question for advanced growers please

[Obi Wan Kenabis]

Kindman, that next to last pic looks almost identical to my last grow. I guess I need to do some environmental troubleshooting.

Trouble is, I don't know where to start.

My first crop in the grow cab was beautiful, and I can't think of any changes except addition of a wire rack on the bottom to hold the pots off the floor. The rack is a couple years old, so no paint outgasing.

The first crop in that cab was in grow bags sitting in Sterilite tubs.

I've just put some new clones in, they're starting to show the same symptoms.

THCforus, good luck to ya. I'll be watching this thread.

 

[geopolitical]

If I remember right, soil pH can really affect magnesium solubility in it. So if your pH is too high, your mg can become progressively harder for the plants to uptake. I believe it's high 5's to low 6's where you want it for mg. However, higher soil pH's don't affect all mg sources the same. I know MagAmp wasn't affected much and neither was magnesium sulfate (epsom salts).

Now the other thing to consider is that superthrive is definitely a source of nitrogen. Some plants really do need extra N love in bloom or they don't do well. Most don't need much, but some do. I have some indica heavy hash plants that do very poorly without supplemental nitrogen during bloom.

So what may be happening here is you're doing a double slam. The superthrive was lowering soil pH JUST enough that your mg deficiency wasn't severe AND it was providing very small amounts of additional nitrogen to help things along.

All that being said, I have been growing a LOT of plants for nearly 40 years now and I haven't seen jack diddly in positive results from superthrive from what I'm growing, esp in side by side comparisons using the same clones from the same mamma.

Now, that being said I've had GREAT plants that also happen to have been treated with superthrive, (my wife loves it, honestly I think it's the smell she likes) so I don't think it's in any way detrimental to plant health. It just seems like a waste of $$ that could be spent on other things like burritos or a good compost tea setup.

 

[Tarbosh]

ok,

so amigo.... I feel like this 100% over analysis..... plants are feeling creatures.... they can communicate and are extremely intelligent......

chill with them..... ask them what's up..... and wait till they let you know...... usually comes in the form of a realization when you least expect it......

sounds to me like your amigos and you have bonded..... and you started taking someone elses advice (ie. dont use superthrive) and they didnt feel the love.... simply bc that suggestion didnt come from you.....

just my o2..... feel free to pm me if you need

 

[Tarbosh]

**amigas**

sorry ladies

 

[Kindman69]

I dont know if this is w/ happened to my plants or not, but the necrosis in your pics looks extremely similar to the die-off of my leaves.

I did use a shitload of duct tape in and around the grow area.
Can duct tape really cause something like this?
Are there any other enviro. stressors you can think of that would bring something like this on?
I not gonna rule this shit out, thats for sure.

I'm starting to think so, but I would think that as long as your extraction is sufficient (what is sufficient I guess?) there should not be a build up. Remember my problems started once I sealed my environment. I think that in your situation I would eliminate all the obvious dbp containing materials i.e. duct tape, spray glues, pvc, anything that does not need to be in there. Next I would take a good hard look at my extraction and ramp it up until I show no symptoms. When do we know we have no symptoms?! I like the advice from the guy above, feel the plants, look at the plants etc. Usually we can tell when a plant is happy.
Keep in mind though that depending on how long they get exposed, they may not fully recover. So a good amount of clones is probably needed until we can be sure.

My case is a bit tougher in the sense that I'm trying to maintain my sealed environment. I wish there was a way to test the air, like a test-strip or something similar. Anybody know of something?

Kindman

 

[Kindman69]

Check out the part about crop reduction at the bottom

"RESEARCH-ARTICLE
Phytotoxicity of Phthalate Plasticisers
1. DIAGNOSIS AND COMMERCIAL IMPLICATIONS

J. W. HANNAY 1 and D. J. MILLAR 2

Department of Pure and Applied Biology, Imperial College Prince Consort Road, London SW7 2BB, U.K.

