Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[nr nodes]

I don't have it handy, but you can also reference the Uof U study with SPD readings from their test vs what Philips published (very close for the Agro).

 

[Beta Test Team]

I'm sorry but none of this seems consistent with the product literature:

MasterColor CDM-T Elite 315W/942 T12 U P
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601167302_na/928601167302_na_pss_aenus.pdf
View attachment 306892

MasterColor CDM-T Elite 315W/930 T12 U P
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601167102_na/928601167102_na_pss_aenus.pdf
View attachment 306891

Mastercolor CDM-T Elite 315W T12 CL Agro P
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601172201_na/928601172201_na_pss_aenus.pdf
(spd for the agro is not on the last cut sheet)
View attachment 306886

Everything I wrote is shown to be correct from the SPDs you listed. And if you look at the work by Dr. Bugbee you referenced, you'll see the bigger NIR spike from the GreenPower (3rd screenshot you posted), as well as higher R:Fr ratio (using a 10 nm range, with 5 nm + and -), and, greater UV from the MasterColor (942; the first screenshot).

I don't like what Philips has done the whole naming thing, they've really confused matters with all the re-naming of the lamps.

And I don't think you'll find the umol/s per joule in PAR range data in those spec sheets (but maybe I'm wrong, I don't recall).

Here's the MasterColor 942 (4200K) vs. GreenPower (used to be called MasterColor Elite Agro 930):
http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/poster/pub__6740181.pdf (note the way they define R:Fr ratio is to wide)

 

[nr nodes]

Really? Are we looking at the same links? I'm showing 3 lamps and you seem to be talking about only 2?

And all the lamps I see are called Mastercolor, even the Agro/GP

And also I think all this hairsplitting about UV levels is misplaced.

 

[Beta Test Team]

I think you're a bit mixed up about what lamp is what. And there's no hair splitting about UV, there's a considerable difference between the two (GreenPower and MasterColor).

The first screenshot is the MasterColor Elite 942 that people are writing about in this thread. The MasterColor Elite Agro 930 you listed (3rd screenshot) is now the GreenPower (at least I think that's the correct SPD). See: https://www.cycloptics.com/green-power-315w.

The 2nd screenshot you posted is the MasterColor Elite 930 (non-Agro version), which isn't sold by Cycloptics or ePapillion, that I know of.

I'm sure rives can help clear up the lamp naming issue, because I don't know all the iterations of each name and I get confused sometimes as well; Philips seems to rename a lamp per week.

 

[nr nodes]

What did I mix up? That info is all straight from Philips. By misplaced I mean that other factors between these lamps are much more important for what we do, than the relative UV differences at these levels.

And I don't see where Bugbee shows NIR comparisons here, perhaps we're talking about different studies?

View attachment USU_spectral_analysis.pdf

 

[Beta Test Team]

By mixed up I only mean the lamps we're discussing. I think maybe we're talking past each other. I am writing about the MasterColor 942 and the GreenPower (used to be the MasterColor Agro 930), not the non-Agro MasterColor 930 (the 2nd screenshot you posted). Sorry if I'm not much help, I find Philips naming scheme to be insane.

The "Elite Agro" in that study you posted is the MasterColor Agro 930 (the 3rd screenshot you posted), which is now called the GreenPower CDM.

But again, I don't feel overly confident that I understand Philips's crazy ass naming scheme, so hopefully rives or someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Beta Test Team]

@ nr nodes, hopefully these figures will help show what I mean. All three lamps are tested, but we're only discussing the MasterColor (942) and the GreenPower (Agro version of the 930):

Here's my album with all kinds of neat graphs comparing all three lamps you wrote about:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=58400



In this one the MasterColor is the "4200K General Illumination," to show NIR difference:

 

[Jhhnn]

I think we're down to splitting hairs between the various flavors of Philips 315w lamps. They all show vastly less wasted energy in the infrared compared to HPS with standard MH being intermediate. What difference there is between the CMH lamps wrt infrared appears to be small.

It's po-tay-toes and po-tah-toes between the CMH lamps for me, anyway. I'll try to gather the bits as bargains to convert my super sun 2 to handle two 315 lamps when I shut down for summer. Using an enclosed fixture, I'll happily buy the least expensive among them, believing that they'll all do a great job & save money in the long run over my current 1000w system. T9, T12, 942, 930, Agro- it's all good.

 

[Beta Test Team]

I think we're down to splitting hairs between the various flavors of Philips 315w lamps. They all show vastly less wasted energy in the infrared compared to HPS with standard MH being intermediate. What difference there is between the CMH lamps wrt infrared appears to be small.

It's po-tay-toes and po-tah-toes between the CMH lamps for me, anyway. I'll try to gather the bits as bargains to convert my super sun 2 to handle two 315 lamps when I shut down for summer. Using an enclosed fixture, I'll happily buy the least expensive among them, believing that they'll all do a great job & save money in the long run over my current 1000w system. T9, T12, 942, 930, Agro- it's all good.

