purging without vacuume?

[pip313]

1. estimate amount of hash you used
2. estimate amount of alcohol used
3. what proof alcohol was it
4. did you chill the alcohol solution
5. did you chill the plant matter and butane when making the bho
6. when you say thick heavy goo do you mean the hash after you evaporated the alcohol?

you lost terpenes when the alcohol evaporated away its not advoidable do to the boiling points. Also the method of making the hash wasn't specified, i'm assuming you have bho and butane doesnt dissolve the terpenes as easily as some other methods.

 

[Gray Wolf]

hey thanks Grey Wolf. Ive messaged you regarding this in the past and I appreciate your clarifications. When I redissolved the hash into alcohol I never had any real separation of the substance. It just became a really thick heavy goo which worked very well. Little harshness and thick smoke that coated my lips. Oh yeah. So when did I lose terpenes during this, cause I really let this cure or age for quite some time after the initial water bath boiling off alcohol process.

Ummmm, not sure I understand exactly what your process was.

If the mix of alcohol and hash made a thick gooey mess, it sounds like there was not enough alcohol present. How much did you use?

The alcohol with the resins dissolved in it is typically filtered of solids and then reduced to get prime oil.

 

[vertigo0007]

Yes, the pads w no time-out switch work wonerfully. You can even get a digital one amd mod it to stop turning off. I think the diy instructions may have been on this site but im not certain.

ok, so given all of the excellent advice, i decided to try one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Sunbeam-756-5...=UTF8&qid=1351965054&sr=1-2&keywords=heat+pad

"The surface temperature on all our resistance heating pads, except Soft Touch®, is a maximum of 135oF - 140oF. If you use one of our Soft Touch® or HeatSenseTM heating pads, you may choose a temperature from the following settings: Lo: 110oF Medium: 138oF Hi: 160oF Health at Home heating pads are engineered to never exceed 176oF, the temperature limit set by Underwriters Laboratory."

this above says to me that it should have just the right amount of heat, but also it doesn't have a 1 hour cutoff switch, plus it uses a lot less electricity that a hot plate to do the same thing...from what i can find they use around 50-65 watts at the very most...frankly if this works as well as i think it should it would seem very wasteful to heat purge on a stove or hotplate at 1500w for hours on end when the same thing could be done on one of these for 50 watts...i'm going to purchase and start doing tests soon, although i think i am going to stick with this specific brand i linked, and NOT use any with digital controls, because as far as i can tell, this super basic model is the only one out there nowadays that doesn't have either a 1 or 2 hour cutoff...

what do you guys think? im still doing some more research on them, i'll probably just buy one from walmart and test with a cooking thermometer and a pyrex dish full of water to make sure they go up to the right temps...another plus is that some have a thin sponge, meant to be dampened, so that it transfers heat super effectively, it seems that that would also make for a much more efficient heat transfer to a pirex dish, than say a coil-style hot plate...the only thing more efficient would be an oil or water bath...but i would think the moist sponge would transfer less water vapor into the air, than a whole dish/bath full of steaming water...

there are even digital ones available for about 40-50 bucks, just set it to the temp you want, down to the degree, put your pirex dish on the pad, and come back when it's done, minus the huge fire hazard and minus the thousands of watts of electricity used...

another possible plus is that these things are designed waterproof, to be sat on by fat sweaty dudes, and to do so without shorting out and zapping the dude to death...also without causing hotspots on his fat sweaty skin...and as i stated above, some models even include a sponge you moisten and put on the pad...newer models are even washing machine safe! seems like that would make it ideal for putting a pirex dish on with even, low heat...and the fact that it's waterproof makes me think you could probably use it in place of a hot water bath to keep your plate hot while the butane is boiling off...i mean if there is no way a sweaty guy can shock himself with this then how could a slight vapor on your back deck be ignited by it?

 

[señorsloth]

500w for 5 min or 50w for 10 hours? whats more effecient?

that's not really a fair comparison...because in the end i was basing that long time on this comment from page one...