The toxicity caused by a volatile constituent from certain samples of flexible polyvinyl chloride (PVC) was due to dibutyl or diisobutyl phthalate (DBP or DIBP) plasticisers. It has caused serious financial losses in the horticultural industry. The two phthalate esters have low volatilities, so any toxicity lasts for many years. Radish (Raphanus sativus L. cv. Cherry Belle) seedlings, exposed to an air stream containing 160–180 ng dm–3 of butyl phthalates developed chlorotic leaves within 3–4 d and died within 12 d. Neither dioctyl nor diisodecyl phthalate (DOP nor DIDP) produced damage in the test plants. Measurements of photosynthetic and respiratory gas exchange in intact shoots of affected radishes showed that photosynthesis was severely inhibited whilst respiration was virtually unaffected. Electron micrographs of sections from young leaves showed disruption of thylakoid formation and granai stacking. In mature leaves, thylakoids and grana were well formed but chloroplasts were swollen and the thylakoids were pushed towards the vacuolar side of the chloroplast. Sensitivity to toxic phthalates varies between species; all members of the Cruciferae tested were susceptible, tomato less so, and lettuce and ryegrass were resistant. Toxicity of DIBP, from PVC glazing strip, caused a reduction in crop value of £20 000 per acre per year in commercially grown, monocrop tomatoes."

This was taken from :
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/misc/terms.shtml

Kindman

 

[THCforus]

ok,



sounds to me like your amigos and you have bonded..... and you started taking someone elses advice (ie. dont use superthrive) and they didnt feel the love.... simply bc that suggestion didnt come from you.....


very nice. Some of the best advice yet IMO.

 

[THCforus]

Check out the part about crop reduction at the bottom

"RESEARCH-ARTICLE
Phytotoxicity of Phthalate Plasticisers
1. DIAGNOSIS AND COMMERCIAL IMPLICATIONS

J. W. HANNAY 1 and D. J. MILLAR 2

Department of Pure and Applied Biology, Imperial College Prince Consort Road, London SW7 2BB, U.K.

The toxicity caused by a volatile constituent from certain samples of flexible polyvinyl chloride (PVC) was due to dibutyl or diisobutyl phthalate (DBP or DIBP) plasticisers. It has caused serious financial losses in the horticultural industry. The two phthalate esters have low volatilities, so any toxicity lasts for many years. Radish (Raphanus sativus L. cv. Cherry Belle) seedlings, exposed to an air stream containing 160–180 ng dm–3 of butyl phthalates developed chlorotic leaves within 3–4 d and died within 12 d. Neither dioctyl nor diisodecyl phthalate (DOP nor DIDP) produced damage in the test plants. Measurements of photosynthetic and respiratory gas exchange in intact shoots of affected radishes showed that photosynthesis was severely inhibited whilst respiration was virtually unaffected. Electron micrographs of sections from young leaves showed disruption of thylakoid formation and granai stacking. In mature leaves, thylakoids and grana were well formed but chloroplasts were swollen and the thylakoids were pushed towards the vacuolar side of the chloroplast. Sensitivity to toxic phthalates varies between species; all members of the Cruciferae tested were susceptible, tomato less so, and lettuce and ryegrass were resistant. Toxicity of DIBP, from PVC glazing strip, caused a reduction in crop value of £20 000 per acre per year in commercially grown, monocrop tomatoes."

This was taken from :
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/misc/terms.shtml

Kindman

Thanks for the info kindman, I'm gonna look into this.

 

[THCforus]

Obi wan kenabis and Geopolitical, Thanks for the replies. I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of this eventually, hopefully sooner than later.

 

[Just a nice guy]

All I can say is that if it aint broke, dont fix it!
Been growing for 15+ years and use 1 drop of ST per gallon EVERY gallon since day one.
I like it. I do aight. Good luck!

 

[THCforus]

All I can say is that if it aint broke, dont fix it!
Been growing for 15+ years and use 1 drop of ST per gallon EVERY gallon since day one.
I like it. I do aight. Good luck!

fair enough my man,
I need learn to trust my instinct's. Regardless w/ the popular opinion on the use of something may be. It seems like every time i question the way i'm doing things, that problems arise
Thanks for the reply

 

[Just a nice guy]

Exactamundo.... Plus having a lil snake oil never hurt, right?

 

[Hydro-Soil]

weedman herb,
first off, thank you for the reply.
I totally feel you on only trying something new on a couple plants. My bad completely. I guess more or less what i'm asking is if you guys think that it's possible that abruptly discontinuing superthrive, after using it every feeding during veg, could cause this?

The simple answer, YES!

The long answer, oh Heeeeeeellllllll yess. ST is chock full of natural and man made synthetics that copy chemicals found in nature.

