Please help identify deficincies

[Avant-Green]

Hello IC,

I have some plants here that have been transplanted into some pro-mix ultimate organic mix soil. These plants were transplanted from miracle grow organic soil mix, they weren't doing so hot in that so they were transplanted into the pro mix. Didn't want to use miracle grow soil but it was all that was available at the moment till pro mix was attained. Since being in the pro mix for a few weeks I think they're showing nitrogen and phosphorous deficiencies and possibly even calcium and magnisium?

Here is what we have to work with as far as nutes


So far they have received a does of the FFGB but just a 1/2 teaspoon per gallon with some liquid karma 2 teaspoons per gallon and that was 6 days ago, think it needs more then that? We also have some budswell 0-7-0 some sulfer and lime. Please help green these babies up! thank you for your input.


ssh x nl10




another ssh x nl4




sweet kush9


sweet kush10


sweet kush6




Grape krush5






GK4






chem dog ix 4




Blue sat 7




Geisha4




Geisha3





Geisha 2

 

[Quazi]

N/Phos def sounds right.

The brown nastiness you're seeing is probably phos.

The general yellowness in some of the lower leaves is possibly N.

Fill out the report from the top of the forum:
Check it

That will help out.

I would say that because of both problems together that you could have pH problems at work.

The spotting that you're seeing is possibly manganese/calcium def.

-Q

 

[Avant-Green]

SOIL:

How long has this problem been going on? couple weeks
What STRAIN are you growing? ssh x nl, grape krush, sweet kush, geisha
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) seed
What is the age of your plants? around 40 days from seed
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now? 2 or 3 weeks
How Tall are the plants? between 3 and 6 or 7 inches
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? veg
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc) SOG
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 20oz bottles
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using? (percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) Pro Mix organic mix with 20-30% perlite
What Nutrient's are you using? Fox farms grow big and some liquid karma
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* only used FFGB once, 1/2 teaspoon per gallon
How often are you feeding? feed once a week ago
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? NA
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? NA
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? NA
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen? have the ph dripper mixture
How often are you watering? when needed
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? 7 days ago, only feed once
What size bulb are you using? 23watt cfl's
What is the distance to the canopy? between 3 and 5 inchs
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) 60ish +/- 10
What is the canopy temperature? 68-72
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range) lights 24 7
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) NA
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? No vent system yet
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? NA
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? Moist, to dry
Is your water HARD or SOFT? NA from the tap
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? Tap
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched? No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when? neem +k
Are plant's infected with pest's? some gnats


Can this problem be fixed with the materials i have



Fox Farm Grow big 6-4-4
Budswell 0-7-0
Liquid Karma... should i be foliar feeding?
Some garden lime
some garden sulfur

Thanks again Q!

 

[Weedhound]

I agree. The plant is screamng FEED ME!!!! Isn't Pro mix considered pretty low in nutes if having any at all? Feed the poor thing some grow nutes and I wouldn't get your fingers too close......that is a HUNGRY looking plant.

 

[Weedhound]

Also you need to find out the ph of the tap water you are using and the soil runoff. That's pretty important info so it would help ALOT to know.

 

[Avant-Green]

Thanks Weedhound. Do you think some extra phosphorus should be added or just some strait up FFGB 6-4-4 with liquid karma?

The ph of the water is 7

Thanks again

PS can fox farm nutes go bad? this bottle of fox farms has been laying around for some time...

 

[master shake]

feed them only some veg nutes, and yes grow big can go bad, shelf life is about 2 years, it should last a little longer I think but no telling how long it was on the shelf at your hydro store. Swirl the bottle rapidly and put your ear on the bottom of the bottle and listen for any solids. It also looks like the temps may be a little low, this can cause slowed growth and P problems.

 

[Avant-Green]

Thanks master shake, I think ive had that bottle for like 3 years. I'll test it out and see if it works or not and also listen for solids. I'll try and boost the temps and see if we can't get some healthier looking plants in a few days hopefully. Thanks all, i'll post some updates in a few days.

 

[Quazi]

Straight tap water = chlorine or chloramine.

If there's chlorine, you can evaporate out the chlorine by letting the water sit uncovered or add a bubbler if you like and let it out for 24 hours before use.