Dude, before I started vac purging a month ago I had been making excellent bho for years. Purging without a vacuum chamber is easy, just take about 4x longer, not a week though. After a hot water bath, put your dish on a heating pad. Most oil can be purged in 12-15 hours this way

in theory his heating pad, which is probably the same one i settled on could heat your oil just as hot as the stove would after a 3 minute burst...if that is the case then they should take the same amount of time to purge, and really it would be personal preference, im not really so stingy about electricity that im going to count individual watts...

my problem was the first guy said heating pad, and mentioned 12-15 hours, and then everybody else after said to get a hotplate, and i guess i just assumed they were all talking about the same thing and i was supposed to run a hotplate for 15 hours straight, which, given that outlook, i naturally looked for a way to do it without using so much electricity... i'm now seeing from you guys that it only takes about an hour or so usually? see if that's the case then it makes a lot more sense why everybody does it a little differently...

i mean, so we have settled on heating to 120-130 for about an hour till the bigger butane bubbles have all risen and right when the smaller terpene bubbles start to rise, that's when you stop? in the end that's really not that hot, and there are TONS of ways to skin that cat, i think heating method probably comes down to personal preference at that point, given my understanding of how to purge is correct...which it may not be...

but if it is i still think i prefer a hot pad over a hot plate just because the contact would be total, a coil would waste a lot of energy because they don't make very good contact with the pirex dish and a stove is pretty safe i guess, but having a hotplate implies its going to be in another room, which kinda scares me a bit, fire hazard and all, i get pretty forgetful on my oil...

i am glad vacuum purging isn't the norm though, because i can feel better about myself for not wanting to buy all that equipment for a few grams of oil each run...i am also glad that purging can be done so easily and relatively safely...its also nice to know that that amount of butane isn't harmful to people anyway...and my bho is from very fresh material so it tastes so good i'm not sure i could notice any if there were any butane in there...but i did a run this morning and followed HMK's tech, it worked well and is scary strong...tastes very very good, almost as good as my scissor hash, which, isn't very pure but tastes like it's 50% terps...so tastey....

 

[pip313]

It is a good comparison, why would you ever think that you would use the same amount of time to purge when using so much more power? Where is the logic in that? Would you bake cookies for the same amount of time at 200 and 400 degrees?

Smaller bubbles are not just the terpenes. Butane is hard to purge and can stay trapped in the thick oil.

 

[señorsloth]

It is a good comparison, why would you ever think that you would use the same amount of time to purge when using so much more power? Where is the logic in that? Would you bake cookies for the same amount of time at 200 and 400 degrees?

i don't agree, and this is a really stupid argument because in the end it's all basically the same...i wonder if you have even made bho, since you don't seem to understand either method like somebody who had done it first hand...this very morning i made a batch using HMK's technique, you use the 3 minute bursts to keep the water in the water bath from cooling down, the coil takes a while to cool so you are basically using short bursts from your stove to keep the water around 120-130 degrees for the hour or two that you need to purge...it works, i did it this morning, but personally it just seemed easier to me to plop the pirex dish on a hotpad and not have to worry about doing the 3-5 minute bursts with the stove, it's not like it uses a lot more electricity either way and they should take about the same amount of time to do a proper purge, since the bursts from the stove will keep it at the same temperature as the hotpad just left on... like i said before it is basically the same either way and it's all personal preference...

it's not like we are saying you can purge your oil in 5 minutes by cooking it at "400 degrees" with a hotplate and that it will take 10 hours using a hotpad...a hotpad can get hotter than you need to purge, and can do it just as fast as a hot water bath or a hotplate on low, there was one reference to purging for 12 hours and i don't think that much time is necessary, honestly, i mean my oil is soooo delicious, no sputtering, and the water in my water bath stayed around 130 the whole time and never went above 140, a hotpad can hold those temps just as well so it should theoretically take just as long with either method...

in fact i found in the main bho how-to, that he says to use a hotpad, and purge for one hour with it...so 10 hours is really not a fair comparison to a few 5 minute bursts on the stove, it's really like an hour or so...which just makes it personal preference cause the amount of electricity is probably pretty similar in the end...https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=31950

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

its not a few 5 minute bursts, it a total of 3-5 minutes with the stove turned on. but i dont care which is cheaper, just saying

 

[señorsloth]

its not a few 5 minute bursts, it a total of 3-5 minutes with the stove turned on.

maybe i wasn't communicating it well but that's what i meant by a 5 minute burst, just turning it on for 3-5 minutes and turning it off, i may have done it a few more times than you do, and it took me a bit longer than an hour, i probably overdid it, but i am new to purging and wanted to make sure i was thorough...

my point was really that they are just two different ways to achieve the exact same temps for the same amount of time while using similar amounts of energy and whatever heating method you choose is completely up to the person doing the purging...

 

[Pangea]

Its been on my list for awhile but thought I'd throw it out there before I get to it personally in case anyone wants to discuss or tinker with the concept, as it could be bunk.

Degassing via density based separation through centrifugal forces.

Spin some high terp bho @ 35,000rpm and something like 52,000g/rcf, what would happen?

