Plant Growth Regulators (PGRs) thread

[dizzlekush]

sorry all. im sure this has been brought up elsewhere but my lack of usage of this site is making this redundancy take place.

i came across these two articles when i was doing a little research on triacontanol

"Triacontanol (TRIA), a long chain aliphatic alcohol (C30H61OH) reverses the effect of jasmonic acid (JA) in inducing proteinase inhibitors (PIs) in tomato leaves. Porcine pancreas trypsin and Spodoptera litura gut proteinases were inhibited in the presence of leaf proteins treated with JA, and TRIA partially reverses this effect. Spodoptera litura larvae fed with tomato leaves treated with JA were reduced in body weight and TRIA is able to partially reverse this JA-induced effect. These results reflect the partial reversal effect of TRIA in down regulating the JA-induced production of proteinase inhibitors. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15128037?dopt=Abstract

"Two down-regulated genes were identified as those encoding an ABA- and stress-related protein and a wounding-related protein. These results suggested that TRIA up-regulated the photosynthesis process and suppressed stresses in rice plants."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12198189?dopt=Abstract

maybe im making something out of nothing with my incompetence but it seems like triacontanol might suppress jasmonic acids and therefore increases photosynthesis and certain other things by cutting down on trichome production and other stress related aspects of plant growth. if anyone with some knowledge on the subject would care to spread the love id be appreciative.

So i should be getting my 1L of Nutri Stim Triacontanol 2.5% and my 7lbs of polysorbate 20 within the next 3 days. once i do, i will be following Spurrs instructions on making a stock solution but i will be halving it because Nutri Stim warns to not store watered down solution of their product for some reason. wish i had more bio/chem prowess as to understand if i should care or not.

i will be testing 4 different concentrations of triacontanol along with having a control group. the concentrations i will be testing are .25ppm, .5ppm, 1ppm and the control group. there will be 15 plants in each group, as well as an entire 2nd grow undergoing the same test with 20+ plants per group.

i plan to spray every 2 weeks maybe stopping at the 2nd week of bloom due triacontanol having a very lasting effect and possible triacontanol - jasmonic acid negative crosstalk, unless some clarification happens on my part or another members.

i also purchased Jaz Rose Spray and will be testing at different concentrations as well. i will most likely be testing the MDHJ at 30ppm, 60ppm, 90ppm, the control group and most likely i will test a few plants at much higher concentrations.
im concerned on how to keep the test accurate with the Jaz spray since the MDHJ is hopefully being converted into MeJA, it should have effects on plants surrounding it, making the exogenous supply of jasomonic acids slightly randomized unless im mistaken.

 

[spurr]

@ All,

After communicating with dizzlekush about NutriStim Triacontanol, I think making 100 mL (1/10th of a liter) stock solution may be best. NutriStim claims it's not good to store dilute aqueous solution TRIA, apparently even as a aqueous stock solution.

The math to make 100 mL worth of stock solution for 100 ppm TRIA follows. It would be easiest to measure the needed NutrtiStim TRIA by weight and not volume [1].

(specific gravity isn't used here because the quantity of TRIA is reported on label as 2.5% by w/v, not w/w)

• (0.4)0.025 = 0.01
• 1/100 = 0.0001
• (0.0001)1,000,000 = 100 ppm TRIA

[1] If we need 0.4 mL NutriStim TRIA per 100 mL to make 100 ppm stock solution, it would be easiest to convert the volume to weight and weigh out the needed amount of TRIA. I am unsure of the specific gravity (here that means g/mL) for NutriStim TRIA, but I'm sure dizzlekush could tell us.

Say for example the specific gravity (SP or Sp. g.) of NutriStim TRIA is 1 g/mL, that is, 1 gram of TRIA is the same quantity as 1 mL of TRIA. If we needed 0.4 mL of TRIA for 100 mL water to make 100 ppm stock solution, we need 0.4 gram TRIA because (1 g/mL)*(0.4 mL) = 0.4 gram.