If there's chloramine, then you've got to find a way to filter the chloramine out or remove it. Be careful rushing to the pet store to get some stuff used for aquariums as a byproduct of the chloramine removal with certain substances is salt. High salinity in the soil is not a good thing.

Back to the chlorine/chloramine: both kill the things that make organic grows successful.

I'm guessing you're trying to go the organic route by whatcha got goin' here.

I'd find out about the chlorine first by asking sources you know or just calling up the water supply company. You'll probably get someone on the phone who won't know what you're talking about. If so, just politely ask to speak to someone who can answer your questions for sure. They'll be able to forward you to someone who can answer you.

In the meantime, I'd suggest using distilled water that's got a decent pH as you've got your micronutrients partially covered with the Grow Big. I would consider adding a shot of the P guano (I'm assuming that's what it is) by either mixing a bit in with the feeding or applying a light dressing of the stuff on the top of the soil. If you're in to bubbling teas, you could bubble some stuff up as well.

I've worked with guano before as a top dressing and it works pretty derned good. But: to each their own.

Now, don't go overfeeding your girls. P deficiencies will recover over time, but you'll see it in the new growth much more prominently than the leaves which have already been damaged.

Also, you said you're 40 days in from seed in the form. However, the Blue Sat, Krush and Geishas all look like they could be from clone. If any of those plants are really 40 days old, then they are quite stunted. Could be a combination of the coolish temps and deficiencies. Was that a typo?

Anyway: you can get those girls recovered from their Miracle Grow beginnings.

Hope that helps!

Good luck in your travels!

-Q

 

[Kinderfeld]

dude you have mass lockout of many things... what is your RUNOFF ph? The ph of what you put it means pretty much nothing compared to what comes out. Then go from there, I wouldn't add any nutes or anything till you test it...stop trying to add a bunch of shit to fix something when you need to diagnose BEFORE trying to resolve, otherwise chances are you'll just make it worse.

on a side note I heard not to use that kind of garden lime, many people have problems with it...

 

[Quazi]

His post was asking about identifying deficiencies not whether he had pH problems.

The answer the question for the post: yes, his plants are exhibiting some deficiencies. They are probably deficiencies that were identified.

Now, whether those are solved via pH or not: he has no amendments in the soil so he's going to probably have to feed to make up for those deficiencies in either case.

Instead of just telling everyone they're wrong about helping him to feed the plant, you could have just suggested that pH lockout could be a concern. Instead, you feel the need to come into the thread and offer no assistance to the person who is actually having troubles.

What if you're wrong when you say this:

dude you have mass lockout of many things... what is your RUNOFF ph?

Did you think of that? The possibility that you could be incorrect and that this plant just needs more food?

What if his runoff pH is fine?

The ph of what you put it means pretty much nothing compared to what comes out.

Really? Why does anyone bother to check the pH of the water coming out of their tap then? Why not never test your water and only test the runoff? Oh yea: 'cause then you wouldn't know if the water is being affected by the soil, or if the soil was being affected by the water because you wouldn't know the pH of the water.

Testing both is helpful, and the theory that these could be lockout problems and not deficiencies is a valid one.

Don't know why you have to come across the way you did.

A simple: "you should check the runoff of your pH to make sure it isn't just nutrients being locked out", would have been just fine.

And "on a side note": I've personally used the lime he's talking about with success and so have others in these forums as well as others I know. It's not as fast-acting as the powdered type and it's not the preferred type for quick-fix applications, but if you let your soil sit a while before you use it then you'll find it sweetens it up just fine. So: what kind of problems could it cause? Are there examples of plants reacting poorly to the lime because it was in a different form? Or are you talking about examples of people who weren't aware that it didn't absorb as quickly as powdered dolomite, thus causing problems with their soil? Because, those are two different things.

We're all just trying to help each other.

-Q

 

[Avant-Green]

Hey Quazi,

Thanks for all your help thus far, They were given 1 teaspoon FGB, 1 heaping teaspoon guano, and 2 teaspoons of LK. No lime yet, do you think a top dressing should go down? Haven't checked the PH of the runoff yet, need to get a tester. I'll post back when i get the ph and i'll update the status of the ladies. With this promix should they be getting feed every watering? i was thinking every other watering? Thanks again Q

Kinderfeld thanks for the input but...

