Phosphite: What companies aren't telling you

[spurr]

Hey bro,

This is doubly true if we add citric acid to assit in the mineralization of Phi from OM like SRF, and to assist in chelation of mineralized Pi.

FWIW, in that quote of mine you used above, I miss-wrote Phi when I meant Pi. I corrected the typo in my original post already.

LOL, that was my next question. I have been reading VG´s thread on Citric acid. I have been using Apple Cider to adjust my water PH. Here in Germany we sit on top of a Lime mountain. I have good results with the Cider but if I could improve P uptake with the citric acid then I think it is time to switch.

Would the powdered type from the Bio Markt work?

Yes, if it's pure citric acid. That is what I use, powdered citric acid from a wine/beer homebrew shop.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i just looked it up and there are two types

C6H8O7 (anhydrous)
C6H8O7. H2O (monohydrate)

cant see how there would be any difference except that the anhydrous would be more 'concentrated'

i dont think you would regret using the citric acid von. i was using it to adjust my water pH which is about 9, and i always suspected it was having good side effects on my grow. its been cool slowly finding out about all the other great benefits citric acid had, especially as i use rock phosphate as well.

VG

 

[spurr]

i just looked it up and there are two types

C6H8O7 (anhydrous)
C6H8O7. H2O (monohydrate)

cant see how there would be any difference except that the anhydrous would be more 'concentrated'

Basically the main difference is H20. The anhydrous version has no water; it's best to buy the monohydrate version. The reason is ambient room humidity will often make anhydrous substances hard as a rock once they are exposed to air (they will absorb the humidity). Using granular (or fine powder) monohydrate is the better choice of the two because it 'easier' to work with.

i dont think you would regret using the citric acid von. i was using it to adjust my water pH which is about 9, and i always suspected it was having good side effects on my grow. its been cool slowly finding out about all the other great benefits citric acid had, especially as i use rock phosphate as well.

VG

I agree 100%. FWIW, I have been trying to find studies looking at effects of exogenous application of citric acid upon the Krebs cycle of plants. So far, I have not found anything showing exogenous application of citric acid to rhizosphere helps the Krebs cycle, even though I thought I had read something on that topic in the past. However, I do believe foliar application of citric acid (I use it to lower pH of foliar sprays to 6-6.5 pH) might benefit the Krebs cycle...but that's only my unproven guess. I need to devote more time to looking into exogenous application of citric acid effects upon Krebs cycle.

 

[Yankee Grower]

It does follow my opinion of ALL bottled products sold on the market today. Useless.

I'm pretty hardcore when it comes to organics however I do not agree with that statement. I think that almost all bottled products are useless or at the very least not necessary when following a solid organic program. Probably not necessary at all however I think do add some value or provide benefits.

I look at it this way...while nature creates gemstone crystals it takes a skilled hand to bring out their true brilliance and potential on the lapidary wheel...if that makes any sense.

 

[hiker]

Here is some knowledge from someone who uses phosphites religiously at their job for most of the year. Phosphites will absolutly help your plants fight stress and disease. It is a great preventer of root born diseases, especially pythium. However, this being said, it has no nutritional value in the phosphorus department, NONE WHATSOEVER, no one has to believe that, but it it the truth, I know, for many years I have used this product to help ensure my job during many stressful summer nights. So remember PHOSPHITES, GREAT FOR YOUR PLANTS HEALTH, NO USE WHATSOEVER AS A FERTILIZER, also a LITTLE PHOSPHITES GOES A LONG WAY, don't overdose

 

[zenoonez]

Here is some knowledge from someone who uses phosphites religiously at their job for most of the year. Phosphites will absolutly help your plants fight stress and disease. It is a great preventer of root born diseases, especially pythium. However, this being said, it has no nutritional value in the phosphorus department, NONE WHATSOEVER, no one has to believe that, but it it the truth, I know, for many years I have used this product to help ensure my job during many stressful summer nights. So remember PHOSPHITES, GREAT FOR YOUR PLANTS HEALTH, NO USE WHATSOEVER AS A FERTILIZER, also a LITTLE PHOSPHITES GOES A LONG WAY, don't overdose

So I assume you use it as a foliar?

