InsaneMembrane
Member
Also my water source tested at 180ppm which is considered high in akalinity, the ideal range being 100ppm
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PH shift or waterlogged
- Thread starter InsaneMembrane
- Start date
InsaneMembrane
Member
And this
This graph shows influence of the water alkalinity on the pH of vinca plugs after 49 days. Notice the higher the water alkalinity, the higher the pH of the growing medium rose after 49 days. Data taken from: D. Bailey & P. V. Nelson, Substrate pH and Water Quality. 1996 Ohio Short Course
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Growenhaft
Active member
how are your plants?
Do you have current pictures ... especially of the youngest shoots.
how would you describe the development of the last few days?
Is it progressing or has it come to a standstill ... or is there an improvement in sight?
Do you have current pictures ... especially of the youngest shoots.
how would you describe the development of the last few days?
Is it progressing or has it come to a standstill ... or is there an improvement in sight?
InsaneMembrane
Member
They ate through the most affected leaves and I picked the dead ones off but I haven’t spotted it progressing further, should finish alright. I watered twice with pHed water to 6.4 since the symptoms appeared. The important thing is keeping these green:
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Growenhaft
Active member
may i show you something?
this is my rainwater
unfortunately I don't have any pure calcium here, let's try algae lime. I take 150g for about 200l of water.
the ph value initially drops a little.
in about 2 hours it should rain for me. the barrel will fill up to almost 500l ... hopefully. we will see what effect this has on the ph value.
this is my rainwater
unfortunately I don't have any pure calcium here, let's try algae lime. I take 150g for about 200l of water.
the ph value initially drops a little.
in about 2 hours it should rain for me. the barrel will fill up to almost 500l ... hopefully. we will see what effect this has on the ph value.
InsaneMembrane
Member
I moved away from the rain being the cause of this. Im guessing high alkalinity is the problem in my case, then water pH makes no difference as water can be high alkaline at 7 pH or 6 pH or 8 pH. What makes the difference then is the carbonates and bicarbonates that are being accumulated in my medium over time and thus raising my
mediums pH. Im gonna be testing the water for Ca ppms this week and my guess is they are gonna be really high given that its not treated with any chemicals. I will also try to collect rain water and have that tested for Ca ppms.
mediums pH. Im gonna be testing the water for Ca ppms this week and my guess is they are gonna be really high given that its not treated with any chemicals. I will also try to collect rain water and have that tested for Ca ppms.
I feel quite sure it's pH related. I can't remember the M.O but by about pH8 the P is melding with one of the other metals, making an unavailable compound. We see it in the dark stripes. The issue isn't that it couldn't get the P. It's the P changing state. The pH was just unworkable, no matter what we did with the food.
I also had a remarkably fast Domina. I had it decades... it was so nice. Lent it a friend as I needed to concentrate on other areas. Only rely on yourself in this game..
Glad to see you making progress
I also had a remarkably fast Domina. I had it decades... it was so nice. Lent it a friend as I needed to concentrate on other areas. Only rely on yourself in this game..
Glad to see you making progress
Growenhaft
Active member
I guess I'll have to apologize to you.
the rain wasn´t come. I was just checking the pH in my rain barrel ... it rose to 9.2!
In addition to the apology, I would like to thank you at the same time ... I had stored incorrect information for years ... luckily I was never dependent on it.
To be on the safe side, I repeated the test in a 20 liter bucket with tap water. I noticed the following. at the moment when vigorous stirring, the pH value falls ... after approx. 3-4 minutes it is already 0.6 higher than the starting water.,
So sorry and thank you very much.
InsaneMembrane
Member
links explaining water akalinity vs water pH and how high alkalinity water affects medium pH.
https://youtu.be/9qhWvj0c_kg
Basically the same as the vid but in text form: https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/water_alkalinity_and_ph_what_they_mean_in_regards_to_water_quality
https://youtu.be/9qhWvj0c_kg
Basically the same as the vid but in text form: https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/water_alkalinity_and_ph_what_they_mean_in_regards_to_water_quality
Growenhaft
Active member
So we don't get each other wrong.
The fact that I was wrong about the increase in calcium beyond Ph7 does not change the fact that it would be a very big coincidence if your problem was not related to the calcium.
Calcium was indicated by the brightening as a deficiency ... at the same time all mobile nutrients were removed from the old leaves.
If your conclusion were correct, calcium should not appear to be a deficiency ... it would be extensively available as part of the carbonate hardness.