...stop trying to add a bunch of shit to fix something when you need to diagnose BEFORE trying to resolve, otherwise chances are you'll just make it worse.

Thats what i was doing, i didnt add anything until i got some info back i was trying to get help identifying the problem, i know there are a number of problems but I have to start somewhere and i felt like i was getting some nice advice from everyone and i implemented the advice i felt was best. But i didn't just decide to add a bunch of nutes to try and fix a problem. Thanks for you suggestions though.

 

[MickTheBrag]

the spots are where water has spilt on the plant and burned with the light and the plant is suffering a bit of heatstress.
also the plant needs a good high N fertilizer. some blood fish and bone would be good. but hey no real major problems man. peace mick.

 

[Soulman869]

i had some plants that started to get only a little discolored like this, mainly they are started to droop. their leaves before, would extend out all the way, then they started to droop down towards the ground, looking unhealthy, they ended up dying. right off the bat, any ideas anyone?

 

[Quazi]

Hey Quazi,

Thanks for all your help thus far, They were given 1 teaspoon FGB, 1 heaping teaspoon guano, and 2 teaspoons of LK. No lime yet, do you think a top dressing should go down? Haven't checked the PH of the runoff yet, need to get a tester. I'll post back when i get the ph and i'll update the status of the ladies. With this promix should they be getting feed every watering? i was thinking every other watering? Thanks again Q

Sure thing Avant!

As far as top dressing with the dolomite, it's possible to do with the type you have but it won't be as effective as the powdered stuff. Recently a mate of mine successfully helped a pH problem with the same kind of dolomite you have as a top dressing. So, it's possible, just don't expect results as quickly.

You can certainly give it a try. But, when/if you transport them to bigger containers, mix some of the dolomite into the soil.

-Q

 

[Kinderfeld]

His post was asking about identifying deficiencies not whether he had pH problems.

The answer the question for the post: yes, his plants are exhibiting some deficiencies. They are probably deficiencies that were identified.

Now, whether those are solved via pH or not: he has no amendments in the soil so he's going to probably have to feed to make up for those deficiencies in either case.

Instead of just telling everyone they're wrong about helping him to feed the plant, you could have just suggested that pH lockout could be a concern. Instead, you feel the need to come into the thread and offer no assistance to the person who is actually having troubles.

Trying to figure out the problems is assistance, and I did suggest PH lockout to be a concern as you said.

What if you're wrong when you say this:

Did you think of that? The possibility that you could be incorrect and that this plant just needs more food?

What if his runoff pH is fine?


Really? Why does anyone bother to check the pH of the water coming out of their tap then? Why not never test your water and only test the runoff? Oh yea: 'cause then you wouldn't know if the water is being affected by the soil, or if the soil was being affected by the water because you wouldn't know the pH of the water.

-Q

What if I am wrong? What if it needs more food? what if his ph is fine what if runoof is fine...?

That's the point of testing it to find out. Also you can check your PH of your tap but it doesn't matter AS MUCH as the runoff. Poeple check their tap PH to get an idea of what they are working with which is good but then poeple go and think well my tap water is good ph so my plants must be growing in good ph which is very very false. Once you water your plants the ph will change.

Here is an idea stop telling him to add food when you have no idea what his runoff is. The PH of what you put in is not as important as what comes out. It is important thus it needs to be t4ested but how do you know what PH to put in if you don't know your runoff. Your runoff could be 5.0 for all you know or 8.0 your telling me your going to add the same ph'd ranged water for both those? Your all telling him to feed feed feed yet you have NO CLUE what his runoff is...what if it is way off scale and all that feed you just added isn't absorbed because its LOCKED out and NOT a deficiency, you'll basically kill his plants.

Testing both is helpful, and the theory that these could be lockout problems and not deficiencies is a valid one.

Don't know why you have to come across the way you did.

A simple: "you should check the runoff of your pH to make sure it isn't just nutrients being locked out", would have been just fine.

And "on a side note": I've personally used the lime he's talking about with success and so have others in these forums as well as others I know. It's not as fast-acting as the powdered type and it's not the preferred type for quick-fix applications, but if you let your soil sit a while before you use it then you'll find it sweetens it up just fine. So: what kind of problems could it cause? Are there examples of plants reacting poorly to the lime because it was in a different form? Or are you talking about examples of people who weren't aware that it didn't absorb as quickly as powdered dolomite, thus causing problems with their soil? Because, those are two different things.