 

[grapeman]

So I assume you use it as a foliar?

Always.

 

[hiker]

Zenoonez, yes, always as a foliar, and once again, watch the dosage.

 

[spurr]

Here is some knowledge from someone who uses phosphites religiously at their job for most of the year. Phosphites will absolutly help your plants fight stress...

Phi is not a great SAR inducer, the main reason is it is not effective for a large variation of species. Have you tested it on cannabis?

It is a great preventer of root born diseases, especially pythium.

Yea for sure, it's also good for some fungi pathogens found in the phyllosphere. The main benefit from Phi is it's action as a systemic fungicide and/or fungistat.

However, this being said, it has no nutritional value in the phosphorus department, NONE WHATSOEVER, no one has to believe that, but it it the truth, I know, for many years I have used this product to help ensure my job during many stressful summer nights.

That's not quite true, Phi does provide P, but only after the slow process of bacterial oxidization of Phi into Pi (before being taken into plant tissues). Also, many growers use Phi in fertigation water, and that application is suggested (along with foliar as the primary application method) by NutriPhite. When Phi is used in fertigation water in soil with high pH, Phi can be oxidized into Pi more quickly (vs. foliar application) due to the high pH (and bacterial enzyme oxidation in rhizosphere and soil solution).

Also, according the PhD plant physiologist at NutriPhite, foliar application of Phi that is taken into plant tissue as Phi, can cause the plant produce certain exudates in the rhizosphere that can increase uptake of P (either as Pi or DOP) from the rhizosphere. That said, if Phi is taken into plant tissue it stays as Phi because there is no (known) plant enzyme that can oxidize Phi into Pi (proven via year long study of radioactively labeled Phi in plant tissue).

So remember PHOSPHITES, GREAT FOR YOUR PLANTS HEALTH, NO USE WHATSOEVER AS A FERTILIZER, also a LITTLE PHOSPHITES GOES A LONG WAY, don't overdose

I for one would not use Phi for a SAR inducer, or as a fungicide/fungistat, mainly because I want beneficial fungi in the rhizosphere and phyllosphere; and use of Phi will hinder (to a great extent) many beneficial fungi as well as many harmful fungi.

There are better options for SAR inducers such as SA and MeJA, those that do not hinder beneficial fungi and those that have a strong effect upon cannabis.

I agree there is zero reason to try and provide P via Phi, that's a fools errand when we can simply supply P via Pi (to rhizosphere and phyllosphere).

A major issue with using Phi as a SAR inducer, is like you mention, a little goes a long way. It's easy to over-apply Phi, especially because it's systemic in plant tissue, and over-application means phyotoxicity and damaged plants. That issue of build-up of continually applied Phi is more of a concern with perennials than annuals like cannabis (e.g., Phi is generally not applied for a long period of time)

 

[hiker]

Spurr, no I have not tried on cannabis and not really sure if you need to. As for a SARs inducer, that is not why I use phosphites, I use other products for that. I use a product that I also use at work that I think works quite nicely, if you are interested, pm me and I''ll tell you about it. By the way, thanks for the heads up on the info on mycorrhiza, I have been using a product that provides that at work for many years also, one of the original firm believers in this product, and I know other systemics fungicides are harmful, but never thought of phosphites as hindering the process. I'm going to have to look into this, but truthfully, at work I don't really have that option. Phosphites are to much a part of my agronomic arsenal there. Thanks again, I love this thread, I feel useful.

 

[spurr]

Yep .... I think it's more complex from a molecular level than this thread makes it seem.

Phosphorous acid Chemical Properties,Usage,Production
Air & Water Reactions
Deliquescent. Absorbs oxygen from the air very readily to form phosphoric acid [Hawley].

Deliquescent means highly hydroscopic - if exposed to air it absorbs moisture until it becomes liquid state.