Wikipedia
SUPERthrive is a WARF testing lab certified non-toxic liquid concentrated growth enhancer product for plants, which has been available since 1940. It contains ".09% Vitamin B1, .048% 1-Napthyl acetic acid",[1] with a total of dissolved solids of approximately 25%, which, according to some labeling, may include some 50 compounds of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen normally produced by plants under ideal conditions and time. [2]

What would your body's reaction be if you were pumped full of growth and other hormones your entire childhood and then suddenly the supplements were stopped? Your entire maturation cycle has been altered to something else.

Personally I won't use anything that has synthesized chemicals in it, no matter how 'close' to nature they are. I use FNB which is refined minerals (to remove impurities) and 5% organic material to add fulvic/humic acids.

It's a personal choice as I'm going back to nature and avoiding all processed foods and chemicals.
Edit: I used to use ST and Vitamin B1 'like' compounds. No more.

 

[Morpheen]

I use super-thrive because I read to, then I read its worthless. So if I can even find where I have that crazy bottle....have you ever actually sat down and read and looked at all that shit label??
"You ever done it on WEEEED man??"

Dutch

 

[THCforus]

The simple answer, YES!

The long answer, oh Heeeeeeellllllll yess. ST is chock full of natural and man made synthetics that copy chemicals found in nature.

Wikipedia
SUPERthrive is a WARF testing lab certified non-toxic liquid concentrated growth enhancer product for plants, which has been available since 1940. It contains ".09% Vitamin B1, .048% 1-Napthyl acetic acid",[1] with a total of dissolved solids of approximately 25%, which, according to some labeling, may include some 50 compounds of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen normally produced by plants under ideal conditions and time. [2]

What would your body's reaction be if you were pumped full of growth and other hormones your entire childhood and then suddenly the supplements were stopped? Your entire maturation cycle has been altered to something else.

Personally I won't use anything that has synthesized chemicals in it, no matter how 'close' to nature they are. I use FNB which is refined minerals (to remove impurities) and 5% organic material to add fulvic/humic acids.

It's a personal choice as I'm going back to nature and avoiding all processed foods and chemicals.
Edit: I used to use ST and Vitamin B1 'like' compounds. No more.

I'm getting such a wide variety of opinions on this subject, on this forum, and others. i did began using it again, on the newer ones. It seems my problems are showing up again anyway. I'm starting to think the cal-mag's not causing this problem either. I'm starting to think that it could be something environmental. The thing is, i really have no idea why. I guess i'm just hopeing I could get some difinitive grasp on this. Disturbing to say the least.

 

[Kindman69]

I'm sorry to hear pro I feel for you, nothing worse then not knowing what's going on.
If it is the environment, you can try to increase your extraction until harvest time.
I would do a side by side during veg next time, a view clones in the grow cab and a view in another area. If it is related to the environment it will show within a 1-2 weeks depending on the concentration of gasses in there. You can also double up your clones and have a full second veg grow outside your grow cab going on simultaneously. That way if there is a problem in your cab, you can take care of it and not loose so much time
A word on yield reduction, I grew out AI that were affected last grow, yield was under .25g/w, what a waste.
Let's hope it is not your environment!

Good luck,
Kindman

PS: You say 'disturbing', I say absolutley fucking crushing!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I dunno if anything but my age is advanced...but anywho...

Two things glare at me when reading about your situation, T.
One, ST is a very concentrated solution. I know for a fact that there was a guy on here some while back that wrecked his grow due to misunderstanding the correct mixture. I think that most who have touted the stuff as OK, were mostly using 1-2 drops per gallon.
That is a very easy to screw up ratio for two reasons...one it is obviously a far smaller amount than the nute solution, so increasing from 1 drop to 3 could really be a huge difference in how the solution reacts with the plants.
Your plants have not acclimated to it, that is something you can put to rest.
Also consider that one mans drop is not another mans drop. Just what are you using to constitute a droplet? If your dropper allows more surface area to expose before the surface tension is broken, than another dropper...three of your drops could be 6 of another droppers. That stuff is too concentrated to not know exactly how much you are using, especially if you at the threshold.
Considering that nobody has ever lost a plant due to non use of super thrive, I would highly consider loosing it from your regimen.

Also consider this...it seems that you, like most folks, tend to initiate the flush as soon as you see trouble. Well, this practice is not really the best, if you are growing in coco. And it only stands to reason that many of the reasons that it presents problems in coco could also present themselves in other mediums, including peat and no-soil mixtures.
If a lock out or toxicity problem presents in coco, flushing heavily usually results in what you have now. I would consider that and make it part of the rule out process, in case it is causing you bigger problems than what you were initially trying to fix.