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Phosphorus Poison

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Here's one about microbe population responses to fertilizers in wheat fields. Kind of off topic, but I thought you might find something in it worthwhile MM.

Interesting read.

It appears the server or...? where I found a list of citations is temporarily down. I'll try later.

I sppose something of great interest is to determine how many different ways commercial phosphorus or phosphate fertilizers are processed and if one is safer than the other. This subject was brought up to me off forum by Spurr this morning. I'll try to source some information on this.

In my trials and errors as a grower, I came to the realization that high amounts of P were not necessary for good flower/fruit production but I was growing in soil. According to Spurr the amounts used in hydro are now vastly reduced. I hope this spreads because I am aware that quite a number of growers still cling to the concept that pumping the P in flower is the way to higher yields. I think this is particularly prevalent in growers using virtual hydroponics e.g. soiless media and soluble nutrients.

Grape old farmer, I believe you are correct that a P molecule is a P molecule on its own but what does it carry with it. Perhaps it is like the various products made from the opiate molecule, codiene, morphine, heroin, etc., each having a slightly different molecular bond. If a plant is deriving its P from an organic source like degraded plant matter or fish hydrolysate or even small amounts of soft rock phosphate or bone meal the P is made available through biological means (microbial or root acid excretions). In this way the uptake is natural and actively controlled. With chemical P treated with acid to make it available, I believe uptake is more passive.

[BTW when I used soft rock phosphate in soil an initial application was good for years. This is making me rethink SRP in tea]
 

Yes4Prop215

Active member
Veteran
im using fox farm nutes which has rock phosphate...so you're saying this is bad?

ive been thinking about switching to PBP organic bloom...been using earthjuice alot lately too..
 

Hydro-Soil

Active member
Veteran
I'll stick with Maxibloom.

Never aggressively fed, tapered off near the end of flower then plain water for 2-3 weeks.... depending on how fast the particular strain/pheno eats.

Again, cannabis is SUPERB at saving nutes for a rainy day.... it takes a bit for them to use up all the stored reserves they've socked away during flower. This is the main reason I don't go 'organic' as it's difficult to get a 'clean' soil for starving the plant.

Stay Safe! :blowbubbles:

p.s. American tobacco is E.V.I.L. with a capital BLEAH!
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I found this very entertaining essay which is again mostly about cigarrettes but here are some excerpts;

"Noakes hypothesized that the high polonium content of American-grown tobacco could be due to the extensive
use of Florida phosphate fertilizer, which has a naturally high level of uranium and therefore high levels of its daughter isotopes, including lead-210 and polonium-210."

This seems to indicate that the high polonium is not restricted to apitates. Hopefully we'll get at a study shortly which I hope will be more revealing on the varieties of commercial chemical phosphates.


He pointed to the increasingly widespread
usage of artificial high-phosphate fertilizers in developing countries. In the United States, fertilizer manufacturing had begun in earnest with the establishment of the Tennessee
Valley Authority in the 1930s, and phosphate fertilizers gained further popularity through the “Big Agriculture” movement of the postwar era.
 

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Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
im using fox farm nutes which has rock phosphate...so you're saying this is bad?

ive been thinking about switching to PBP organic bloom...been using earthjuice alot lately too..

Your best bet is to ask for the analysis (heavy metals, etc)
 

Avinash.miles

Caregiver Extraordinaire
Moderator
ICMag Donor
Veteran
BTW
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/

this is the best place i can find for looking into metal contents.

Im using maxibloom right now, and it is just ok....
Arsenic (As) -
Cadmium (Cd) -
Cobalt (Co) 5
Copper (Cu) -
Lead (Pb) 1.9
Mercury (Hg) 0.12
Molybdenum (Mo) 11.2
Nickel (Ni) 3.9
Selenium (Se) 12.7

that look safe to you?
pretty much every nute is on that site, very easy to use
great thread, im interested, don wan smoke poison!!!!! thanks all, i think this is one of the most important issues w ganja growers,
lets do it better!! lets make it safer!!!! Grow clean, flush well, smoke smooth

best fertilizer? your shadow
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
The more I look into this, the more I believe that all chemical phosphates (phosphorus) is derived from a cheap acid treatment of rock phosphate and is subject to levels of radiation. Even soft rock phosphate is often a byproduct of this industry. I'm going to have a close look at my use of soft rock phosphate in compost tea. I still think that naturally mined soft rock phosphate can be used safely mixed into soil in minimal amounts meant to last for years.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/mining/pdfs/phosphate.pdf

