S
secondtry
Cool thanks for the info.
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Plant sap analysis
- Thread starter Maina
- Start date
Cool thanks for the info.
S
secondtry
Hey there Maina,
From your big post:
The method suggested to find media and compost pH isn't ideal. It's better to find pHw or using PourThru to find pH. The method suggested by Pike-Agri is common but not the best method.
Thanks, all the best (please don't take this post, not any of my other ones as an attack, they are not meant as such)
From your big post:
Where did that info come from? From Bill Pike? I ask because I don't agree. That is a high pH, too high and to small of a range; more correct would be ideally 6-7.5, and > 5.5 is fine as is 8. There is a flux of pH during the composting process, IIRC generally it starts higher at the pH you made the pile when mixing it by adding lime (mesophilic), then goes lower (peak thermophilic), then goes higher (late-low thermophilic and mesophilic).
The method suggested to find media and compost pH isn't ideal. It's better to find pHw or using PourThru to find pH. The method suggested by Pike-Agri is common but not the best method.
Thanks, all the best (please don't take this post, not any of my other ones as an attack, they are not meant as such)
S
secondtry
From what I understand Bruce Tainio was the one who spearheaded this area of development and he died recently. I don't know about 'just' and think it's been around for at least 10 years but just catching on. His son Marc has taken over. Gary Zimmer, of Midwestern Bio-Ag, and his group are also big into this I believe. Acres Magazine puts out a CD of a talk Bruce gave but covered a lot of other stuff not just sap pH.
I do think this will be the next big wave in horticulture and those wanting to push the envelope will be applying sap pH analysis to their grows and take the guesswork out of the equation.
While I have not applied this will get the opportunity to work with someone in the fields soon that's been using it for a few years. Should be awesome
Thanks for that. Really, thanks. Do you have links to white papers or other technical papers/data?
J
*Journeyman*
No white papers...sorry. I kind of work with someone who kind of worked directly with Bruce. Maybe try and work with his son Marc? I work on a straight up ag project so easy for me to pick up the phone. The info I got from Gary was in his book The Biological Farmer but also kind of know people who kind of know Gary.
Going back to brix...part of the project I'm working on provided some info you may want to research a bit more. A combination of certain things as a foliar raised brix levels 2 points in 24 hours. Still doing some research on that whole thing and think it has to do mainly with enzyme function/activity which leads me most likely to trace and ultra trace elements. Enzymes are responsible for creating sugars and they almost always require an element co-factor to be active. Brix is more than just sugar though but mostly.
One thing to look at are Rare Earth Elements. The Chinese have done a lot of research and have used extensively but mainly I think as lanthanum chloride. It seems RRE's may be key to enzyme function particularly those related to calcium processing. While not required they are beneficial and looks like they optimize calcium processing in a supportive role. I would think something like a pyrophyllite clay could be good. A fantastic source of amorphic silica and also good for trace minerals and some RRE's.
Here's THE de facto standard RRE paper on the planet IMO:
http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=98212497x&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=98212497x.pdf
The other thing would be trace/ultra trace elements specifically. Don't think the brix increase was due to the calcium application but most likely more with the trace minerals supporting sugar formation or could have been the combination of the two. Really could have been the calcium though spiking the reading if that's possible. Still...look at supporting enzymes for better brix.
Man Im new to all of this myself and trying to learn ,thats why im going to pike and geting some hands on with this stuff sorry I wouldnt want to be wrong.Back to the book gary zimmers whats the name of it and how do I get it? thanks GUYS for all the help you are showing to the new guy realy thank you!
J
*Journeyman*
The Biological Farmer. I got mine from Acres magazine. Very little info about brix in those 350+ pages. Mainly geared for farmers working conventional crops on open acreage. Still some nice info from a non canna perspective. Don't remember any info about sap pH.
S
secondtry
Thanks for the info, I will read that paper soon.
What you wrote is interesting because I add Ca** in my foliar spray for the same reason, to increase brix (with sufficient irridiance, etc). There are many studies showing a link between Ca content and increase in brix, although there are many other elements which also positive effect brix. Hmmm.
