This happens cause when you try to jam shit down a plant's throat you tend to get some things blocking the uptake of other ions...an unbalanced diet (and btw...that also explains how foliar feeding can be so valuable, it by passes the lockout shit...say you have overfed K and locked out Mg. Putting more Mg in the soil ain't gonna help...but spraying it you can watch brix go up in 30 minutes or so...seant it with me own eyeballs).

The big sugar builders are Ca (king of all nutes and should be higher than any other ion in your mix), B, P and Mg. Get them right and balanced and then supply enough N (and of course the other things) and you will find yourself one happy grower...regardless of the size of your grow. The best chlorophyll manager I know runs a small personal grow and uses any tool he thinks will improve his grow...and backs it up with results.

Pinky swear.

edit...single biggest brix builder is achieving a base saturation (% of certain ions occupying cation exchange sites) of around 65% Ca and 15% Mg...you get that and it literally becomes hard to fuck up. Info that Cary Reams and Albrecht put out in the 50s, before big corporations started selling NPK ferts and killing our soil.

 

[praisehim.]

^^ all you guys are way too smart. Just reading your posts confuses me ! haha.

awesome tool.

 

[OrganicBuds]

While I would agree that for small personal grows it's not necessary it could still be helpul if you want to kick things up a notch.

I stand corrected again, I really meant to say that it may not be as useful of a tool for small indoor grow, compared to a large outdoor grow. However you are also correct in saying small grows can still benefit from using this tool.

 

[Nondual]

I stand corrected again, I really meant to say that it may not be as useful of a tool for small indoor grow, compared to a large outdoor grow. However you are also correct in saying small grows can still benefit from using this tool.

It's all good. I think tools like this are good when you've already got a good handle on things and really help you take it to the next level.

YosemiteSam dropping the knowledge again. Far as I'm concerned you don't see info like that often and more people just talking about what they think is happening or what they feel is working.

I know this is the Organic Soil sub section here at IC but this is great stuff...

and b) it made my plants go from so so tasting to the point I ain't ashamed to sit down with good organic growers for a smoke session...I mean night and day difference

Not to get off track with the thread title but I've NEVER run across any 100% 'synthetic' or organic based nute program grown herb that can compete with solid organically grown soil stuff. I've had some very good 'synthetic' stuff and also crap organic soil. Interesting to read a comment like that.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I know this is the Organic Soil sub section here at IC but this is great stuff...
Not to get off track with the thread title but I've NEVER run across any 100% 'synthetic' or organic based nute program grown herb that can compete with solid organically grown soil stuff. I've had some very good 'synthetic' stuff and also crap organic soil. Interesting to read a comment like that.

I actually agree with that. Not saying the synthetic salts are as tasty...just saying I got close enough not to be totally embarrassed anymore. I just chose a path and for some reason I don't fully understand it is a hard one to leave.

The absolute best I have had has all been organic.

 

[Nondual]

I loved growing hydro for various reasons. Very cool to see that working with sap readings and adjusting accordingly has provided the results you're getting. Says a lot to me about the value of testing like this. After reading that started wondering about the off-the-shelf formulas companies put out including the flavor enhancers. Maybe they're missing the boat with what they're trying to achieve? Maybe they've been looking in all of the wrong places?

 

[YosemiteSam]

I think it depends on the company. There are a couple out there that seem to care about customers, Veg + Bloom would be one. Some of the others obviously put profit first...you can recognize them by how many additives they try to sell you.

There is zero reason to have more than a two part formula period and that is legit so that Ca can be kept separate from P and SO4 in concentrated form. And I do use a combo of sucanat and citric acid for my first week of flush...ozgrower's formula and it does help a bunch.

So one of these days I have to try an indoor organic grow...probably based off what me buddy Dorje does...that man produces some tasty nugs.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Soooo many paths to the same destination! Who are we to say one method of another is "better"? That said, it seems that one's personal attributes are always reflected in their work product.

Me...I was born a perfectionist and a connoisseur by choice; so it should be no surprise that my flowers are full of flavors, aromas and potency. BTW, I am 95% indoor/organic; not all my components are on the approved "OMRI list"--and my supersativa is tossed outdoors for the last 21 days to finish up.

Sorta like Yosemite...I never tried hydro (potion A + potion B)--although I may be "willing" to try...I lack the "ability". Hmmm, maybe if I put a 10 x 10 shed where my hot tub used to be (100 amp service)...I could do hydro in the shed exclusively and still do my kick ass soil runs....hmmm.

A wise client told me once: "do what you do best...and hire the rest!"--and so far his advice has saved my ass more that once; you know--those crazy times when I started to think my capabilities were greater than my resources!

Cheers!

 

[exploziv]

just did my first brix reading. 14.5 for a clone in veg.

i used 3 small leaves and pressed them on a glass surface till i got my drop in the pipette. i guess that with the right tool I could get it from one medium leaf. using the refractometer and reading the result is very easy.

thanks again for this thread!