Preserving St. Vincent genetics

[Felice]

Hello everyone,

Already posted a question in the ACE seeds sub-area, but I guess this is a better “real” first post ?

I would like to let you participate in my little project here, trying to preserve a Caribbean landrace, supposedly from the island of St. Vincent.


Some story around:
Years back I was on vacation with my parents, brother and girlfriend on an island called Bequia. A small place, almost nothing happens here, somewhere in the Caribbean. At the beach I met a very kind man, laidback vibes, that had this great spicy smelling sativa bud “growing in the mountains of St. Vincent”, as he said. The high was very strong, psychoactive but still very clear somehow. Completely different to all that I was used to (grew some strains over the years, but mostly outdoors central Europe, so not too much experience with tropical sativas yet). This time was the first and only time I actually smoked with my father. He still keeps telling his friends about this evening “…and suddenly I saw everything clear, as clear as never…” ahah :-D

Anyways, the weed was seeded so I took home around 10 seeds. Having moved to Southern Europe in the meantime, I was quite active in balcony growing.


Only 2 seeds popped, but grew with incredible vigor, I had to cut them over and over again to keep them at bay, but in the end, I decided to just keep 1 (both seemed female at that point - lots of airy leafy buds). I think they did not like the excessive topping, and the remaining plant started showing more and more bananas. I tried to take them, but as the plant did not seem to finish anyways, I might have lost motivation… – and harvested a handful of seeds just before Christmas.

Now, I somehow got ambitious to get into breeding, and wanted to start this by trying to create a stable landrace seed line out of these hermie seeds. I know the chances are not great, but I also see it as an opportunity to test my new indoor equipment before I get on with other breeding projects.


Anyways, on 21/01/21 I put 35 seeds to germinate, and on 24/01/21 another 10 seeds
By 27/01/21 I had 30 sprouts in individual 0.25l containers under 11/13 LED sun. Probably I would get a few more sprouts if waited some days longer, but 30 I decided was a good batch to start with, and space-wise anyways the maximum.

Day 4 (30/01/21) – inventory: seems like 3 phenotypes: 13x lanky and thin leaves; 14x medium and thin l.; 3x robust and wide leaves; overall most plants with green stem, some with darker reddish stem. See first picture.

Day 11 (06/02/21) – 1st update: separated the plants by 4 types, but the more I think about it, I guess #3 and #4 are probably the same phenotype:

- 3x #1 most indica structure, wide leaves: 1x dark stem, 2x thicker stem
- 4x #2 medium indica-sativa structure: 2x dark stem, 1x thicker stem
- 11x #3 sativa structure: 3x dark stem, 2x thicker stem
- 12x #4 most sativa structure: 3x dark stem, 1x thicker stem

The coloration of stems and leave shape and also thickness of stem seems to be relatively unrelated. There are more dark stems being thicker as greens, but e.g. the only “very thick stem” marker for now is on a fully green plant. Anyways, it’s just the start, I’m sure differences will become more apparent in the coming weeks.


I plan to keep them in the small pots as long as possible, c. 2 more weeks I guess, then do a first pre-selection, put the remaining 16-20 plants in bigger (still small) pots and hope to be able to find some sexually stable plants around week 5-6.

If all seem female I know what’s up… Then this report will end there. Fingers crossed ?


Have a nice Sunday,
Felice

 

[therevverend]

Cool project. I've been curious about strains from the lesser Antilles, you don't see or hear much about them but you know they're out there. Probably a lot of good stuff, a mix of Columbian and South American types with Caribbean/British/Indian.

You may not be able to 'fix' the hermaphrodite issues. Since people were used to and expected seeded bud there was never a reason to cull hermies and often hermaphrodites are bigger and more vigorous then true females. If that's the case it's up to you if you want to continue working with it. Most people would chuck it in the trash but I believe there's value in keeping a rare and unique strain even if it produces some seed. Maybe not commercially useful in the present day but if you like it why not keep around.

My recommendation would be to give them plenty of root space and good lighting. Moving a tropical plant indoors subjects it to all sorts of stress it wouldn't normally experienced planted in it's native soil with tropical sun. Tropical sativa types usually don't eat as much as the wide leaf varieties but they like to have room to stretch underground. As growers we tend to focus on canopy space and neglect root space. Cramped tap roots increases the chances of plants turning hermaphrodite. I'd give them space of least 8-12 inches or more to produce a tap root. Width is important too but not as important as depth.