BTW, I edited my previous post on this page for using NutriStim TRIA (here) because I didn't realise it's fully miscible in water. And I now think trying to normalize the different forms of TRIA (ex., C30OH and C30H60) isn't needed, wise or effective. The good news is it's easier to make stock solution now, as one would use 4 mL per 1,000 mL water instead of 4.2 mL.


@ Dizzlekush,

Thanks for posting those studies.


@ Dave,

Did you try the SuperGrow TRIA and yucca?

 

[epicseeds]

eager to see your results dizzlekush.

 

[Avinash.miles]

super interesting, thanks for the trials

 

[dizzlekush]

Taking Triacontanol to the Next Level

Taking Triacontanol to the Next Level

After doing a bit more research on Triacontanol formulations i ran across some information of interest. Studies have show that, for some unknown reason, when TRIA is co-applied with cations with a valence charge or +2 or greater, the yield increasing abilities of TRIA increase greatly, sometimes by 3 fold. Unfortunately for me and some others, this calls for a reformulation.

The salt that has been tested with TRIA that shows the most benefits is Calcium Chloride. Out of all the cations, Calcium (+2) and Lanthanum (+3) had the most synergy with TRIA, Ca (and Mg) being the least phytotoxic out of all tested. Out of the Calcium salts, CaCl2 is the most tested salt, helps keep the solution at a pH >7.0 (where TRIA is effective), and sterilizes the working solution. when CaCl was added to the TRIA solution, yield enhancement is often tripled. It has also been shown that these cations cannot be chelated if cation-TRIA synergy is desired, which requires polysorbates (such as Tween 20) and some other non-ionic surfactants to not be used in the formulation, as some non-ionic surfactants will chelate the cations. Instead the formulation requires a polar organic solvent such as alcohols, glycols, ketones, dipolar aprotic solvents etc. to emulsify the solution (acetone seems to be the #1 choice). The above type of formulation with TRIA being co-applied with a cation with a valence of +2 or greater and the use of an organic polar solvent (and often one or more of cytokinins, gibberellins and NAA) has shown to have greater improvements in growth over TRIA formulations where a non-ionic surfactant has been used. furthermore addition of any of the polysorbates have shown to have either negative or no effects on TRIA applications.

while this is somewhat disappointing, research also shows that applying these cations with a valence of +2 or greater to the soil in much greater quantities (in comparison to foliage application) before TRIA application has a similar effect to foliar co-applications of the cations with TRIA. so a feed heavy in Ca+ (and most likely Mg, Mn, and Zn) a day or 2 before a TRIA application will be beneficial if non-chelated Ca cannot be added to spray solution.

TRIA can be co-applied with auxins (aside from IAA, and not when combined with Ca+ as Ca inhibits auxin activity), brassinosteroids, cytokinins, or gibberellins. Oddly enough IAA has shown to have inhibitive effects on TRIA, while other auxins (specifically synthetic ones) have shown no such relationship. when i learn more of the mechanics behind this i will post it. Since Vitazyme is a formulation with both Triacontanol and IAA in it, i would not suggest using that product for optimum results. i personally do not suggest co-application with auxins or gibberellins for most marijuana growing situations. Brassinosteroids seem to have the least synergy with TRIA out of all phytohormones tested, so i suggest co-appling TRIA with BAP or Ascophyllum nodosum extract and separately applying Brassinosteroids in conjunction with a non ionic surfactant.