[apparently some ore for some purposes has polonium 210 removed ~MM]

Phosphate Ore BeneficiationThe primary scrubbers remove particulates and the secondary scrubber removes polonium 210, a radionuclide

[but not for fertilizers? ~MM]

Phosphoric Acid
About 95 percent of the commercial grade wet-process phosphoric acid is used to produce fertilizers and animal feed. A small portion of the phosphate acid is used as a feedstock in chemical processing operations. Typically, the fertilizer and feed plants are co-located with the phosphoric acid facilities. There are two processes for producing phosphoric acid: (1) the wet process, and (2) the furnace process. Wet-process acid, produced directly from phosphoric ores, is characterized by relatively high production volume, low cost, and low purity. It is used primarily in fertilizers.


A good overview {thanks Spurr}
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/dc6288.html

Uranium in rock phosphate globally
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mragheb/w...ring/Uranium Resources in Phosphate Rocks.pdf

South African take; Igneous Vs Sedimentary rock phosphate
http://www.fssa.org.za/pebble.asp?relid=303

Look at this one advertised analysis of soft rock phosphate from Australia with just under 22,000 ppm flouride! I believe this means it has to have radiation(?)
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/downlo...ets/Dry Mineral Fertilisers/NTS Soft Rock.pdf
 
Last edited:

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
BTW
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/

this is the best place i can find for looking into metal contents.

Im using maxibloom right now, and it is just ok....
Arsenic (As) -
Cadmium (Cd) -
Cobalt (Co) 5
Copper (Cu) -
Lead (Pb) 1.9
Mercury (Hg) 0.12
Molybdenum (Mo) 11.2
Nickel (Ni) 3.9
Selenium (Se) 12.7

that look safe to you?
pretty much every nute is on that site, very easy to use
great thread, im interested, don wan smoke poison!!!!! thanks all, i think this is one of the most important issues w ganja growers,
lets do it better!! lets make it safer!!!! Grow clean, flush well, smoke smooth

best fertilizer? your shadow

What are the units of measure? Depends also on what they tested for.
 
T

the med man

cannabius culture did an dawesome article on radioactive tobacco and fertilizer.

i hate to break it down like this but even organic nutes like manure bone meal etc all have a degree of radioactivity,

cannabis needs 1/4 the p as it does calcium. on par with how much sulphur it needs. even before an released the p myth id been preaching how canna needs virtuall y no p.

the best thing to do is use a canna specific recipe, with low p, and avoid it all either organic or non organic.

ancient sea beds are packed with lime, cal-mag, nitogen and potassium, not p, mm
 

Herborizer

Active member
Veteran
I believe Canna Nutes rated the lowest in tests for heavy metals, even against organic nutes in the bottle. By many peoples standards, Canna is the closest to organic of any chemical nute on the shelves. I believe that canna claims that their nutes work with beneficial bacteria even, where most chem nutes kill them off.

Thoughts?
 
Y

YosemiteSam

one to ponder

one to ponder

untitled (1 of 1)-3.jpg

The medium is Black Gold Just Coir with a few handfuls of ewc chunked in.

They were fed chem nutes (individual raw salts). No attempt made to dechlorinate the water and fertigations were H2O2 supplemented (ORP reading around 175 at time of fert).

Obviously there is some live microbiology in there.

The only thing I can think of is that I never ran P above 30 ppm...all from potassium phosphate.

Not something I see often...but it ain't the first time either.

edit...no fungicides necessary or used for the last year.

Not arguing if it is as good or safe as true organic...I don't believe it is. Just pointing out that it is not always as extreme as us chem growers are made out to be.

Kinda wanting to take the leap to no til in big pots...just trying to get my head wrapped around the original soil mix so I can at least come close to matching yields. I have also found pumping up the P does nothing for my yield...24 or 100 has been about the same for me.
 

ExEcutioner

Member
Sheez, after getting a load of organics a few years back, (esp rock dust). and checking the heavy metals site mentioned earlier by Avanish, I realized i just introduced arsenic and lead into the garden for the first time and other heavy metals. I thought id have that crap in my cheaper stuff, it was not present ...according to the site. It seems you cant find everything that makes up the nutes you might be interested in.

Never had a fungus problem with "regular" phos, just the opposite actually, and the shrooms still grow few days after watering....

Gotta give the plant credit for its properties, anti cancerous properties etc
 

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