It looks to me you're on top of things, your seedlings look great. Soil looks fluffy and aerated. Your lighting seems to be good and the proper distance from the plants. Good even green growth without excessive stretching. Plants aren't rootbound and have plenty of root space. That's a critical thing I'd try to stay on top of, not letting them sit for weeks totally rootbound. Keeping them healthy and unstressed will increase the odds of producing females without male flowers.

Your seedlings look across the board, wide to thin leaf. The parent stock had to have been hybrids of some sort. I wouldn't reach any sweeping conclusions, culling for weakness and poor growth is one thing but I wouldn't cull based on leaf shape or size. The adult plants may look completely different from seedlings at this stage.

Great first post, hopefully you can keep us updated and let us know how this turns out!

 

[Felice]

Cool project. I've been curious about strains from the lesser Antilles, you don't see or hear much about them but you know they're out there. Probably a lot of good stuff, a mix of Columbian and South American types with Caribbean/British/Indian.

You may not be able to 'fix' the hermaphrodite issues. Since people were used to and expected seeded bud there was never a reason to cull hermies and often hermaphrodites are bigger and more vigorous then true females. If that's the case it's up to you if you want to continue working with it. Most people would chuck it in the trash but I believe there's value in keeping a rare and unique strain even if it produces some seed. Maybe not commercially useful in the present day but if you like it why not keep around.

My recommendation would be to give them plenty of root space and good lighting. Moving a tropical plant indoors subjects it to all sorts of stress it wouldn't normally experienced planted in it's native soil with tropical sun. Tropical sativa types usually don't eat as much as the wide leaf varieties but they like to have room to stretch underground. As growers we tend to focus on canopy space and neglect root space. Cramped tap roots increases the chances of plants turning hermaphrodite. I'd give them space of least 8-12 inches or more to produce a tap root. Width is important too but not as important as depth.

It looks to me you're on top of things, your seedlings look great. Soil looks fluffy and aerated. Your lighting seems to be good and the proper distance from the plants. Good even green growth without excessive stretching. Plants aren't rootbound and have plenty of root space. That's a critical thing I'd try to stay on top of, not letting them sit for weeks totally rootbound. Keeping them healthy and unstressed will increase the odds of producing females without male flowers.

Your seedlings look across the board, wide to thin leaf. The parent stock had to have been hybrids of some sort. I wouldn't reach any sweeping conclusions, culling for weakness and poor growth is one thing but I wouldn't cull based on leaf shape or size. The adult plants may look completely different from seedlings at this stage.

Great first post, hopefully you can keep us updated and let us know how this turns out!

Hi Revverend, thanks a lot for the kind feedback!
Very informative, it really helps.
I'm fully aware that I might get 100% hermies, still I hope to get lucky and find some sexually stable male and female plants. If I will keep some even if they all show hermaphroditism - I don't know yet, all depends on how favorable the plant itself. Let's be optimistic here ;-)

About the root space: The next bigger step I thought about transplanting them in 1L Tetra Pak Juice/Milk cartons (sterilized), they are c. 7.5 inches in height, and 3 inch squared. This way I could keep around 20 plants until sexing. Do you think these would be sufficient?
When I had the hermie plant outdoors it was in a huge pot, so either it was the topping she didn't like, or, worst case, the hermaphroditism sits deeper.

Anyways, we'll see

Cheers
Felice

 

[troutman]

Make more seeds.

 

[Felice]

Make more seeds.

Will do my best

 

[elchischas]

Nice story amigo...
With pure sativa lines at my opinión,no matter if you got a bunch of hermi plants, in my experience i found the Best individuals in pure mexican and asian lines the hermi ones. So just keep working with it, Make more seeds and choose the long flowering ones,but remember all is about the potency so also choose the potent ones with the classic sativa up
Saludos.

 

[zifozonke]

Sadly most of these old landrace genetics have already been plundered and watered down with crappy dutch genetics

 

[JockBudman]

Ah'll be watchin this one, ah thought you could only get hermies from herm seeds, but it would be cool if you got males.

 

[Podenco]

Lovely experimental grow. I would multiply them, hermies or not, IF they are worth it. And though these plants are pretty in themselves, worth it is "do they give me a smoke I like?".

If I had perfect plants, I'd prefer a hermie above only pure females.

