Question for the Smart Kids.. The Actual Breeders kind

[paladin420]

Would a plant prone to hermaphroditism show that trait if seeded?

Would it be content? Or like that Rooster in the joke? ...."Ssssshhhhh buzzards"

 

[Zapadra]

I am interested too... My suspicion is that it will still show the trait?

 

[bigbadbiddy]

With "seeded" you mean pollinated (by a regular male I assume)?

My guess (hope you don't mind as the thread is young and has few responses I hope it's ok to throw this in):

A hermy prone plant (call it plant H) would pollinate itself if left undisturbed (and if it would indeed hermy in the given environment).

Pollinating it with a regular male (call it Male R) during the self-pollinating phase (=flowering phase) would imho lead to a mix of plant H x plant H seeds and plant H x Male R seeds.

In a "normal" pollination there would be no way to tell which is which but if you pollinated by hand (with a brush for example), you could mark the branches/budding sites in question and separate the plant H x plant H and plant H x Male R seeds.
But if the plant pollinated itself on the same branches after you pollinated them by hand, you would still have a mixup...

Either way, both seeds should be prone to hermaphroditism and thus not be recommended for a breeding project.

It could potentially be a way to "lessen" the "proneness" to hermaphroditism in the line. But the hermy trait would always be there, potentially more and more latent but the ancestry should show the trait in some form or another even way down the breeding line.

Maybe someone with actual experience can give a better info.

Interested and will follow this.

 

[paladin420]

Yeah I don't expect this thread to need mods to condense 20,000 pages

Yes seeded with normal male pollen..

My question is more towards the actual donor plant We will call H..

If H is pollenated with normal male pollen would it still herm later in flower?

 

[MJPassion]

A plant that shows "perfect flowers" will throw some offspring that have "perfect flowers"... but not always.

There are different levels of intersex as well... While some plants only toss a nanner or two late in flower, some are full blown he/she plants with male & female parts at every node from the beginning of flower to scenecence.

An even more interesting anomaly is when the H trait skips a generation...

Keep in mind that all herms are confused females...
and
That almost all cannabis plants can be reversed.

So to answer the question as positively as possible...
Yes & No...
Progeny testing would be required to determine what, exactly, the offspring will do in a given environment.

 

[Zapadra]

Either way, both seeds should be prone to hermaphroditism and thus not be recommended for a breeding project.

But the hermy trait would always be there, potentially more and more latent but the ancestry should show the trait in some form or another even way down the breeding line.


Interested and will follow this.

My sentiments exactly. Are you wanting to pollinate the plant to prevent it from showing male parts, but not for the seed that it produces? Ie. Are you thinking along the lines of pollinating a known hermie to try prevent it from doing so later/ keep it mostly sensi?

Or are you looking to include these traits in a pool and you want to prevent the trait from showing and hopefully curb it?

zzzzZzzzz

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Ya the way I understood OP, I think he wants to know if it is possible to "breed the hermy out of a given line" by using regular male pollen.

To which the short answer would be:
It is possible to possibly reduce the herm tendency, possibly even to a degree that could make one consider the line as "stabilized" (a term thrown around very loosely unfortunately ...) i.e. the hermy tendency has become so low that it is negligible.
I think it was Mr. Nice Ortega line which is considered stable but is known to hermy if one does not remove the lower leaf nodes (the ones that are shadowed by the higher up leaves and thus induce hermying).

If a plant is known to hermy every time in every environment, reaching a stage, through breeding, where the plant only hermies if the lowest leaf nodes aren't removed, could definitely considered a breeding success.
The line may even loosely described as "stable".

However:
Why? Is there really no plant that doesn't hermy that is as desirable and could be used for breeding?

If the project is successful or not, if the hermy trait is reduced to a level that can be neglected or not:
The hermy trait will always be there. Possibly latent, possibly negligible but it will be there and potentially come to bite you back in the ass many, many years and generations down the line.

Why not just throw out the hermy and look for another keeper with similar properties???

Sure it may take additional seeds which cost a bit of money and it certainly will take much more time.

But imho such additional effort is worth it in order to not further dilute the gene pool of cannabis.

Keep in mind that we have hermy genetics in strains that are favored by and large by this very community. And we keep crossing these genetics out and introducing it into more and more parts of the gene pool.

I am talking of course about the allmighty chemdawg here.

The hermy trait has been bred out as far as possible I suppose.
But it is still there and will never be completely gone.

Imho the Canna community would have been better served by waiting another couple of years for another chemdawg that had no hermy traits.

 

[paladin420]

Nope. My question is only about plant H.. The unknown mother plant..

If pollenated would a hermi trait(sacks or nanners) still show up??

Worst hermi I've seen was strait 2 plants 1/2 male 1/2 female... Won't mention 'breeder' I think he learned not to blast his seed stock buds with the seeds in em...

But if I had pollenated that He/She early would those big hairy balls shown up?

 

[MJPassion]

Nope. My question is only about plant H.. The unknown mother plant..