Agreed. However, there is worthwhile difference between the flavors of CDMs from Philips, granted, they're not major, and simply choosing Philips CDM is a big improvement over HPS and MH. I think it's important to note not in terms of photosynthetic efficiency, however, which is where DE HPS really shine - no pun intended.

That said, if had my druthers I would choose MasterColor 942 any day of the week and twice on Sunday, rather than MasterColor 930 or the GreenPower.

 

[rives]

BTT, I think that you are misinterpreting the Philips' names (pretty damn easy to do considering the frequency that they change).

The MasterColor (or MasterColour) name has been around since the beginning, and I believe has been applied to the entire series of 315 lamps. I have a bunch of T9 930's with a manufacture date of August, 2009 that all carry the MasterColour name, as well as my T12 Agro's (pre-dating the GreenPower - I don't have any of that generation yet).

Quote from the mogul base version brochure - "The Philips MasterColor CDM Elite Medium Watt system offers an unrivalled level of light quality and performance. The lamp’s sparkling white light creates a natural ambience and portrays vibrant colors."

From the original design guide - "MasterColor CDM Elite MW is a medium wattage lighting solution based on Philips unique CDM technology. This technology provides high quality and highly efficient white light and consists of a special developed lamp, ballast and holder." http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc...literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf

Examples - http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...m-t-elite-med-wattage/928601164602_NA/product

http://growershouse.com/philips-mastercolor-elite-315w-lamp-t12-3100-k

 

[Beta Test Team]

BTT, I think that you are misinterpreting the Philips' names (pretty damn easy to do considering the frequency that they change).

The MasterColor (or MasterColour) name has been around since the beginning, and I believe has been applied to the entire series of 315 lamps. I have a bunch of T9 930's with a manufacture date of August, 2009 that all carry the MasterColour name, as well as my T12 Agro's (pre-dating the GreenPower - I don't have any of that generation yet).

Quote from the mogul base version brochure - "The Philips MasterColor CDM Elite Medium Watt system offers an unrivalled level of light quality and performance. The lamp’s sparkling white light creates a natural ambience and portrays vibrant colors."

From the original design guide - "MasterColor CDM Elite MW is a medium wattage lighting solution based on Philips unique CDM technology. This technology provides high quality and highly efficient white light and consists of a special developed lamp, ballast and holder." http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc...literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf

Examples - http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...m-t-elite-med-wattage/928601164602_NA/product

http://growershouse.com/philips-mastercolor-elite-315w-lamp-t12-3100-k

Interesting, yes, seems so. What you wrote jives with nr nodes post with the three lamps all called MasterColor. And the GreenPower is now the just the GreenPower (not part of MasterColor line any longer).

The "Green Power CDM-TP" lamp (prod. code #41521-6), which used to be the MasterColor Elite Agro 930. The same one from your third link I think(?): http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-6414.pdf

The MasterColor I'm referring to is the 942; ePapillion calls this "Daylight." The full name for the 942 I think is "MasterColor CDM-T Elite 315W/942 T12."
http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/fixtures/d-papillon

Don't you just want to give Philips a big hug for their naming scheme?!

 

[rives]

I think that the MasterColor name has been used on all of the Philips CMH products at one time or another. It's interesting that they've stopped using it on the GreenPower version. Perhaps it is because accurate color rendering isn't a priority for an Ag lamp, but is important for architectural applications.

 

[Beta Test Team]

Interesting insight! (And I totally agree about CRI.)

 

[HorseBadoritiz]

This is the bulb that Advanced sells in their combo.

CDM315/U/O/4K ED37 MasterColor CDM Elite Medium Wattage

It's the only mogul base Philips CMH I can find. How does it compare to the lamps with PGZ bases? I'm having a hard time figuring out who is talking about what!

Thanks!

 

[nr nodes]

 

[Beta Test Team]

Yup, all are Green Power, which was called (and is still sold as) the MasterColor Elite Agro 930. That's the lamp I was writing about, and is the "Agro" lamp listed in the graphs I posted (showing UV and NIR).

Sorry for any confusion I caused, I have already edited all the posts I made to make it clear what lamps I was writing about; that is, the MasterColor Elite 942 and the MasterColor Elite Agro 930 (aka Green Power).

 

[spleebale]

I would like to summarize the findings for the sake of clarity (please correct if wrong):

-There are actually two different Philips 315W "930" bulbs (spectrum wise, as each come in multiple base options).
-One of the two 930 (meaning 3000K range) bulbs is branded the "Elite Agro," often mislabeled on websites as "Argo," and is also known as (and called on the same box) the "Green Power." This bulb has a monster spike in the 670-685nm and seems to quite clearly be the best choice for bloom.
-The other 930 bulb seems to have a good bit more valuable 630-660nm radiation than either other bulb, but also has FAR less blue than the 942 and none of the monster red spike of the Agro, and most of the territory where it throws more light than the other bulbs is in the 525-610 range, which is less desirable than the red or blue, making it probably worse than either of the other two bulbs for growing.
-There is only one flavor (spectrum) of 942 bulb in 315W CDMs, and it has the most blue/the highest blue to red ratio, while also having excellent mid-range red, so it is probably the best veg bulb (depending on what sort of structure you are looking to develop; the higher blue should keep ladies bushier and nodes tighter, which is generally desirable for indoor growing).