More reading http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB6700409.htm

That is in terms of phosphorus acid, which is not used by people who grow plants, nor sold by compies such as NutriPhite, Pure Flowers, Vitalink, et al.; phosphites are used. Phosphites (Phi) are formed using phosphorous acid (H3PO3) that is neutralized to form salts and becomes phosphonate ions (H2PO3), also called phosphite.

In your link above, it's phosphorous acid (H3PO3) that is being discussed, not phosphonate ions (H2PO3), aka phosphites. So it has nothign to due to use of Phi, nor conversion of Phi into Pi.

Here is why phosphorous acid is not used for growing plants, nor sold for use on plants:

General Description

A white or yellow crystalline solid (melting point 70.1 deg C) or a solution of the solid. Density 1.651 g /cm3 . Contact may severely irritate skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. Toxic by ingestion, inhalation and skin absorption.

Health Hazard:

TOXIC; inhalation, ingestion or skin contact with material may cause severe injury or death. Contact with molten substance may cause severe burns to skin and eyes. Avoid any skin contact. Effects of contact or inhalation may be delayed. Fire may produce irritating, corrosive and/or toxic gases. Runoff from fire control or dilution water may be corrosive and/or toxic and cause pollution.

 

[spurr]

As far as I'm aware Phosphorous acid (phosphonic acid) converts almost entirly to phosphoric acid when added to water (it reacts).

In the case of phosphorus acid, yes, but not in the case of what is used by growers: [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]phosphonate[/FONT] ions (i.e. Phi). See what I wrote above about the dangers of phosphorous acid, and why it's not sold by plant product companies, nor used by any growers.

If you were discussing Phi (and not phosphorus acid), then I would point out when foliar spraying Phi or media drenching with Phi (in both instances Phi is mixed with water), we would be providing Pi; and that isn't so.

Water does not oxidize (or otherwise convert) Phi into Pi. However, if the water pH is very high, then that might have an effect of increasing conversion of Phi into Pi. But the pH would need to be > 8, just like the pH of soil/soilless media, which is really the pH of the "soil solution" (i.e. the thin layer of water surround media particles).

So if you add 100grams of phosphorous acid to water you have a product containing primarily phosphoric acid + water +Phi + reagents.

Please do not try this, phosphorous acid is very dangerous and should not be used outside of a lab.

 

[spurr]

Sorry my friend you're wrong. Many fertilizers contain phosphorous acid as a source of P (i.e. when added to water it becomes phosphoric acid which is also used in fertilizers as phosphoric acid - ultimately you are looking for elemental P and there are various ways of achieving this). I have formulated many fertilizers and I know as I use phosphorous acid regularly in fertilizer production.

You are being disingenuous, or ignorant, or both. I wrote no fertilizers use phosphorous acid and that's true, AFAIK. Go ahead and try to find a fertilizer company selling phosphorous acid as P source in fertilizer. I sit here and wait.

I checked the papers that were linked e.g. Phosphorous Acid and Phosphoric Acid: When all P Sources are not Equal. They claim Phosphorous acid does not get converted into phosphate, which is the primary source of P for plants (Ouimette and Coffey, 1989b). Interesting then that one of the most definitive guides on chemicals contradicts this.

It does not disagree with that. Chemistry is not my strong suite, and I will ask Mr.Fista to comment and check my claims. Phosphorus acid is converted into phosphoric acid in water, but it's important to note phosphoric acid and phosphates are not the same thing; thus the claim in the paper I posted is correct, you seem to be simply confused:

"A phosphate, an inorganic chemical, is a salt of phosphoric acid...In organic chemistry, a phosphate, or organophosphate, is an ester of phosphoric acid."

"Phosphate is the name of the ion PO4[3-]. Phosphorous acid, on the other hand, is the name of the triprotic acid H3PO3. This is a combination of 3 H+ ions and one phosphite (PO3[3-]) ion."
​

I'm not disagreeing entirely with what is being said here - what I am simply saying is that from a molecular level where plant physiology and hydroponics is concerned this thread oversimplifies things greatly.

No. You simply misunderstand things...

Also, see what I wrote about how growing in soil or soiless media would have the same effect as hydro, i.e. because in both instances there is water (e.g. soil solution).