 

[Leonleon08]

https://youtu.be/rFQ9oENNTIA

Hi guys especially GW I've a question about those guys in the video from the endocanna labs Colorado. At minute 7:20 they start talking about wax and they show that they purge it on a hated pad and that's it no vacuum oven just pad and whipping. Is that really possible ? And how many ppm they could be in it ? I'm sure enough for the state of Colorado. But can I do it to ? It will be purged enough? Thanks to all.

 

[Gray Wolf]

https://youtu.be/rFQ9oENNTIA

Hi guys especially GW I've a question about those guys in the video from the endocanna labs Colorado. At minute 7:20 they start talking about wax and they show that they purge it on a hated pad and that's it no vacuum oven just pad and whipping. Is that really possible ? And how many ppm they could be in it ? I'm sure enough for the state of Colorado. But can I do it to ? It will be purged enough? Thanks to all.

That is certainly one of the ways we made "Budder" in the hoary olden days of yore, before vacuum purging.

Sadly, I was never a Budder fan, and my memory isn't long enough to remember ppm, but we did get it under the FDA 5000 ppm, or it would have never left the lab.

Although buddering it exposes more surface to the atmosphere, so as to greatly enhance aroma, I prefer to minimize exposure to oxygen, by keeping it in shatter condition, so as to maintain its shelf life.

That doesn't mean I don't like fresh Budder, because I do, but not the way I've grown most fond of preparing my extracts.

 

[Josh@Summit]

no offense, but i was told being immersed in the alcohol completely purges out the butane, so it's not like i would be combining solvents, just replacing a hard to purge one with an easy to purge one...i don't want to buy a heat pad i just want to know specifically about the questions i asked...

I can see how re-liquefying the oil will purge out the remaining 1% of butane because the small butane bubbles trapped inside will be freed and evaporate off. But like everybody else is saying here, then becomes the problem of having to evaporate the alcohol off. The temperature required to evaporate off the alcohol is generally high enough to also damage terpenes. So in essence you are substituting quality for speed.

 

[SkyHighLer]

https://youtu.be/rFQ9oENNTIA

Hi guys especially GW I've a question about those guys in the video from the endocanna labs Colorado. At minute 7:20 they start talking about wax and they show that they purge it on a hated pad and that's it no vacuum oven just pad and whipping. Is that really possible ? And how many ppm they could be in it ? I'm sure enough for the state of Colorado. But can I do it to ? It will be purged enough? Thanks to all.

Interesting video, highly recommended viewing.

He clearly states they get less butane residue purging by whipping at 120F than vacuum purging. He doesn't say at what temp they vac purge...

Which brings me to the nucleation/auto buddering of their slabs. They almost get it, so close... yes, you're pulling the terpenes out of the matrix. What their conscious mind isn't desperate enough yet to accept is they could avoid stressing it like that by simply not taking the vacuum all the way down, ever. I made the boiling point under vacuum calculations for the first terpene to come off, and never go below that level. The Bp tables and detailed explanation is here at ICMAG, but the short version is 115-120F at down to -29.5" Hg in a thin film just until the bubbling slows to a crawl, maybe a little longer, I never purge for more than an hour. He also mentions moisture coming off too rapidly possibly being the problem, find the vacuum level of the Bp of water at your chosen purge temp, and ease into it, simple huh!? Takes a little time and patience, it's called finesse... My BHO never turns to wax, ever. After the scrape to parchment, the only agitation it gets is the bare minimum parchment dancing to get it into a single pile, I let the warmth from the vac chamber soften it enough to flow into a thin film, no flipping, nothing, I do fold it over a few times post purge for long term storage.

You can't limit the level of your vac purge as described above unless your dial gauge is correct, and they definitely aren't correct above sea level, about 1" Hg for every thousand feet of elevation. If anyone would like to test my theory out, get a micron meter so you know exactly where -29.5" Hg/10,000 micron level is on your dial gauge.

Below is the table for the boiling points of ß-caryophyllene, one of the first terpenes to supposedly come off under vacuum. It, and my other Bp's versus vacuum level tables are discussed in the Proper Vacuum Temp and Pressure thread,

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=6426257#post6426257

 

[Leonleon08]

Thanks GW and SkyhighLer for the response. It always better for my understanding to turn your concentrate in a shatter condition then wax. And about the lab I see in the first minute they have the oven turned around 114.8 F if I'm not wrong. I find your post always great.

 

[Thomas@LRL]

Interesting video, highly recommended viewing.

He clearly states they get less butane residue purging by whipping at 120F than vacuum purging. He doesn't say at what temp they vac purge...