...Although after looking at the graphs BTT provided, I am skeptical as to whether the 50 micromoles of extra blue (~28%) + extra green in the 942 is worth sacrificing 120 micromoles of red (from the Agro). It's funny, looking at the spds convinced me that the 942 was a better VEG bulb, but the bar graphs seem to make the information clearer. I guess in the end only a good test will really settle it.

 

[Ultrahot_Grower]

This is the bulb that Advanced sells in their combo.

CDM315/U/O/4K ED37 MasterColor CDM Elite Medium Wattage

It's the only mogul base Philips CMH I can find. How does it compare to the lamps with PGZ bases? I'm having a hard time figuring out who is talking about what!

Thanks!

I bought two ballasts from Advanced and he errantly sent me one of the mogul 942 ED37 bulbs. I have no plans to use it, he let me keep it since he was MIA for a large part of my ordering process. I wish he would've taken it back because I truly have no use for it.

The first thing I would say is the bulb is quite large. It's 4.625" in diameter and 11" long. It would not fit in my lowrider hood without touching the top. It seems to eat up space in my blockbuster hood as well. Although it's open rated, it doesn't feel as safe to me due to not having a protective secondary glass like the PGZX18 versions come with. CMH bulbs operate at very high pressures and temps so I just feel better knowing that PGZX18 bulb has that extra layer to protect me.

I didn't fire it so I can't comment on how well it works or the performance. All of my hoods are now running PGZ18 sockets so I can't perform any tests for you, but I may be able to snap some pictures if needed.

 

[rives]

I would like to summarize the findings for the sake of clarity (please correct if wrong):

-There are actually two different Philips 315W "930" bulbs (spectrum wise, as each come in multiple base options).
-One of the two 930 (meaning 3000K range) bulbs is branded the "Elite Agro," often mislabeled on websites as "Argo," and is also known as (and called on the same box) the "Green Power." This bulb has a monster spike in the 670-685nm and seems to quite clearly be the best choice for bloom.
-The other 930 bulb seems to have a good bit more valuable 630-660nm radiation than either other bulb, but also has FAR less blue than the 942 and none of the monster red spike of the Agro, and most of the territory where it throws more light than the other bulbs is in the 525-610 range, which is less desirable than the red or blue, making it probably worse than either of the other two bulbs for growing.
-There is only one flavor (spectrum) of 942 bulb in 315W CDMs, and it has the most blue/the highest blue to red ratio, while also having excellent mid-range red, so it is probably the best veg bulb (depending on what sort of structure you are looking to develop; the higher blue should keep ladies bushier and nodes tighter, which is generally desirable for indoor growing).


...Although after looking at the graphs BTT provided, I am skeptical as to whether the 50 micromoles of extra blue (~28%) + extra green in the 942 is worth sacrificing 120 micromoles of red (from the Agro). It's funny, looking at the spds convinced me that the 942 was a better VEG bulb, but the bar graphs seem to make the information clearer. I guess in the end only a good test will really settle it.

You want CLARITY?!?

No, it is more complicated than that. Far more.....

There are both T9 and T12 versions of both the 930 and the 942. All of the Agros are T12, but not all T12s are Agro/Greenpower, and the Agro/Greenpower come in both 930 & 942 - I think. I have seen T12 942s advertised many times and referred to as a "Philips Master Colour Agro 315w/942" and they sometimes call it the "Plasma Killer" - see the links at the bottom. However, I have never seen a Philips data sheet that referred to a 942 Agro, so it may be a mistake by the retailers similar to the "Argo" designation, or it could be more of Philips changing their names every 15 minutes.

Now, how much actual difference there is between the lamps is debatable. Your breakdown is correct about what it SHOULD be, but the reality is that the 930 T9 lamps work pretty damn well. I bought a case of them in a smoking deal before the other flavors were available, and have also used the 930 Agro since it came out. There is a difference, but it's pretty damn slim. I haven't attempted to try and quantify it, nor have I done a side-by-side, but I've done numerous runs with both lamps on the same strains and while I'm reasonably sure that there is a difference, it's not earth-shaking. I think that the Agro holds the edge for yield by a few percent, but I have been unable to tell any difference in the quality. I still need to try the 942, though.

These were both grown under T9 930s -

https://www.growshoponline.nu/vmchk/lighting-equipment/bulbs/philips-mastercolour-daylight-315w/942/

http://www.autopot.nl/en/webshop/de...sse-lampen/philips-mastercolour-agro-315w/942

 

[Beta Test Team]

Great post rives. And yup, I have never seen nor heard from folks that deal with Philips that the 942 has ever been called "Agro" by Philips.