**I use Ca in the form of OMRI amino acid chelate so it has high leaf permanently especially with fulvic acid and Melted Water Structure applied in high RH (> 80% and >95% is better) in the dark using a non-ionic surfactant. The high RH swells the leaf aqueous pores which allows the solution to more easily reach the leaf cuticle. Ca (as amino acid chelate) can pass the cuticle pretty effectively, but using Melted Water Structure basically equalizes the structure of foliar spray water to that of the water inside leaf cells, this increases the permeation of the solution passing the cuticle. Fulvic acid can increase chlorophyll and IIRC it assists in leaf cuticle permeation by solute. Keep RH high all night while lights are 'off'; foliar spray is actively absorbed by leaf for over 15 hours in most cases. Following the method I layed out above insures very high and fast permeation of leaf by Ca.
GL
Here is where I get my amino acid macro (Ca) and micronutrients for foliage spray:
(its inexpensive)
http://www.essential_plant_nutrients.miracletreecare.com/
I try to foliar spay with Ca and Mg every two weeks, it's OMRI amino acids and can supply the maconutrient Ca and micronutreint Mg which can be limiting factors in organic horticulture of cannabis.
S
secondtry
Two more points about why spraying with Ca is good:
1. Ca is not a mobile element in plants (once fixed), so spraying with Ca is helpful as the plant can't move Ca from a lower leaf to a higher leaf (like it can with N).
2. Spraying elements on leaf avoids nutrient lockout concerns in media while still providing needed Ca (for example).
1. Ca is not a mobile element in plants (once fixed), so spraying with Ca is helpful as the plant can't move Ca from a lower leaf to a higher leaf (like it can with N).
2. Spraying elements on leaf avoids nutrient lockout concerns in media while still providing needed Ca (for example).
J
*Journeyman*
That's a bit over my head but will say the calcium used in the scenario I mentioned was not chelated but a specialized form of calcium carbonate and vewy vewy small like almost sub micron small...lol. So was delivering Ca and carbonate I guess so maybe the carbonate portion added to sugar synthesis if the CaCo3 molecule was really disassociated after entering the stomata? Guess you could use something like fulvic acid to help with that disassociation if it could not be supported by natural cell compounds/processes? Can a Ca ion skew brix readings?
If brix measures mainly sugar how does calcium raise sugar levels? Where's the calcium in sugar? Is calcium part of sugar creation? Probably some stupid little thing I missed...and yes I failed miserably at chemistry in high school but am getting better lately.
My head is starting to hurt but will look closer at plant cell sugar formation/processing...thanx.
If brix measures mainly sugar how does calcium raise sugar levels? Where's the calcium in sugar? Is calcium part of sugar creation? Probably some stupid little thing I missed...and yes I failed miserably at chemistry in high school but am getting better lately.
My head is starting to hurt but will look closer at plant cell sugar formation/processing...thanx.
S
secondtry
Hey,
ha, sorry.
Here's the simple version: spray plants with a source of Ca that the leaf can easily absorb after the HID/lights are turned off and use a non-ionic surfactant; spray at the start of the plants' night. The link I gave you is for a good source of OMRI Ca as amino acid chelate.
Calcium effects the plant so it increases the amount of sucrose in the leaf 'sap' (if you will), as does N, K, increased irridiance (to saturation point), etc. The form of Ca is important as some pass into the leaf easier/better than others and few are organic (OMRI). Applying Ca and Mg as foliar is helpful because they can be limiting elements in organics and Ca is immobile.
HTH
ha, sorry.
Here's the simple version: spray plants with a source of Ca that the leaf can easily absorb after the HID/lights are turned off and use a non-ionic surfactant; spray at the start of the plants' night. The link I gave you is for a good source of OMRI Ca as amino acid chelate.
Calcium effects the plant so it increases the amount of sucrose in the leaf 'sap' (if you will), as does N, K, increased irridiance (to saturation point), etc. The form of Ca is important as some pass into the leaf easier/better than others and few are organic (OMRI). Applying Ca and Mg as foliar is helpful because they can be limiting elements in organics and Ca is immobile.