Plants require elemental P. An atom of P is an atom of P no matter where it is derived from. Phosphoric Acid H3PO4 81%w/w (orthophosphoric acid) usually sold in 75-85%w/w liquids is 25.6% elemental P. Phosphorous Acid (phosphonic acid) H3PO3 is 37.1% elemental P.

Plants do not require elemental P; they can do fine with Dissolved Organic Phosphorus.

I just hope your other information is more accurate than to come out with a comment such as phosphorous acid is not used for plants. Nonsense - you have no idea what you are talking about when you say things like this. "Please do not try this, phosphorous acid is very dangerous and should not be used outside of a lab." Try learning something before you come out with damned stupid comments like this.

You are in for a rude awakening when I respond to your next post, and I would like an apology for you rudeness, if not also for your ignorance.

Also, suggesting people use phosphorus acid, which is known to be toxic, is not only a major fail, but very careless of you. I like how you try to cherry pick info from your reference, but ignore the info I cite from your reference

 

[spurr]

Oh here's a couple of brands I can name that you may be aware of that contain Phosphorous acid (which in fact is phosphoric acid because it has reacted with water and oxygen). House and Garden, Atami.

LOL, I read every single product made by House and Garden, and not a single one lists phosphorous acid, they all list phosphoric acid. And don't try to claim they are fertilizers providing phosphorous acid, because they are not, even if they used phosphorous acid to mix with water and make phosphoric acid, that in no way refutes my claim that fertilizer companies do not sell phosphorous acid.

I wonder how you can claim they use phosphorus acid, do you have a secret bat phone you can use to get their proprietary methods?

Did you know that PK 13-14 is made using among other things phosphoric acid.

They use P2O5 for their source of P, which is not phosphorous acid, it's phosphorus pentoxide (aka diphosphorus pentoxide). So what is your point?

"...P2O5 is an empirical formula, not the actual formula. The correct formula is P4O10 [phosphoric anhydride]."

Of course you can get to the same place using phosphorous acid because when reacted with water and oxygen you have phosphoric acid.

And yet, my point is still correct: fertilizer companies do not sell phosphorous acid, and growers do not use phosphorus acid. So why are you being such an ass?

Hey go figure and go study some chemistry beyond elementary high school chem. BTW, it is actually safer to work with phosphorous acid (a solid) then it is to work with phosphoric acid a liquid. Either way what you get is elemental P and this is what the plant requires.

Phosphorous acid is more dangerous to work with than phosphoric acid, but both are dangerous.

Did you forget this thread is about Phi, not "how can we make phosphoric acid"?

Nothing you have written lends on iota of rebuttal to that the FACT Phi is very poor source of P. And no growers are going to source phosphorus acid when they can use phosphoric acid as superphosphoric acid or concentrated superphosphoric acid in varous forms like DAP, MAP, etc.

Here's a good read for any of you that want to really understand phosphate fertilizers.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/dc6288.html

I find it funny you cite that reference, one I have read many times, and yet, nowhere does it discuss phosphorus acid.


OK, I'm done schooling you, and organic chem isn't even my strong suite (I think it's very boring). I will ask Mr.Fista to comment on our posts, he will be able to correct me, and you, if I need correction and if I didn't correct you well enough.

Fell free to post more rude comment, I won't be responding to you any longer.

 

[VerdantGreen]

mullray, if anyone is throwing a tantrum then it's you. spurr may be blunt sometimes but you are being plain abusive. please calm it down a bit and make your points in a polite manner

VG

 

[spurr]

Then someone comes out swinging without an iota of an idea and calls me names such as ignorant (lol) and I take a poke back with the science and then I am called to task.

That is a common misconception you just stated: calling someone ignorant is not the same as calling someone a name. Look up the definition of ignorant.

Also, when I wrote "Nothing you have written lends one iota of rebuttal to that the FACT Phi is very poor source of P.", it was not an insult to you, and it's a 100% correct statement. Nothing you have written does lend one iota of rebuttal to the fact Phi is a very poor source of P.

