question for sam the skunkman on the original haze

[Veggia farmer]

I think you are very right about backcrossing to the parental generation. I have been studying breeding, most veggies, and been on some course of the big veggie breeders in eu too. They say also the same that you do now. That is also some of the reasons why its necessary to have a big gene pool. Which in turn have been very hard due to the legal status. Its simply inbreeding depression and you put on more wood to the fire when its start too burn out by backcrossing to original parent.

Thanks for sharing !

Cannabis is heterozygote, veggies like tomatoes are homozygote, Cannabis breeding is very different then for tomatoes, as tomatoes when selfed are still all the same, Cannabis will not be, and do not forget that selfed Cannabis will lose vigor and resistance to pest and disease as all the negative recessed genes pop up. By s4 the plant can be un-useable for commercial production.
-SamS
__________________

 

[harvestreaper]

YES
the 90' OHz and the Seedsman...
after reading Sam's old articles over cannabis breeding
released in a magazin call "BLOTTER" hehe ...
those who had LSD experience know what blotter means... ;-)
the article is called "Sun, Soil, Seeds & Soul"
it's amazing what Sam did all know by that time about it...
and in this article i'll found what i'll was thinking .... to be true...
and i'll found also the solution for it there...
had to read all twice and analyze...
"if a strain loses vigor, backcross the inbreed strain with the original imported seed plant (male or female) there by increasing vigor and parental traits ... parental traits ... -> potency and vigor...
did that but little different...
selfed my best OHz 90'(3) and Seedsman OHz (2) and let than pollinate the same ....
now in v2 i'll took the best OHz 90' ...
View Image
and pollinated my best cut's + the best Seedsman OHz and some others... hehe ... Iranian Auto, A5Hz, ACE Malawi...
v3 is in works too and is the opposite ... seeds are also nearly ready...
will find out what works best eg. potency, yield, time ...
that's why i'll keep all my haze cut's... until i'll know the outcome...
still have the best THH and all 24 OHz cut's ... and sooo happy about...
because now i'll see everywhere the outcome and that helps alot to do better and that the strategy was right... now it start to pay back...
and to me first aspect is the high... if the high has nothing but the plant looks stellar... i'll trash her... did that alot in the past... same goes to PM and other problems... was not easy in beginning... because seed cost money... but after some time and experience.. it becomes much easier...
and i'll don't have the time nor resources to do better or different...
it's still full illegal here... and also it's just for me... and that's why i'll don't care about flower time nor yield... i'll can grow big bud's ... and did so often... but what is mass with no effect... or boring effect... or half hour smile and than sleepy... no... landraces have it... most commercial have lost it... this magic in the high ... this bzzzt ... this budda like happiness without tired ... it was all there... but lost while breeding for commercial ... happy that i'll started smoking @ of 80' ...and that we where close to amsterdam... one of the best in begin 90' when we where often in A'Dam was Thai Stick... this special fermented weed... with this unique smell... and speedy euphoric high... we took it every time before concert in Paradiso or Melkweg...
happy that there are still breeders like ACE who keep this landraces and bring it to the people... SamS Durban Poison was killer in the 90' too...
not huge yield but amazing smell and high... later durban lost the magic... like all the good stuff... because... my theory:
they all lost the mothers where they made the seeds with...
with all those bust and concurrence in holland by that time...
i'm sure that there is no original mother... F2 and later...
and than makes Sam's theory about inbreeding and loosing vigor etc totally sense... to me the F1 is the real fun...
long text... da haze in da morning... ;-)
hope it helps to understand my motivation...
it's my hobby with no money involved ...
only the high counts.
M.

hey mac thanks for the great reply ,,, yes blotters those were the days, i used to take lsd an research pedigrees of dogs great fun ,,i totally understand your work here and respect to you,, ive bred dogs many years and have inbred them often and seen the valuable tool inbreeding is, the best are the ones to inbreed from as youve done ,dominant genes show etc,, to then take two selfed standouts to make a cross within the haze line is the right an correct way to improve a line but so far your the only person ive seen do it with haze,or even cannabis ,very few realise you can inbreed /outcross and linebreed within one line ,ultimately its about refinement, i can see your percentage of good plants rising significantly as to the size of the gene pool and youve earned it ,,i to remember the durban in 80s great stuff as you say so many fell by the wayside ,,all to do with money being the motivation ,,youve just proved for all to see little selection had been done on the haze stocks being sold and when someone puts in the work they get the rewards great example well done looks like its the true haze lovers that are saving her,, everything as it should be

 

[CannaT]

hello,
well many thx @ all for comments and likes...

the smell is exactly = Aframomum melegueta (Amomum granum paradisi) pepper...
go get it.. it's not expensive... than you get the idea...
it's so complex i'll can not describe in english...
if you have Vicks VapoRub... than rub it on your body...
wait 5-10 min and than you have exactly the smell too...
only smell my wife likes ... all other she doesn't and make trouble when harvesting and the house smells like ... you name it
when burned one i'm not sure... there is this special smell haze have...
but o'm not good when smoked to tell whet smell it is..
so will ask my friends next time... and report...
well can't wait to plant the v2 of the OHz S1... rocket fuel
thx
M.