Your plants are currently in a phase where the need for calcium is highest.
Your plants have got used to high amounts of calcium from their wells. Due to the heavy rain, your calcium in the well was proportionally less. less calcium poorer absorption of all nutrients.
with heavy rain and fast flowing water, the water has the least contact time to be able to accumulate. if a lot of fresh rainwater has really got into your well, the buffer effect of your water also changes ... the ph changes.
why should bicarbonate build up in the phase in which the most calcium is needed? Why should the symptoms appear if you have poured with water that had a higher proportion of rainwater?
why should nutrient exclusion take place without the plant showing it ... the way it holds its leaves and spreads its fingers?
it doesn't make any sense ... and just because I was wrong about one point doesn't mean that everything is wrong ..
The fact that I was wrong about the increase in calcium beyond Ph7 does not change the fact that it would be a very big coincidence if your problem was not related to the calcium.
Calcium was indicated by the brightening as a deficiency ... at the same time all mobile nutrients were removed from the old leaves.
If your conclusion were correct, calcium should not appear to be a deficiency ... it would be extensively available as part of the carbonate hardness.
Your plants are currently in a phase where the need for calcium is highest.
Your plants have got used to high amounts of calcium from their wells. Due to the heavy rain, your calcium in the well was proportionally less. less calcium poorer absorption of all nutrients.
with heavy rain and fast flowing water, the water has the least contact time to be able to accumulate. if a lot of fresh rainwater has really got into your well, the buffer effect of your water also changes ... the ph changes.
why should bicarbonate build up in the phase in which the most calcium is needed? Why should the symptoms appear if you have poured with water that had a higher proportion of rainwater?
why should nutrient exclusion take place without the plant showing it ... the way it holds its leaves and spreads its fingers?
it doesn't make any sense ... and just because I was wrong about one point doesn't mean that everything is wrong ..
InsaneMembrane
Member
It might just as well be abundant but this particular strain has a hard time picking it up in a medium of pH 6.9. And the medium’s pH got to 6.9 over time due to water being hard in general. Like I stated before, I doubt that one example of high pH water did this by itself, it might have pushed things over the edge or not, what I’m trying to say is that I’m
observing a rise in medium pH over weeks, not over night.
For the last few posts I’ve been talking about hardness / alkalinity of water affecting medium pH. I am no longer talking about water pH affecting anything.
Everywhere it states plants grow best in medium between 6-7 pH. Who is to say this goes for every particular strain ? Are we all growing the same cuts ? No we are not. I have 3 other strains in there, here’s one example growing in the same soil pH of 6.9 without a single issue. Why is the other strain I posted pics of displaying the symptoms and this one isnt? Same soil, same watering, same flowering time. Clearly she has an easier time uptaking nutes at 6.9 than the other no ?
observing a rise in medium pH over weeks, not over night.
For the last few posts I’ve been talking about hardness / alkalinity of water affecting medium pH. I am no longer talking about water pH affecting anything.
Everywhere it states plants grow best in medium between 6-7 pH. Who is to say this goes for every particular strain ? Are we all growing the same cuts ? No we are not. I have 3 other strains in there, here’s one example growing in the same soil pH of 6.9 without a single issue. Why is the other strain I posted pics of displaying the symptoms and this one isnt? Same soil, same watering, same flowering time. Clearly she has an easier time uptaking nutes at 6.9 than the other no ?
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InsaneMembrane
Member
Here is some more info from another forum, might explain better than me:
Alkalinity and pH are two important factors in determining the suitability of water for irrigating plants. pH is a measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions (H+) in water or other liquids. In general, water for irrigation should have a pH b etween 5.0 and 7.0. Water with pH below 7.0 is termed "acidic" and water with pH above 7.0 is termed "basic"; pH 7.0 is "neutral". Sometimes the term "alkaline" is used instead of "basic" and often "alkaline" is confused with "alkalinity". Alkalinity is a measure of the water's ability to neutralize acidity. An alkalinity test measures the level of bicarbonates, carbonates, and hydroxides in water and test results are generally expressed as "ppm of calcium carbonate (CaCO3)". The desirable range f or irrigation water is 0 to 100 ppm calcium carbonate. Levels between 30 and 60 ppm are considered optimum for most plants.