Which brings me to the nucleation/auto buddering of their slabs. They almost get it, so close... yes, you're pulling the terpenes out of the matrix. What their conscious mind isn't desperate enough yet to accept is they could avoid stressing it like that by simply not taking the vacuum all the way down, ever. I made the boiling point under vacuum calculations for the first terpene to come off, and never go below that level. The Bp tables and detailed explanation is here at ICMAG, but the short version is 115-120F at down to -29.5" Hg in a thin film just until the bubbling slows to a crawl, maybe a little longer, I never purge for more than an hour. He also mentions moisture coming off too rapidly possibly being the problem, find the vacuum level of the Bp of water at your chosen purge temp, and ease into it, simple huh!? Takes a little time and patience, it's called finesse... My BHO never turns to wax, ever. After the scrape to parchment, the only agitation it gets is the bare minimum parchment dancing to get it into a single pile, I let the warmth from the vac chamber soften it enough to flow into a thin film, no flipping, nothing, I do fold it over a few times post purge for long term storage.

You can't limit the level of your vac purge as described above unless your dial gauge is correct, and they definitely aren't correct above sea level, about 1" Hg for every thousand feet of elevation. If anyone would like to test my theory out, get a micron meter so you know exactly where -29.5" Hg/10,000 micron level is on your dial gauge.

Below is the table for the boiling points of ß-caryophyllene, one of the first terpenes to supposedly come off under vacuum. It, and my other Bp's versus vacuum level tables are discussed in the Proper Vacuum Temp and Pressure thread,

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=6426257#post6426257

Do you change your procedure for ethanol evaporation? I'm concerned a lot of people doing CO2 are leaving their product in the oven far too long and effectively degrading the product unnecessarily. Your instructions were the ones I used when I first started thin film purging and I've always had incredible results.

 

[SkyHighLer]

I haven't vacuum purged ethanol derived cannabis concentrate, single solvent BHO has been just fine for me since I start with nuggs.

I'd still not go all the way down vacuum purging ethanol, unless it was already decarbed, and I knew it was just going to be runny sap no matter what. But I would take it down fully to -29.5" Hg, and would increase the purge time.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Do you change your procedure for ethanol evaporation? I'm concerned a lot of people doing CO2 are leaving their product in the oven far too long and effectively degrading the product unnecessarily. Your instructions were the ones I used when I first started thin film purging and I've always had incredible results.

I bump the vacuum oven temperature about 10F for ethanol recovery, because of the high viscosity film it makes. It blows huge bubbles in a vacuum oven, that don't want to burst.

 

[Thomas@LRL]

I bump the vacuum oven temperature about 10F for ethanol recovery, because of the high viscosity film it makes. It blows huge bubbles in a vacuum oven, that don't want to burst.

From 115F to 125F? Backing the vacuum back down to accommodate the increased heat or staying at -29.5"Hg? I haven't tried purging that hot yet in an effort to avoid degradation and terpene loss but I'm going to be collecting terpenes via other methods anyway I think.

I'm really digging into Ernesto Reverchons work on SCFE Terpene extraction as an alternative to steam distillation but without multiple separators I don't see myself getting very far. Perhaps collecting via cold trap and vacuum oven immediately after extraction but before filtration would be better.

 

[LostTribe]

ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH DOING RIGHT!!!!INVEST IN A CHEAP VACUUM PUMP AND EITHER BUY OR MAKE YOUR OWN CHAMBER!!!!

 

[Old Gold]

I haven't vacuum purged ethanol derived cannabis concentrate, single solvent BHO has been just fine for me since I start with nuggs.

I'd still not go all the way down vacuum purging ethanol, unless it was already decarbed, and I knew it was just going to be runny sap no matter what. But I would take it down fully to -29.5" Hg, and would increase the purge time.

As smooth as you always claim your dabs to be I would like to suggest that non-distilled cans of "butane" leave a mystery oil that isn't too pleasant on the throat and lungs all the time, and some are more sensitive to it than others. While you are correct about the boiling points under vacuum (even as far back as your original posts on the subject), I think a deeper vacuum and/or a longer purge effectively removes this odor and harshness. Everyone I give dabs to on a daily basis (myself and labmates included) can attest to my dabs being smoother with longer purge times when I know my gas is "dirty". When I am properly operating my loop and distilling 50lb tanks almost daily, I can't say this trend exists at all. I have often smoked the dusty shatter left by my collection pot without any vacuum purge, beyond the final 15 minutes of solvent recovery. I don't think small amounts of pure butane hurt my throat, nor does it taste funky.
Butane is much more volatile than some of that canned residue.

With distilled solvent, I don't drop under 10,000 microns either. 85-90°F generally.