I like those smell I havent had much expirience with pure O hazes like you.
But from growing hybrids of Hazes and chose the most Hazy ones i like that smell the most.
Dry eucaliptus leaf menthol and pepper.
When you smell it you get like all history of plants in that smell so ancient so special like you smell half milion years old smell.
I want to smoke it right now. XD

Plectranthus madagascariensis is also very cheap plant very beautiful and smell like haze while burning.
I always have it with dry fresh cutted eucalyptus in my room for smells.
I like those old world smells in weed.
spices always before candys .

 

[JohnnyChicago]

the smell is exactly = Aframomum melegueta (Amomum granum paradisi) pepper...
go get it.. it's not expensive... than you get the idea...

That is the best exemple of acquired knowledge through sharing.

Aframomum melegueta, also called, Guinea pepper.
It has been confirmed as the main smell of Seedsman Haze in 6 different grows I know of. From the Original Seedsman seeds, but also from inbred Seedsman lines done by 3 different people. I did post that Guinea pepper info already in january, 2018. But if it does not get confirmed by other people, it is useless. Even for yourself.

Even those who haven't grown OH. Your experience is precious Go buy melegueta pepper.

@Star Crash The next level. It's exactly for that kind of attitude that I have put your name next to MM.

The Seedsmans were earthy, leathery and peppery. They did all carry some incense, but the incense was full on pepper (just one was lemony). The fasciated one had the strongest incense smells. Was like burning concentrated guinea pepper.

 

[nepalnt21]

the studies i've glanced at would indicate high sesquiterpene content in guinea pepper, or grains of paradise (that's what i know it as), but especially caryophyllene and/ or maybe alpha-caryophyllene (humulene) which both smell almost identical. caryophyllene ever-so-slight extra metallic woody spice aroma. also found in black pepper. take away the pungency of black pepper (the "hot") & there it is. clove has that same smell in the mix, but it's mostly masked by other more in-yer-face aromas. ginger apparently also has humulene, but very subdued and taken over by stronger aromas.

very cool, my favorite strains tend to have at least caryophyllene in higher amounts.

heres one article on afromomum essential oil constituents

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/(SICI)1099-1026(199903/04)14:2<109::AID-FFJ775>3.0.CO;2-M

 

[star crash]

That is the best exemple of acquired knowledge through sharing.

Aframomum melegueta, also called, Guinea pepper.
It has been confirmed as the main smell of Seedsman Haze in 6 different grows I know of. From the Original Seedsman seeds, but also from inbred Seedsman lines done by 3 different people. I did post that Guinea pepper info already in january, 2018. But if it does not get confirmed by other people, it is useless. Even for yourself.

Even those who haven't grown OH. Your experience is precious Go buy melegueta pepper.

@Star Crash The next level. It's exactly for that kind of attitude that I have put your name next to MM.

I’m outrageously honored by you... >>> whom have improved my life... here’s the progeny (Every single plant has been successfully cloned)

 

[Goodherb]

That is the best exemple of acquired knowledge through sharing.

Aframomum melegueta, also called, Guinea pepper.
It has been confirmed as the main smell of Seedsman Haze in 6 different grows I know of. From the Original Seedsman seeds, but also from inbred Seedsman lines done by 3 different people. I did post that Guinea pepper info already in january, 2018. But if it does not get confirmed by other people, it is useless. Even for yourself.

Even those who haven't grown OH. Your experience is precious Go buy melegueta pepper.

@Star Crash The next level. It's exactly for that kind of attitude that I have put your name next to MM.

Johnny, Guinea pepper, in my region of the earth is a plant that grow similar ginger ,it have peppery spiciness at the same time cool and refreshing.
We use the leaves to make tea,the more you drink,more you want!