HTH
J
*Journeyman*
Hey what do you think about using something like magnesium chloride hexaydrate. I know this is the Organic Soil forum but...lol. It's a 6 water molecule basket of water molecules with a magnesium chloride molecule stuffed inside. Normally the inside of this structure is filled with a gas like methane and forms methane hydrate on the deep ocean floor. In dry flowing form MgCl2.6H2O is about 35% water.
Any application here in growing? Would never think to mess with it but interesting a magnesium available in a water basket.
S
secondtry
Here is where I get my amino acid macro (Ca) and micronutrients for foliage spray:
(its inexpensive)
http://www.essential_plant_nutrients.miracletreecare.com/
S
secondtry
Hey,
I usually apply it at 60-100 ppm. But I have emailed the owner of the company asking for suggested application rates on tomatoes and bell peppers by ppm. He suggested going over 100ppm but I have not done so yet, he was only speaking from memory, he was not sure, so he will send me data. Also, check the water pH after adding the Ca, foliar spray should be between 6-6.5 pH.
Here is a good read about Ca:
"Calcium: The new vogue"
Joel Simmons
He is a former County Extension Agent and the owner of Earth Works Natural Organic Products. He is currently teaching Soil Fertility at the Rutgers Turf Management Program.
http://www.soilfirst.com/tnm_12_1997.htm
HTH
I usually apply it at 60-100 ppm. But I have emailed the owner of the company asking for suggested application rates on tomatoes and bell peppers by ppm. He suggested going over 100ppm but I have not done so yet, he was only speaking from memory, he was not sure, so he will send me data. Also, check the water pH after adding the Ca, foliar spray should be between 6-6.5 pH.
Here is a good read about Ca:
"Calcium: The new vogue"
Joel Simmons
He is a former County Extension Agent and the owner of Earth Works Natural Organic Products. He is currently teaching Soil Fertility at the Rutgers Turf Management Program.
http://www.soilfirst.com/tnm_12_1997.htm
HTH
S
secondtry
Here is another good read:
"Foliar Feeding with Calcium" (paper is attached to this post)
"Foliar Feeding with Calcium" (paper is attached to this post)
J
*Journeyman*
Enzymes! Gotta support enzyme activity. I talked to one crop consultant recently and he was almost beating the desk emphasizing the need for adequate calcium levels.
What he's talking about with pathogens probing has to do with something like powdery mildew. What he's talking about with pathogens probing has to do with something like powdery mildew. The spore inserts a condida(?) and starts to release pectolytic enzymes which breakdown the pectin structure between plant cells. Adequate calcium basically deactivates pectolytic enzymes.
As for the Foliar Feeding with Calcium thing if you notice the first one is a dihydrate or a calcium chloride molecule bound to two water molecules. Similar to the magnesium hexahydrate I mentioned about. Kind of interesting cause when the calcium is disassociated you get some free water inside the cell.
Yeah since any free calcium in the cell can affect brix readings does not mean that sugar content has been bumped up...from what I understand...but also calcium helps provide for formal transport and retention of other elements.
Brix is a way to measure plant health as someone mentioned before and yes it is somewhat relative. The reason N, K, Ca effect brix (not throw it off or interfere with it's readings) is because brix is also a way to track the effect of fertilizer application/assimilation. Plants use fertilizer to help produce sugars "by proxy". In this regards fertilizer is not plant "food". CO2 would be better thought of as plant food. After all plants are near 99% or more comprised of C, H and O.
I would avoid chloride forms of nutrients like potassium, calcium and magnesium chloride if possible as chloride can become damaging quickly. As for the hydrates, many ionic compounds are found in the hydrate forms and if there not they will be anhydrous and cost more. Calcium nitrate and Magnesium Sulphate etc, etc, are found in the hepta and hexahydrate forms and so on.
I would avoid chloride forms of nutrients like potassium, calcium and magnesium chloride if possible as chloride can become damaging quickly. As for the hydrates, many ionic compounds are found in the hydrate forms and if there not they will be anhydrous and cost more. Calcium nitrate and Magnesium Sulphate etc, etc, are found in the hepta and hexahydrate forms and so on.