U.S. Patent # 4470840

During the course of research leading to the present invention, it has been discovered, surprisingly, that auxins and other plant growth substances alter the effects of 1-triacontanol. More specifically, the naturally-occurring auxin, indole-3-acetic acid (IAA) has been found to counteract any growth-promoting effect of 1-triacontanol. Auxins and 1-triacontanol are normally considered plant growth stimulating agents, and the investigation into the inhibitory interaction between the two substances led to the discovery that metal ions having a positive valence of +2 or more not only reverse the inhibition, but have an unexpected synergistic effect on the growth-stimulating effect of 1-triacontanol. Furthermore, this effect occurs in the presence of free metal ions which are not complexed or chelated. For example, the addition of surfactants such as Tweens, which effectively complex the metal ions, show either a decrease in plant growth when combined with 1-triacontanol formulations containing metal ions or show no effect at all. This same effect may be observed using the formulations disclosed in the U.S. Pat. No. 4,169,716 by Ashmead which teaches that 1-triacontanol may show a synergistic effect when combined with certain metal proteinates and a variety of other plant growth substances....
While the metal ions of the Hofmeister series having a valence of +2 or more are known to effect auxin binding and are very effective in producing a synergistic effect when combined with 1-triacontanol using the methods of the present invention, other metal ions such as zinc, lead, cadmium, etc. are effective and in some cases superior to the Hofmeister series metal ions. Since these other metal ions are useful and are not known to affect auxin binding, the synergistic effect observed in combination with 1-triacontanol may not be related to increase auxin binding. Furthermore, since the pH of the formulations of the present invention must be maintained over 7, auxin binding would necessarily be inhibited rather than promoted (see Plant Physiol., 59: 357 1977)). Therefore, no explanation for the surprising synergistic effect of metal ions having a valence of +2 or more in the 1-triacontanol formulations is apparent.
Since surfactant additives or other additives which effectively complex the metal ions of the present invention may not be used in carrying out the best mode of the invention, research by the present inventor has led to the discovery that the incorporation of a polar organic solvent must be used. The polar organic solvent should be one in which 1-triacontanol is soluble to some extent, and also one that shows a solubility in water. Such solvents are disclosed in U.S. Ser. No. 47,696, filed June 12, 1979, and U.S. Ser. No. 146,005, filed May 2, 1980, both by the present inventor. The polar solvents of the present invention include, but are in no way limited to, water soluble ketones, alcohols, ethers, acids, amines, and dipolar aprotic solvents (such as dimethyl formamide, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), and hexamethyl phosphoramide), and the like.

http://www.patents.com/us-4470840.html


other patents that cover everything i've explained:

U.S. Patent #4333758
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4333758.html

U.S. Patent #4230485
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4230485/fulltext.html

U.S. Patent #4455162
http://www.patents.com/us-4455162.html

U.S. Patent #4169716
http://www.patents.com/us-4169716.html

U.S. Patent #4411685
http://www.patents.com/us-4411685.html

In an optimal Triacontanol stock solution you want:
de-ionized or distilled water (DDW or RODI is best)
Triacontanol
Acetone
Calcium Chloride/Calcium Nitrate
Potassium Hydroxide to adjust pH as needed to at least 8.0 (preferably not above 10.0)
optionally a non ionic surfactant that will not chelate/complex the calcium.
Pure Methanol can be used as a superior substitute of the water/acetone combination if using on C3 or CAM plants (non C4 plants). If methanol is used, use Calcium Nitrate instead of Calcium Chloride.

Have other PGRs in a separate stock solution and tank mix as desired

 

[shirami]

Very interesting read. Thanks.
Have you heard of Calcium25? It is said to contain Triacontanol.

 

[netprophet]

Seeing that timing is critical when applying PGR's which of the mentioned PGR's would you guys recommend for mid-flower?
on that note, I think it would help for setting up control tests to know when to apply each PGR as well as dosage rates etc. It seems it would be easy to spray one plant and avoid another to gather data.

 

[blueberrydrumz]

Seeing that timing is critical when applying PGR's which of the mentioned PGR's would you guys recommend for mid-flower?
on that note, I think it would help for setting up control tests to know when to apply each PGR as well as dosage rates etc. It seems it would be easy to spray one plant and avoid another to gather data.

i tryed BAP - 300ppm around end of 4th week of flowering on 9week strain... the 2 plants i sprayed had id say double the size nugs as the rest.. might have been fluke but dont think so... peace

 

[dizzlekush]

Very interesting read. Thanks.
Have you heard of Calcium25? It is said to contain Triacontanol.