 

[star crash]

YES
the 90' OHz and the Seedsman...
after reading Sam's old articles over cannabis breeding
released in a magazin call "BLOTTER" hehe ...
those who had LSD experience know what blotter means... ;-)
the article is called "Sun, Soil, Seeds & Soul"
it's amazing what Sam did all know by that time about it...
and in this article i'll found what i'll was thinking .... to be true...
and i'll found also the solution for it there...
had to read all twice and analyze...
"if a strain loses vigor, backcross the inbreed strain with the original imported seed plant (male or female) there by increasing vigor and parental traits ... parental traits ... -> potency and vigor...
did that but little different...
selfed my best OHz 90'(3) and Seedsman OHz (2) and let than pollinate the same ....
now in v2 i'll took the best OHz 90' ...
View Image
and pollinated my best cut's + the best Seedsman OHz and some others... hehe ... Iranian Auto, A5Hz, ACE Malawi...
v3 is in works too and is the opposite ... seeds are also nearly ready...
will find out what works best eg. potency, yield, time ...
that's why i'll keep all my haze cut's... until i'll know the outcome...
still have the best THH and all 24 OHz cut's ... and sooo happy about...
because now i'll see everywhere the outcome and that helps alot to do better and that the strategy was right... now it start to pay back...
and to me first aspect is the high... if the high has nothing but the plant looks stellar... i'll trash her... did that alot in the past... same goes to PM and other problems... was not easy in beginning... because seed cost money... but after some time and experience.. it becomes much easier...
and i'll don't have the time nor resources to do better or different...
it's still full illegal here... and also it's just for me... and that's why i'll don't care about flower time nor yield... i'll can grow big bud's ... and did so often... but what is mass with no effect... or boring effect... or half hour smile and than sleepy... no... landraces have it... most commercial have lost it... this magic in the high ... this bzzzt ... this budda like happiness without tired ... it was all there... but lost while breeding for commercial ... happy that i'll started smoking @ of 80' ...and that we where close to amsterdam... one of the best in begin 90' when we where often in A'Dam was Thai Stick... this special fermented weed... with this unique smell... and speedy euphoric high... we took it every time before concert in Paradiso or Melkweg...
happy that there are still breeders like ACE who keep this landraces and bring it to the people... SamS Durban Poison was killer in the 90' too...
not huge yield but amazing smell and high... later durban lost the magic... like all the good stuff... because... my theory:
they all lost the mothers where they made the seeds with...
with all those bust and concurrence in holland by that time...
i'm sure that there is no original mother... F2 and later...
and than makes Sam's theory about inbreeding and loosing vigor etc totally sense... to me the F1 is the real fun...
long text... da haze in da morning... ;-)
hope it helps to understand my motivation...
it's my hobby with no money involved ...
only the high counts.
M.

~

 

[Hyperirishman]

CC, you sir and your barley ways are a living legend.

 

[DenverJim]

i have a pruner exactly like the one in the picture and its old

 

[DenverJim]

Should have added from post 5047

 

[Goodherb]

Not faze by da haze, Welcome it !

Not faze by da haze, Welcome it !

I crossed 17 weeker of neville´s haze with thh male, I am sure thh can only improve it. I think that not every NH is muddier than Ohz. mostly yes, but there are some nice extreme haze phenotypes sure. it is bit strange that NH is less vigorous than Ohz though. I dont see that these hybrids, when male is used, would have something more than Ohz, I see they lacks something.

I divide the effect of haze to 3 levels or departments if you want.
1. it is mental level - psychedelic dimension, dreaming, fantasy, streaming, trance, vision, creativity, unusual ways of memorizing, overall neuroplasticity .
2. it is emotional level - ability of receiving affections - euphoria, laugh, anxiety, positive vibes, magic feelings, for rastas religious feelings, simply all kinds of feeling you have after smoking haze..
3. it is energy level - no ceiling, up lifting, electric, rushes, ringing in the ears, levitation, energetic waves, heart beating and others, simply all that body energetics.
so from I could observe, Neville´s haze for example, lacks a lot in emotional level compared to Ohz.. and also lacks a little bit at energetic level. so why not to cross it with Ohz and get interesting recombination and to eliminate unwanted properties inherited from NL. Ohz can only improve it.

MaHa KaLA. Reading this post , affirm everything don't I thought about Haze's ,Ohz is the summit .

What was that cross(nh x thh) ultimate result, growth,vigor, effects.
From what you mention as the(3) three "levels, departments , #2 peak my interest , moreso,Rasta Religious feeling. I will love to take or send a pound to the groundation ceremony,as an peace offering, JAH willing.

I know that I am on right path when it's come genetics,the craze that's going on island everything kush, as much as some good for the ideal time.
The growers are not considering ,hazes,long flowering sativa's anymore! Sad!

The Head to be Respect, HIM !

 

[Raho]

I’ve got this phenotype View Image View Image

Well, you found it didn't ya

Gotta say, that's a look that only a mother could love
I wonder if she grows out of that?
Hope the smoke rewards you Star Crash

 

[star crash]

Well, you found it didn't ya

Gotta say, that's a look that only a mother could love
I wonder if she grows out of that?
Hope the smoke rewards you Star Crash

I’ve become a fasciated Haze slave ..

 

[elanius]

Definitely tricky to search for Sams posts, another reason why I appreciate your efforts doing this, almost feel bad indirectly "forcing" you to it hehe.

I think that quote you found does not prove my words, but as you say, can be explained that way...Think it will be best if Sam notice our struggling here and clarify.