If pollenated would a hermi trait(sacks or nanners) still show up??

Worst hermi I've seen was strait 2 plants 1/2 male 1/2 female... Won't mention 'breeder' I think he learned not to blast his seed stock buds with the seeds in em...

But if I had pollenated that He/She early would those big hairy balls shown up?

Can't answer the question but I've read, in the distant past, that if you keep a male in the room with the females that she's less likely to herm on ya. I don't know how true the theory is though.

 

[paladin420]

I believe keepin a stud around keeps the Fillies frisky

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Nope. My question is only about plant H.. The unknown mother plant..

If pollenated would a hermi trait(sacks or nanners) still show up??

Well then the answer is yes, isn't it?
Why would being pollinated by a regular male stop its hermy tendency? At least I never heard of such a feat.

Regarding the progeny, what was said above.

 

[paladin420]

Well then the answer is yes, isn't it?
Why would being pollinated by a regular male stop its hermy tendency? At least I never heard of such a feat.

Regarding the progeny, what was said above.

well that's the question ~

Why? Because hermaphroditism is a survival trait... Would it show up if the plant 'knew' survival of the line was assured?

As far as progeny goes it might explain some of the hermi seed stock?

 

[Gram Paw smurf]

only thing it could possibly stop is the seed being selfed, otherwise you'd still have seed in the bud, n really what's the difference between a plant seeded by itself or another other than the seed itself.
N males or no males present, a herms, a herm, that's just a result of the plants speak to eachother crazy chatter some came up with blurring the lines between general communication on different physiological levels n actual sentience.

So, yeah it could stop the plant from herming but you'd still be left with seeded bud, if the goal was to stop the herm from producing seed it's kinda counter productive, but if for a breeding project to breed the herm traits out than it'd obviously just be the 1st step.

cheers,..............................................gps

 

[paladin420]

Not worried about seeded bud. All I've flowered in 3 years was intended to be seeded..

I gues my question would be better stated as : would pollinating a plant mask hermi traits?

 

[Betterhaff]

An example from experience. I had a one off female I wanted to use to try and preserve some of her traits, people thought I laced the bud with something. The only problem was she threw nanners late in flower, no biggy if growing by herself as seeds never formed. With every cross I made, the progeny displayed some form of hermaphrodism, some extreme. I didn't pursue to f2 with any of them as I felt it was fruitless.

 

[paladin420]

An example from experience. I had a one off female I wanted to use to try and preserve some of her traits, people thought I laced the bud with something. The only problem was she threw nanners late in flower, no biggy if growing by herself as seeds never formed. With every cross I made, the progeny displayed some form of hermaphrodism, some extreme. I didn't pursue to f2 with any of them as I felt it was fruitless.

Right on.. But what if you had pollenated her before she nannered? Would she still have? Her progeny would have still, I believe.

 

[Betterhaff]

Right on.. But what if you had pollenated her before she nannered? Would she still have? Her progeny would have still, I believe.

Never really worried about that or noticed, more concerned about the seed I was making but that is an interesting question.

They were all outcrosses pollinated well before any nanners showed. I never got any selfed seeds as the nanners developed so late. And the males used were solid, never had a problem with them in other crosses.

I have since lost that girl and a couple of things I wish I would have tried were to harvest her pollen and use it on one of her younger flowering clones (or outcross) to see the results or try and reverse her (STS or CS). But after seeing the results of the outcrosses I doubt things would have changed much. That's history now and there are a lot of fish in the sea.

 

[MJPassion]

It appears you're trying to learn something & nobody has a definitive answer.

Pollinate your lady, Paladin, & tell us what you observe in a few weeks. Since you're not concerned about the progeny, you can eat em for a healthy snack.

 

[Betterhaff]

Sorry, I misunderstood. So your question is "if a hermi prone plant was pollinated before it showed hermi, would it still hermi?" (lol, lots of hermi's in there)

Just curious, what's the reason for your question? To show that hermaphroditic traits are a survival mechanism?

I believe a lot of tropical varieties that are hermaphrodites continue to flower (both ways) after they are pollinated.

 

[Gram Paw smurf]

Simplest answer would be it'll be dependant on the individual plant.
Not a simple yes or no, but dealing with so many individual plants in the cannabis world that's what we get as a result.
You could prob say definitively about a single specific plant, or even a few after observing as much, but others would show the complete opposite I'm sure.
Stating it's simply a survival trait alone doesn't cover it imo as that's relative, n quite subjective as long as cannabis has been farmed for anyhow, since farming practice good or bad isn't natural selection.
Only way to know for sure would be to try a specific individual plant n find out.
I'd imagine the extent of the herming and timing of it might dictate between them.
A plant throwing a couple nanners at the end of its cycle would most likely not bother doing so once seeded early on enough in its cycle, but some plants strt throwing full flowers along with the 1st calyxes, they'd prob not stop doing so even if you could get to them in time.
Give it a whirl n find out I say.

cheers,........................................gps