I had heard before that calcium 25 contained triacontanol in it but i was sceptical. seems you are right though. there's an article in Popular Science that mentions Calcium25 having triacontanol as an active ingredient.
http://books.google.com/books?id=R4...Q#v=onepage&q=calcium 25 triacontanol&f=false

 

[shirami]

I had heard before that calcium 25 contained triacontanol in it but i was sceptical. seems you are right though. there's an article in Popular Science that mentions Calcium25 having triacontanol as an active ingredient.
http://books.google.com/books?id=R4...Q#v=onepage&q=calcium 25 triacontanol&f=false

Here's the patent: http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/4411685.html

 

[dizzlekush]

Here's the patent: http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/4411685.html

yes ive already posted this patent just several posts back. apparently you missed it. i do not see anywhere where it says this patent is for Calcium 25. how did you come to this conclusion? ive read at last 4 other patents that could be describing Calcium 25 as well. Plus the use of NAA in the patent disclosed would make me shy away from Calcium 25 if indeed this is the patent for the product. i would not apply NAA to the foliage of marijuana at any stage of growth past the first week of root development.

 

[shirami]

After doing a bit more research on Triacontanol formulations i ran across some information of interest. Studies have show that, for some unknown reason, when TRIA is co-applied with cations with a valence charge or +2 or greater, the yield increasing abilities of TRIA increase greatly, sometimes by 3 fold. Unfortunately for me and some others, this calls for a reformulation.

The salt that has been tested with TRIA that shows the most benefits is Calcium Chloride. Out of all the cations, Calcium (+2) and Lanthanum (+3) had the most synergy with TRIA, Ca (and Mg) being the least phytotoxic out of all tested. Out of the Calcium salts, CaCl2 is the most tested salt, helps keep the solution at a pH >7.0 (where TRIA is effective), and sterilizes the working solution. when CaCl was added to the TRIA solution, yield enhancement is often tripled. It has also been shown that these cations cannot be chelated if cation-TRIA synergy is desired, which requires polysorbates (such as Tween 20) and some other non-ionic surfactants to not be used in the formulation, as some non-ionic surfactants will chelate the cations. Instead the formulation requires a polar organic solvent such as alcohols, glycols, ketones, dipolar aprotic solvents etc. to emulsify the solution (acetone seems to be the #1 choice). The above type of formulation with TRIA being co-applied with a cation with a valence of +2 or greater and the use of an organic polar solvent (and often one or more of cytokinins, gibberellins and NAA) has shown to have greater improvements in growth over TRIA formulations where a non-ionic surfactant has been used. furthermore addition of any of the polysorbates have shown to have either negative or no effects on TRIA applications.

while this is somewhat disappointing, research also shows that applying these cations with a valence of +2 or greater to the soil in much greater quantities (in comparison to foliage application) before TRIA application has a similar effect to foliar co-applications of the cations with TRIA. so a feed heavy in Ca+ (and most likely Mg, Mn, and Zn) a day or 2 before a TRIA application will be beneficial if non-chelated Ca cannot be added to spray solution.

TRIA can be co-applied with auxins (aside from IAA, and not when combined with Ca+ as Ca inhibits auxin activity), brassinosteroids, cytokinins, or gibberellins. Oddly enough IAA has shown to have inhibitive effects on TRIA, while other auxins (specifically synthetic ones) have shown no such relationship. when i learn more of the mechanics behind this i will post it. Since Vitazyme is a formulation with both Triacontanol and IAA in it, i would not suggest using that product for optimum results. i personally do not suggest co-application with auxins or gibberellins for most marijuana growing situations. Brassinosteroids seem to have the least synergy with TRIA out of all phytohormones tested, so i suggest co-appling TRIA with BAP or Ascophyllum nodosum extract and separately applying Brassinosteroids in conjunction with a non ionic surfactant.