Irrigation water tests should always include both pH and alkalinity tests. A pH test by itself is not an indication of alkalinity. Water with high alkalinity (i.e., high levels of bicarbonates or carbonates) always has a pH value ÷7 or above, but water with high pH doesn't always have high alkalinity. This is important because high alkalinity exerts the most significant effects on growing medium fertility and
In most cases irrigating with water having a "high pH" ( 7) causes no problems as long as the alkalinity is low. This water will probably have little effect on growing medium pH because it has little ability to neutralize acidity.
Of greater concern is the case where water having both high pH and high alkalinity is used for irrigation. One result is that the pH of the growing medium may increase significantly with time. This increase may be so large that normal lime rates must be reduced by as much as 50%. In effect the water acts as a dilute solution of limestone! The problem is most serious when plants are grown in small containers because small volumes of soil are poorly buffered to pH change. Therefore, the combination of high pH and high alkalinity is of particular concern in plug seedling trays. Trace element deficiencies and imbalances of calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg) can result from irrigating with high alkalinity water.
Alkalinity and pH are two important factors in determining the suitability of water for irrigating plants. pH is a measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions (H+) in water or other liquids. In general, water for irrigation should have a pH b etween 5.0 and 7.0. Water with pH below 7.0 is termed "acidic" and water with pH above 7.0 is termed "basic"; pH 7.0 is "neutral". Sometimes the term "alkaline" is used instead of "basic" and often "alkaline" is confused with "alkalinity". Alkalinity is a measure of the water's ability to neutralize acidity. An alkalinity test measures the level of bicarbonates, carbonates, and hydroxides in water and test results are generally expressed as "ppm of calcium carbonate (CaCO3)". The desirable range f or irrigation water is 0 to 100 ppm calcium carbonate. Levels between 30 and 60 ppm are considered optimum for most plants.
Irrigation water tests should always include both pH and alkalinity tests. A pH test by itself is not an indication of alkalinity. Water with high alkalinity (i.e., high levels of bicarbonates or carbonates) always has a pH value ÷7 or above, but water with high pH doesn't always have high alkalinity. This is important because high alkalinity exerts the most significant effects on growing medium fertility and
In most cases irrigating with water having a "high pH" ( 7) causes no problems as long as the alkalinity is low. This water will probably have little effect on growing medium pH because it has little ability to neutralize acidity.
Of greater concern is the case where water having both high pH and high alkalinity is used for irrigation. One result is that the pH of the growing medium may increase significantly with time. This increase may be so large that normal lime rates must be reduced by as much as 50%. In effect the water acts as a dilute solution of limestone! The problem is most serious when plants are grown in small containers because small volumes of soil are poorly buffered to pH change. Therefore, the combination of high pH and high alkalinity is of particular concern in plug seedling trays. Trace element deficiencies and imbalances of calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg) can result from irrigating with high alkalinity water.
Growenhaft
Active member
that comes from their PH adjustment. They use citric acid, which is an organic product.
even if lemon makes you sour, but if it breaks down it will always be alkaline .. drive up the pH value.
but it can only do this successfully if the medium loses its buffering effect ... it loses this through a decrease in carbonate hardness in which, for example, there is too little calcium.
you should have your water tested in an aquarium store ... to find out the exact values. and at least get a cheap EC device to get facts.
they give good earth ... in abundance. trust your product ... do not lower the ph value ... especially not with an agent which becomes basic in organic decomposition.
that the ph value is acceptable and that your plant can feed itself well ... by acidifying itself through root excretions, the abundance of outdoor growers proves ... or do you think the soil in the open has exactly 6.5 PH? No, in the Somme it will be beyond pH7.
i see the rapid improvement in the condition of the plants as additional evidence that the shortage was temporary. you will probably not be able to remedy nutrient exclusion due to alkaline medium with a single watering with pH 6.5.
G
Guest
Organic soils and aquaponics swap microbes/metabolites at high rates through the root, the difference in quality comes down to the microbial metabolites taken up and the ability of the plant to produce a higher quality auxin,since those microbes contain levels of trace minerals that could not be taken up otherwise.
It's not terpenes making organic bud better. Organic bud is high in much more organic smells: Ketones for breath, thiols for BO, acids for feet. The terpenes that are present are held in a sugar-lipid matrix that does not exist with chemoponics. The diversity of metabolites in organic cannabis will blend and convert into intense new flavor/aroma substances over time, in the same way that a dead body becomes more pungent, so does they break down of fats and oils in organic cannabis, while hydroponic gets worse with time, and only smelled like terpenes in the first place, with zero sugars and little acids for flavor: Curing is futile with hydroponics.
Microbes not only make the flavor "better", they boost the medicinal value, and increase recreational effects 3 fold by boosting sugars and acids that introduce the plant's phytocannabinoids to your endocannabinoids at the receptors (you can't get that warm fuzzy umbrella feeling with chemoponics), and also be creating fatty acids that are usedtto synthesize more potent, less abundant (profitable) cannabinoids with zero negative health effects, such as thcv, thc-p, & 11- hydroxy thc.
The biggest hangup the cannabis industry has is focusing on the most abundant isoprene/hexanoic derivatives rather than the most potent ones... Capitalism at work. High volume low potency (delta9 thc) dabs and e-joints are going to have a toll on users some day. Same with the mono terpenes, the percentages are so high for so little reward. I see the tobacco vape industry pulling fruit scraps real quick.. Oh yeah, they already did that and disguised it as a "orange man bad" media piece.
Growenhaft
Active member
oh buddy,
why do you think that the microbes only in organic soil and in aquaponics have an effect on the taste?
your knowledge is informative and correct in terms of content ... but explains reactions as they occur in every type of medium.
microbes is just an umbrella term ... including viruses, bacteria and fungi .... you have this in every form of medium in different proportions. For example, they have a better microbiological ratio in coco than in soil. this is confirmed by a better growth rate and thus better yield ... it is also scientifically proven. especially when it comes to the symbiosis with trichoderma, the coco is best. but let's not go into so much detail at this point ... it distracts from the actual topic ... which you unfortunately didn't give an opinion on.
that's why i ask you directly now ... because you get the impression that you understand something about chemistry ...
is the final theory of the thread starter correct or incorrect? can something like that happen in a 20 liter pot of bio-earth? is water with a high ph value automatically alkaline? is water that would be alkaline and the ph value is lowered to 6.5 still alkaline? despite the effects on the crystal lattice of the water? could I, poured it, drive the ph value in 20l earth into the alkaline ... if, in addition, a strong calcium distorter is in its prime in this earth? these are the questions that are relevant.
they answer depending on the user-friendly handling of the medium. is the medium kept in the correct moisture condition? do the remaining environmental conditions fit? does the grower have sufficient basic knowledge? The way the thread maker presents himself, I believe that everything is there ... the plants show a pronounced development, are fully on schedule, the nodes are sensible and the foliage is bristling with vitality. so assume in your answers that the grower is a good one ... no serious mistakes affect the reaction of the medium.
However, if you only wanted to lecture me in order to distinguish yourself, I would like to suggest that you create a thread ... we can then see what is behind it.
why do you think that the microbes only in organic soil and in aquaponics have an effect on the taste?
your knowledge is informative and correct in terms of content ... but explains reactions as they occur in every type of medium.
microbes is just an umbrella term ... including viruses, bacteria and fungi .... you have this in every form of medium in different proportions. For example, they have a better microbiological ratio in coco than in soil. this is confirmed by a better growth rate and thus better yield ... it is also scientifically proven. especially when it comes to the symbiosis with trichoderma, the coco is best. but let's not go into so much detail at this point ... it distracts from the actual topic ... which you unfortunately didn't give an opinion on.
that's why i ask you directly now ... because you get the impression that you understand something about chemistry ...
is the final theory of the thread starter correct or incorrect? can something like that happen in a 20 liter pot of bio-earth? is water with a high ph value automatically alkaline? is water that would be alkaline and the ph value is lowered to 6.5 still alkaline? despite the effects on the crystal lattice of the water? could I, poured it, drive the ph value in 20l earth into the alkaline ... if, in addition, a strong calcium distorter is in its prime in this earth? these are the questions that are relevant.
they answer depending on the user-friendly handling of the medium. is the medium kept in the correct moisture condition? do the remaining environmental conditions fit? does the grower have sufficient basic knowledge? The way the thread maker presents himself, I believe that everything is there ... the plants show a pronounced development, are fully on schedule, the nodes are sensible and the foliage is bristling with vitality. so assume in your answers that the grower is a good one ... no serious mistakes affect the reaction of the medium.
However, if you only wanted to lecture me in order to distinguish yourself, I would like to suggest that you create a thread ... we can then see what is behind it.