Sam, if you can, please let us know if the Seedsman release was done with several mothers or 1:1 pairing.

.....

You said: "It's a big credit to Johnny that he saw past the negative attributes of those phenos and kept that flat stem girl, right? Not only that, but he told us about it, helping others with his seeds select the fire."

and I definitely agree, much respect to JohnnyChicago for growing the underdog (as it was considered that, at that time) doing it right and then reporting back. Not to mention making seeds and sharing them!
His flat keeper female also produced some of the best progeny, so it seems there is something about those fasciated girls.

Have a good days!

LOL, yeah I know it would be a serious pain to try and find that. I appreciate the response.

It's even harder than usual to search for old Sam posts because much of what he shares are actually edits to other people's posts, so you won't find it if you search under his handle.

I just did an advanced search in the thread with "Sam fasciated" in the keyword box. Sam is a 3 letter word so that doesn't help, and the search results only show 5 lines of the post in the preview, so the chance of seeing Sam's comments without clicking in every post (11 pages worth) are almost zero.

OK, I found it
Searched on fasciated by:JohnnyChicago instead. It's all on page 142



Sure sounds like he used A mother (1). Clearly he used THE mother.
At the same time, it doesn't sound like he remembers what he used at all.
I don't think he necessarily says what you remembered, but if you want to take it that way, I won't argue

Still, every example of fasciated seedsman oHaze plants you mentioned ultimately came from Johnny's selection, so you kind of made my point.

Johnny verified the ~1:50 appearance of that trait. Lots of people bought and grew that seedsman gear over the years, never seen pics from anyone else showing it. That said, there's a good chance that if they were finding fasciated phenos, they would not have kept them.

It's a big credit to Johnny that he saw past the negative attributes of those phenos and kept that flat stem girl, right? Not only that, but he told us about it, helping others with his seeds select the fire.

Hell man, most people up here throw out plants that start to fall behind in the SEEDLING stage, or otherwise don't please them, WAY before anyone could assess the most important qualities of a plant we grow for flowers. Before they even showed sex. I always have a hard time when I see that :-(


Happy Friday Elanius!

 

[Veggia farmer]

Thanks Sam,

Thanks for popping inn and for explaining further.

Yes, I read about you could or some people had(?) taken seeds from just one plant for twenty generation with no or little signs of inbreed depression.

Homozygote plants I would assume you also could take a direct = to plants also called innbreeding/self-pollinating plants. Like tomatoes. Then heterozygote = outbreeding plants as windpollinating ones. Like Cannabis or Corn.

I sit here with the book Seed to Seed from Susanne Ashworth for references. A general rule would be to save seeds from 20 plants for inbreeding ones and from 100 plants for outbreeding ones.
With Cannabis to conserve a landrace 1000 females and 1000 males need to be used or genes will be lost.-SamS
Corn is a plant very suspect to inbreeding depression here its adviced to grow minimum 200 and cull any of types. For a highly variable landrace would require a much larger gene pool per variety or strain if you like. I Remember that Corn is male and female so that influence the game as well, if I wouldn`t hand or bag pollinate. When seeds are saved from too few plants for one generation, the loss of genetic material within one gene pool is immediately noticeable and irreversible.

Another thing thats common with corn is/was exactly to back cross it to its ancient ancestor, Teosinte. Aleast it was common in traditional breeding of corn.

I know due to legal status, space and effort it can be difficult to run numbers like that for some, but what are we aiming at? I have not searched a lot but some and have not found info on Hemp for population size. On the other hand, hemp is grown so different to most modern Cannabis growers that it would easily be none relevance to them. Atleast when it comes to more flower specific strains vs traditional hash strains.

Lets say you would have seed to seed grow with the focus on the seeds. Open pollinating and harvest seeds from the plants that is true to type. How many seed parents should someone aim at? Or if one is selecting also on the males, then only true to type males and females, whats the population aim for each sex?

 

[elanius]

Seedsman Ohaze @ 18 weeks

Seedsman Ohaze @ 18 weeks

More wild phenotype a lot of resin on those small pearl like flowers, classic seedsman haze grains of paradise smell but not as strong, high is good but not great. This girl is out.

 

[Hammerhead]

Does anyone know if Dr. greenspoon is renamed ? Those seeds produce phenos just like that seedsman ohaze.

 

[willydread]

More wild phenotype a lot of resin on those small pearl like flowers, classic seedsman haze grains of paradise smell but not as strong, high is good but not great. This girl is out.

View Image View Image View Image View Image View Image

I know people who would throw the whole plant in the bin cursing the sky ....
Hahaha
Beautiful plant, congratulations Elanius!

 

[mexcurandero420]

That is indeed a wild thing the OHz phenotype of Seedsman.Could be that Dr.Grinspoon is a wild OHz in disguise.