P

 

[herblux]

Exciting project Felice! Great that you're taking your chances with them. Best of luck to find some stable plants with great effects

 

[therevverend]

About the root space: The next bigger step I thought about transplanting them in 1L Tetra Pak Juice/Milk cartons (sterilized), they are c. 7.5 inches in height, and 3 inch squared. This way I could keep around 20 plants until sexing. Do you think these would be sufficient?

Sometimes you have to make do with what you have as opposed to what you would like to have ideally. 12 inches is ideal, 7.5 should be fine.

Maybe they'll hermie no matter how big a pot you have. You try to hit as many of the right conditions as you can give them indoors to let the plants do their thing. At least if you give them over 6 inches to push their tap root down it's one more stress factor you've eliminated. You want to eliminate the stress factors indoors so if they throw bananas you know it's genetic and not conditional. That way you can either chuck the strain with no regrets or work with it knowing it'll always show intersex if it's something special worth working with.

 

[Cvh]

Sadly most of these old landrace genetics have already been plundered and watered down with crappy dutch genetics

Not only crappy Dutch genetics, also shit American made seeds.

I would personally call it Western Hybrids...No point on blaming it all on the Dutch.
Btw, the Americans love to always claim that all the Dutch their genetics originates from America and are just watered down American strains and that they are the original inventors of the hybrids.

 

[Felice]

Thanks to all for the kind words!

Will try to look out for even taller containers, let's see what I can find.
In case I need to filter out before sexing (depending on their vigor and chosen container size), I thought about keeping a few of each expression, from wide to narrow leaf, green to dark stem, thin to thick stem (markers so far). But for now, they can keep on growing happily as they are.

I found a picture of the plant, here you see the huge amount of leaves she was putting out. I hope to keep that at bay indoors with shorter light cycles, and also the usage of far red light to simulate end-of-day.

 

[Felice]

Just a small update, gave them some water (50ml each, ph-adjusted), and took a picture. All growing nicely, looking healthy.
On saturday I will do the weekly check, and update my notes.

Have a nice day
Felice

 

[G13Fan]

Not only crappy Dutch genetics, also shit American made seeds.

I would personally call it Western Hybrids...No point on blaming it all on the Dutch.
Btw, the Americans love to always claim that all the Dutch their genetics originates from America and are just watered down American strains and that they are the original inventors of the hybrids.

Horrid shit attitude and one of the reasons this site is considered a bunch of grouchy jealous complaining haters.

 

[G13Fan]

Just a small update, gave them some water (50ml each, ph-adjusted), and took a picture. All growing nicely, looking healthy.
On saturday I will do the weekly check, and update my notes.

View Image

Have a nice day
Felice

Great plants and great positive attitude thank you for making my day with your nice thread.

 

[Felice]

Great plants and great positive attitude thank you for making my day with your nice thread.

Thanks mate! Good vibes only - it's our common hobby

 

[Cvh]

Horrid shit attitude and one of the reasons this site is considered a bunch of grouchy jealous complaining haters.

What's the problem my friend? Is it that you can't stand any negative comments about hybrids? Or is that you can't deal with any comments that aren't positive about America? Or is it that if somebody tries to blame everything on Europe and somebody reacts to that this triggers you somehow?

About horrid shit attitude, maybe you should reread your post against me...

Why don't you PM me like an adult man instead of posting publicly? Let's us deal this situation in private.

 

[Felice]

Saturday update, 13-Feb-21, Day 18

The St. Vincent’s are progressing nicely, no issues, all are developing more or less as they should, no failures or similar.

Today’s check-up and note-taking showed again the diversity in the genetics, 3 clear phenotypes, ranging from robust indica structure and wide leaves (6 plants = 20%), over hybrid structure (4 plants = 13%), to mostly typical Sativa looks, lanky and narrow leaves (20 plants = 67%).

60:40 green to dark/reddish stems (18 to 12 plants).

I guess in c. 7 days I will put them in the final pots.
I found some squared pots, 11x11x23cm (4.3x4.3x9inch), which should arrive mid next week.
I hope that's a good compromise in terms of keeping the highest number of plants until sexing, and still having rather tall pots to avoid `being-rootbound` stress.
When re-potting most likely have to cull out c. 10 plants. Will most likely keep a similar amount from each pheno and eliminate the lanky ones with the weaker structure.
Let's seeeee ;-)

Enjoy the weekend amigos!

Felice

 

[Felice]

And here the 3 phenotypes in a very typical expression side by side: