Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[pug1010]

Thanks rives ... that makes it a lot clearer.

I am interested in the inefficiency of the step up converters being used in different 120v ballasts - especially those that are used in conjunction with phillips ballasts.

I am also interested to see if there are any 120v ballasts that actually have been designed from the ground up to work with 120v and therefore run more efficiently and cooler.

I have a rough idea now which systems are more efficient running on 120v from a few different forums, but it gets more difficult as sometimes the companies change ballast manufacturers.

I've even heard that philips is working on a 120v-240v ballast, which would be great as chances are they will be quite efficient at 120v ... this info seems to be coming from the dpap distributors, but is taking along time to confirm.

 

[rives]

Pug, there are a couple of ways to arrive at a 120v ballast for the 315. Some of the companies, like the ones that use a Philips ballast in their fixtures, will use a step-up transformer to convert from 120v to 240v. The ballast itself is still a 240v ballast, but the transformer allows you to run it on 120v. Transformers run hot. Their efficiency is usually in the 95% area (some a little better, some much worse), so that 5% loss is converted to heat.

There are also 120/240v ballasts like the Welthink. These are the type of units that I was referring to above that reportedly run a good deal warmer on 120v than when they are fed with 240v.

Philips had said earlier that it wasn't possible for them to manufacture a 120v ballast for the 315 because the size of it would be increased so much that it wouldn't fit in the envelope that they considered necessary for their product line. I don't know if they have made some design advances that make it possible now or not.

 

[pug1010]

Thanks rives … that help heaps.

I am starting to think that the 120v Philips ballast might be just wishful thinking …

If I owned … I would definitely be putting in a 240v line - renting makes the plug and play option a reasonable choice though.

Like most folks … it's always nice to get the most efficient (and coolest) option possible.

 

[Ez Rider]

There's no noticeable difference heat wise between 120/240v operation with the pargrow's.

 

[Avinash.miles]

my wellthink ballasts seem to run same temp 120/240 v also

 

[willowz]

Best lamps I've seen to date and the price is appeasing:

http://growershouse.com/ushio-hilux-gro-cmh-ceramic-mh-lamp-315w-4200k

 

[pug1010]

Thanks EZ and Avinash … that is really good news.

 

[theLumberjack]

hey guys i seem to have a problem in my room and this is a very knowledgeable bunch. Apparently my outlets in this house are not grounded. I noticed some pain when touching the tops of my 315's before and just thought it was heat. I also noticed pain when reaching in a running reservoir to grab a hose. I thought I had a cut and the nutes burnt it..... but now.... I am pretty sure I am getting slightly shocked.

reason for concern? Is this gonna hurt my plants? much higher risk for fire?

 

[rives]

hey guys i seem to have a problem in my room and this is a very knowledgeable bunch. Apparently my outlets in this house are not grounded. I noticed some pain when touching the tops of my 315's before and just thought it was heat. I also noticed pain when reaching in a running reservoir to grab a hose. I thought I had a cut and the nutes burnt it..... but now.... I am pretty sure I am getting slightly shocked.

reason for concern? Is this gonna hurt my plants? much higher risk for fire?

I can't help you with whatever impact there might be on the plants, but yes, there is a MUCH higher risk of fire if you are running ungrounded. The National Electrical Code came about because insurance companies got together and formed the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association), and the NFPA is still the organization that puts out the NEC.

Grounding is used to accelerate the response time of the fuses or breakers that are protecting the circuit. Without grounding, the circuit would stay energized until the current sloooowwwly rose (if ever) to the point that the fuse blew IF the conductors shorted to one another or the device being powered shorted out. With grounding, as soon as an energized conductor comes into contact with ground, the current spikes and the fuse blows.

You could use a GFCI, even ungrounded. They work by comparing the source and return current, and if there is a discrepancy, they trip. There are portable GFCI pigtails that are used on construction sites that can plug in inline with your circuit.

I can talk you through some simple testing for your grounding if you have a voltage tester and know how to use it.

 

[krunchbubble]

I was talking to a Dimlux rep today about their 315 and 630....

Did you know their ballasts have THIS option? I mean holy shit!

"An OptiClimate canopy temperature camera can be connected to the system to monitor evaporation from the crop: an excessive canopy temperature is indicative of problems with the plants’ evaporation capacity (for example, due too little water or excessive light).
If the canopy temperature rises to an excessive level then the DimLux ballasts are dimmed or switched off until the temperature falls to an acceptable level: failure to lower an excessive canopy temperature would result in the plants reducing their evaporation capacity by closing the stomata, which would in turn shut down the assimilation of CO2 and photosynthesis – and halt growth.
A prolonged shutdown will ultimately result in scorched foliage and cause irreparable damage to the plant’s ‘engine’ (the foliage). The canopy temperature is of greater importance to plants than the ambient temperature!"

 

[Hammerhead]

Isn't the ambient temp at canopy what we are measuring? Can the same results be done using high temp shut off? I use this when the canopy temp gets to hot the lights shut off.

My 1st test plant flowering under the 630 turned out stellar. Only thing I wish for was higher ceilings. Some plants are getting to close witch caused scorching on some leaves. Plants that are kept short will do very well. Since my plants are vegged large I can start them under the 630 finish them in the main room if they stretch to much. 24" is the max I would veg to in the future.

 

[theLumberjack]

wow, thanks for that explanation rives. looks like I will be buying a couple of those pigtails today.
https://www.amazon.com/Prime-GF420802-Outdoor-Circuit-Interrupter/dp/B0009KNZYY/ref=pd_lpo_60_tr_t_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q9EPMJZQVBQQR7FE8ZM9

 

[GainGreene]

I was talking to a Dimlux rep today about their 315 and 630....

Did you know their ballasts have THIS option? I mean holy shit!

"An OptiClimate canopy temperature camera can be connected to the system to monitor evaporation from the crop: an excessive canopy temperature is indicative of problems with the plants’ evaporation capacity (for example, due too little water or excessive light).
If the canopy temperature rises to an excessive level then the DimLux ballasts are dimmed or switched off until the temperature falls to an acceptable level: failure to lower an excessive canopy temperature would result in the plants reducing their evaporation capacity by closing the stomata, which would in turn shut down the assimilation of CO2 and photosynthesis – and halt growth.
A prolonged shutdown will ultimately result in scorched foliage and cause irreparable damage to the plant’s ‘engine’ (the foliage). The canopy temperature is of greater importance to plants than the ambient temperature!"

What was the pricing on these units?

 

[Zeez]

You could use a GFCI, even ungrounded. They work by comparing the source and return current, and if there is a discrepancy, they trip. There are portable GFCI pigtails that are used on construction sites that can plug in inline with your circuit.

If he is getting shocked, that means that there is a short somewhere and juice is going where it shouldn't. If that's the case the GFCI will just trip sensing the short. Better to trouble shoot first. Maybe find an outlet somewhere that does have a ground and run an extension cord to the setup and see if you still are getting juiced.

 

[smile]

Get your electrical system checked and fixed.

Risk of fire is bad enough.. getting yourself electrocuted is a possibility too.

Really not worth the risk.

Safety first!

 

[rives]

If he is getting shocked, that means that there is a short somewhere and juice is going where it shouldn't. If that's the case the GFCI will just trip sensing the short. Better to trouble shoot first. Maybe find an outlet somewhere that does have a ground and run an extension cord to the setup and see if you still are getting juiced.

Actually, he "thinks" he is getting shocked. If the leakage is of such a low level that he isn't sure, and there is no ground, it is going to be pretty difficult to troubleshoot unless he happens to luck across it. Simply running a different cord and sticking his hand back in the water probably isn't a real attractive idea to him. The GFCI tripping will verify that there is a problem if there is one, will stop tripping when the problem is removed, and will protect the circuit in the future if there is no ground.

 

[krunchbubble]

What was the pricing on these units?

Too expensive, didnt ask....

The rep was far more interested in talking LED's...

 

[theLumberjack]

Actually, he "thinks" he is getting shocked. If the leakage is of such a low level that he isn't sure, and there is no ground, it is going to be pretty difficult to troubleshoot unless he happens to luck across it. Simply running a different cord and sticking his hand back in the water probably isn't a real attractive idea to him. The GFCI tripping will verify that there is a problem if there is one, will stop tripping when the problem is removed, and will protect the circuit in the future if there is no ground.

I will stick my hand back in the water if it helps figure something out....
When I touch the screws on top of my light it happens too... also i had a friend helping me trim the other day and claimed the can fan zapped him...
Is this a short issue or just not being grounded?
I did pick up some of those gfi pigtails.

 

[Zeez]

Actually, he "thinks" he is getting shocked. If the leakage is of such a low level that he isn't sure, and there is no ground, it is going to be pretty difficult to troubleshoot unless he happens to luck across it. Simply running a different cord and sticking his hand back in the water probably isn't a real attractive idea to him. The GFCI tripping will verify that there is a problem if there is one, will stop tripping when the problem is removed, and will protect the circuit in the future if there is no ground.

Definitely a safe approach. The times I got zapped there was no doubt about it. The European 220 has a real burn to it.

 

[rives]

I will stick my hand back in the water if it helps figure something out....
When I touch the screws on top of my light it happens too... also i had a friend helping me trim the other day and claimed the can fan zapped him...
Is this a short issue or just not being grounded?
I did pick up some of those gfi pigtails.

You've probably got both issues - if there wasn't a short, then there wouldn't be power going to the parts that should be grounded. If they were grounded, they would sink the voltage to ground and you wouldn't be getting rapped.

Apparently, at least a portion of your place is grounded. If it weren't, then you wouldn't be getting shocked by touching these things while you were grounded - the voltage would just "float" there, with no path to ground. Indoors on dry floors, the exception would be if you were touching plumbing because metal pipes typically make a damn good ground.

The other thing that may be going on is a "ground loop", which usually happens with improper grounding at a sub-panel. It is a very, very low level of voltage that comes about most often when you don't isolate the ground from the neutral at the sub (the only place that they should be tied together is at the main). Ground loops will make your audio equipment hum, can raise hell with electronic devices and are more of a pain in the ass than an actual hazard because the current is very limited. It was first isolated as a problem when they started using automatic milking machines in dairies. The cows feet were usually pretty well grounded from the mud, and when the dairymen hooked the machines up to them, the cows teats would get shocked.

Do you have a volt meter?

Definitely a safe approach. The times I got zapped there was no doubt about it. The European 220 has a real burn to it.

Even with 120v, if you get hit with the full voltage, there is little doubt! High resistance faults or high resistance grounds can make it much more difficult to tell if it was your imagination or if it really happened.