U.S. Patent # 4470840
http://www.patents.com/us-4470840.html


other patents that cover everything i've explained:

U.S. Patent #4333758
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4333758.html

U.S. Patent #4230485
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4230485/fulltext.html

U.S. Patent #4455162
http://www.patents.com/us-4455162.html

U.S. Patent #4169716
http://www.patents.com/us-4169716.html

U.S. Patent #4411685
http://www.patents.com/us-4411685.html

So in an optimal Triacontanol stock solution you want:
de-ionized or distilled water (DDW or RODI is best)
Triacontanol
Acetone
Calcium Chloride
Potassium Benzoate*[might not be needed depending on final concentrations of Acetone and Chloride in stock solution and desired TRIA dosage.]
Potassium Hydroxide to adjust pH as needed to at least 8.0 (preferably not above 10.0)

have other PGRs in a separate stock solution and tank mix as desired

I'm no chemist but a quick search shows:
KOH + CaCl2-->KCl +Ca(OH)2

Which will precipitate the Calcium Carbonate from the solution.

 

[dizzlekush]

I'm no chemist but a quick search shows:
KOH + CaCl2-->KCl +Ca(OH)2

Which will precipitate the Calcium Carbonate from the solution.

im no chemist either but this reaction does not occur if the salts are separately dissolved into water. i copied the uses of CaCl and KOH for Ca source and final pHing directly from multiple patents (the ones i provided). the only thing i added was potassium benzoate, which i would remove the formulation now that ive revisited the idea.

 

[shirami]

yes ive already posted this patent just several posts back. apparently you missed it. i do not see anywhere where it says this patent is for Calcium 25. how did you come to this conclusion? ive read at last 4 other patents that could be describing Calcium 25 as well. Plus the use of NAA in the patent disclosed would make me shy away from Calcium 25 if indeed this is the patent for the product. i would not apply NAA to the foliage of marijuana at any stage of growth past the first week of root development.

Ah, yeh I did miss that one.

The link you provided to the Popular Science article shows the name of the inventor which is the same as the one in the patent.

 

[dizzlekush]

Ah, yeh I did miss that one.

The link you provided to the Popular Science article shows the name of the inventor which is the same as the one in the patent.

Ah, good eye. to split hairs, the patent is for the product "Agro-Lizer" by the Biochemical Research Corporation (now the Biochemical Marketing Corporation). But it is the same inventor (and in the same town), who has made "Calcium 25" with Bio-Guard Agronomics.

Other Patents (same one pretty much) by the same inventor.
U.S. Patent # 4470840
http://www.patents.com/us-4470840.html

U.S. Patent #4333758
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4333758.html

U.S. Patent #4455162
http://www.patents.com/us-4455162.html

 

[Killroy]

Sorry if this has been answered before, but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Does anybody know how to properly use triffid as a foliar feed? I have a feeling the manufacturer's suggested dosage is on the high side.

Edit: Shit, sorry for the necropost. I didn't realize this thread was long dead. I've been gone too long.

 

[Avinash.miles]

anyone heard of humboldt avalanche? heard it was "big in cali"
it was described to me as "gravity without PGRS"

just curious... anyone?

 

[northerngrafta]

dunno about it not having pgr's but its called Mendocino Avalanche!

 

[EclipseFour20]

I use Avalanche...2.5ml/gallon. Some introduce it late (a few week before harvest), but I start about 30 days before harvest (depending on maturity of the flower formation). Since Avalanche has vitamins & hormones...I do not use it in conjunction with Hormex, as both contain similar/same vitamins and hormones.

BTW, I grow in my custom grow mix--so the rate and timing for those in hydro is completely different...so say my hydro buddies.

Cheers!

 

[Joshua Ntr]

Ant thing contain growth regulators should be used at a minimum. Mutation of viruses are likely the reason for sudden plant death.