In both cases above, I did not insult you, yet to took it like I did. Either you don't know the definitions of those words, or you don't know their usage/context. Either way you are wrong and got all upset over nothing. You are the instigator here, and a gay bigot to boot (and no, I am not gay but I'm not a bigot like you seem to be).

You were "called to task" for being overtly rude, bigoted and overly-defensive; all of which are true about your posts.

All that aside, nothing you wrote rebuts the claims in this thread, which is about Phi; not phosphorous acid. For some reason you think phosphorous acid and it's conversion into phosphoric acid in water has something to due with Phi and it's conversion into Pi, and like I explained already, it does not. Also, many claims you made about phosphorous acid were wrong and you got mad when I showed how many of your claims were wrong.

You manged to find one company in South Korea that claims to make a fertilizer with phosphorous acid, but that company doesn't sell their product anywhere outside of South Korea I am aware of, which makes your citing of the company's claims kind of funny. You did however manage to find one US company that makes a product using phosphorous acid, JHBiotech, congrats on that (the link you provided is dead, try this PDF). I guess because you manged to find one company everything I wrote and everything dozens of scientists wrote about Phi is wrong...whoops, no it's not, because we are writing about Phi as a P source, not phosphorous acid as a P source (except in the paper titled "Phosphorous acid and phosphoric acid: when all P sources are not equal", which shows why phosphorus acid is not a good fertilizer choice for Pi vs phosphoric acid for Pi).

It's pretty simple: you made many wrong claims when you wrote about phosphorous acid, and you got mad at me for showing how your claims were wrong. Your biggest error was when you assumed phosphorous acid has something to due with Phi as a P source. The fact you think you proved me wrong makes me giggle.

Lastly, when I wrote phosphorus acid shouldn't be used by growers because it's dangerous, I was referring to the the pure form of phosphorous acid, which you were originally writing about, and you know that. Once it's mixed in to water (like in the product by JHBiotech) it's not dangerous like it is in it's pure form. So please, stop being so disingenuous, OK?

 

[grapeman]

Here is why phosphorous acid is not used for growing plants, nor sold for use on plants:

Oh come on. this is just flat wrong.

 

[grapeman]

You are being disingenuous, or ignorant, or both. I wrote no fertilizers use phosphorous acid and that's true, AFAIK. Go ahead and try to find a fertilizer company selling phosphorous acid as P source in fertilizer. I sit here and wait.

Phos acid (a 32% product or a food grade product at @51%, if memory serves on the exact percentages) is one of the most widely used P products in Ag today. Do you want me to post a few photos of the product arriving at local fertilizer outlets by rail car?

It is sold as a straight product for application in early spring or late in the season to help give fruit "tone", and it is used it pretty much all blends made to order (10-20-5) for example, if that's what you want to apply on your crop.

 

[spurr]

grapman,

Not only is the topic of phosphorous acid totally off topic to this thread, but you, like mullray, are ignoring the fact I was referring to pure phosphorus acid.

No need for you or mullray to respond, I am sure it would be more of the same off topic claims...

 

[MrFista]

Firstly - hehe - organic chemistry is not boring! How dare you spurr, the geek in me is deeply insulted. Organic chemistry is freaking awesome I got a hardon for ligase at the moment, more like biochem that though.

Second. I'm not re-reading the arguement. I doubt spurr has not done his homework, it is possible something is amiss however - as in science one department rarely talks to the other and connective or emergent properties of the same substance in new circumstances get missed frequently.

Phosphorous acid appears triprotic but is actually diprotic as when it has one proton left the pKa of the conjugate base is stronger than that of the acid and it does not react further.

From what I can see the phosphorous acid product will actually be a combination of several compounds with no actual phosphorous acid species in the solution. Why, this stuff has a solubility of 310%

Phosphite, hydrogen phosphite, hydronium ions, water.. very little actual phosphorous acid species in solution if any (molecular amounts).

Edit - the product is a solid Mullray? What's being mixed with it? I just can't see this being a good thing to put on fields - hydro I have not a fucken clue.