We're all just trying to help each other.

I did not mean to come off as well whatever I did, all I said was check the runoff because its going to be different then your PH tap. Your right it COULD be fine. It MIGHT not matter...you don't want to know the soil ph before you start telling him to add a bunch of shit fine, go right ahead. As far as the lime like I posted I have read people on the forums with problems, I have never used it myself so I wouldn't know.
Again meant no harm, anyone who thinks I am here just to bust there bubble I am really not. Again I apologize to those who feel hurt by my comments, it was not the intention.

Thats what i was doing, i didnt add anything until i got some info back i was trying to get help identifying the problem, i know there are a number of problems but I have to start somewhere .

Bingo. And the place you start? Is PH. Simply trying to identify if this is a deficiency or lockout. Like I also said you could have the most perfect PH'd water in the world but if your soil drops its two whole points then you need to fix it. You'll never know what PH to put IN until you find out what kind of PH is coming out.

Its not a hard concept really. I am 90% sure this is a lockout due to ph and you shouldn't be feeding them.

 

[magiccannabus]

on a side note I heard not to use that kind of garden lime, many people have problems with it...

It's pelletized, so you have to use more of it, because it releases a lot slower. Either that or you must bust it up by hand. I use the same soil as this guy, but mixed with Pro-Mix for containers, and the whole mix has 50% perlite. My mix has been working just fine for as long as I have been using it anyway, which is about 3 years.

That said, if you can get the lime in crushed form, that is very handy.

 

[Weedninja]

WOW! How'd I miss this one? I agree with Kinder. You can throw all the nutes you want at a problem, but if the pH is bad a.) they won't get absorbed and b.) they can really fuck shit up. If your pH is already high, lime is going to tear your plants up.

It's true that regular Pro Mix is low in nutes, but he's using the potting soil, which is their answer to FFOF.

 

[Pirate]

Here is an idea stop telling him to add food when you have no idea what his runoff is. The PH of what you put in is not as important as what comes out. It is important thus it needs to be tested but how do you know what PH to put in if you don't know your runoff. Your runoff could be 5.0 for all you know or 8.0 your telling me your going to add the same ph'd ranged water for both those? Your all telling him to feed feed feed yet you have NO CLUE what his runoff is...what if it is way off scale and all that feed you just added isn't absorbed because its LOCKED out and NOT a deficiency, you'll basically kill his plants.

BINGO !! How right you are. I see people diagnosing problems all over the boards here and the suggestions are to feed this or feed that 90% of the time. (cal/mag is a favorite for most around here)I don't know why.

Listen Kinderfeld ! He's giving you good advice and trying to save your plants.

 

[tree&leaf]

Plant deficiencies can be caused by a number of things, but in soil it's rarely ever ph. Fussing over ph in soil is a hangover from hydro growers, where ph is critical, it's not in soil, unless your water is way out of the ph range. I don't ph my water, I don't even own a ph meter, but I do know that it's hard water and about 7.5 in the ph range, but I still grow great plants with no problems.

A water ph of 7.5 is still fine for nutrient uptake, it's not optimal, but they won't fall over and die either. There are two specific reasons why you shouldn't worry about water ph in soil, 1) because it takes an awful lot of that water to move the soils own ph one way or the other and by the time it does (if it does) you willl have repotted. 2) the ph adjustors used to adjust water ph will either kill the soil micro-bacteria (if using acid adjustors) or be innefective (if using friendly types like citric acid) because they don't hold the ph stable for long enough. Killing the soil micro-bacteria in organic soil will REDUCE nutrient availability and subsequent uptake, so you don't want to do that. It's not an issue in hydro because most of the time there are no micro-bacteria and the plant is being fed chemical/mineral nutrients which are immediately available.

Forget the water and ph and concentrate on getting your soil correctly prepared and amended for plant growth and focus your attentions on how to water your plants correctly. I also suspect you've got bad drainage in those pots, and I'd advise putting them into some correct plant pots.

It's critical to water your plants correctly and to get a little runoff from the pot each watering. Not too much because that will leach nutrients from the soil, just enough to push out wastes and salts but retain plant nutrients.

I'd look at your soil quality and watering technique and/or drainage as the source of your problems.