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Sunshineinabag
Active member
Teaching without being insulting 
InsaneMembrane
Member
Here are the test results of water after a dry & hot weather period:
pH: 7.5
General hardness: 8 dGH (144ppm)
Carbonate hardness: 7 dGH (124ppm)
my TDS pen shows me 140ppm right now, when I measured after the rains it showed 180ppm. I will test water again after a period of rain to see what changes.
pH: 7.5
General hardness: 8 dGH (144ppm)
Carbonate hardness: 7 dGH (124ppm)
my TDS pen shows me 140ppm right now, when I measured after the rains it showed 180ppm. I will test water again after a period of rain to see what changes.
Growenhaft
Active member
with this ph value that is inherently too little calcium. 1 ° dh = 7.14mg / l x 7 ° dh = around 50 mg / l calcium. your ec value should have a value of 0.45 for organic farming. with a cal / mag ratio of 3: 1
if your ec value increases due to rain, the assumption is that there is cement. because rainwater has an ec value below 0.05. this is an increase in base calcium silicates.
Calcium silicate have CaSIO³ our plants have to operate chemicals in order to convert this into Ca² + ... because in this form it can be absorbed.
The advantage of calcium silicate is the release of silica ... which they also absorb.
that is why the vitality of your plants has never suffered ... it is the only conceivable scenario where you can get all questions under one roof and match the overall impression of your plants.
you should have your water analyzed in the laboratory. i would take water samples before and after a long heavy rain. plus your tap water. have all of the water examined. it doesn't cost that much. then you will know exactly what your situation is. And maybe they can create a good mix of well and tap water. this is the safest way. overall, your water is very poor in minerals ... regardless of whether it is converted into ec on the 500ppm or 700ppm scale. clarify about laboratories for the aquarium hobby.
also have the water tested for silica ... it should be above average in this scenario.
I would like to repeat once again that this additional expenditure on the plant's own chemistry will have an effect on the aromas.
You should be able to perceive an increase in odor in your blood rooms for the next few days.
if your ec value increases due to rain, the assumption is that there is cement. because rainwater has an ec value below 0.05. this is an increase in base calcium silicates.
Calcium silicate have CaSIO³ our plants have to operate chemicals in order to convert this into Ca² + ... because in this form it can be absorbed.
The advantage of calcium silicate is the release of silica ... which they also absorb.
that is why the vitality of your plants has never suffered ... it is the only conceivable scenario where you can get all questions under one roof and match the overall impression of your plants.
you should have your water analyzed in the laboratory. i would take water samples before and after a long heavy rain. plus your tap water. have all of the water examined. it doesn't cost that much. then you will know exactly what your situation is. And maybe they can create a good mix of well and tap water. this is the safest way. overall, your water is very poor in minerals ... regardless of whether it is converted into ec on the 500ppm or 700ppm scale. clarify about laboratories for the aquarium hobby.
also have the water tested for silica ... it should be above average in this scenario.
I would like to repeat once again that this additional expenditure on the plant's own chemistry will have an effect on the aromas.
You should be able to perceive an increase in odor in your blood rooms for the next few days.
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InsaneMembrane
Member
Still waiting on the lab for precise Calcium and Magnesium values. Added 2tbsp of gypsum per pot 2 days ago and a guano tea, the leaf damage has completely stopped and the buds have started to fill in amd swell more.
Growenhaft
Active member
With plaster of paris you have added a lot of Ca ++ ions ... and a lot of sulfur to your medium.
My prediction that the smell will intensify will not come true.
It is a common mistake that we try to impose everything on the plant ... to protect it from all dangers ... in this way we curtail its freedom to react independently to situations ... to find solutions independently ... to do chemistry.
chemistry that will have a decisive effect on potency and taste.
please don't get me wrong. if wrong measures have been taken beforehand that require intervention ... because the environmental factors are slipping into the humane ... of course, the environment has to be right.
But all these little things that take place in the area of nutrient supply, you can confidently trust your soil life and the adaptability of your plant in organic cultivation with 20l pots and good soil.
you will always get better results than a helicopter grower.
think about why cannabis is so adaptable? It is your willingness to produce above-average chemicals and hormones in a very short time.
there are many growers whose results get worse and worse, the more they want to please the plants ... and do not see that this is exactly the reason why the first run without knowledge was the best.
They leave the plant no leeway to perform.
My prediction that the smell will intensify will not come true.
It is a common mistake that we try to impose everything on the plant ... to protect it from all dangers ... in this way we curtail its freedom to react independently to situations ... to find solutions independently ... to do chemistry.
chemistry that will have a decisive effect on potency and taste.
please don't get me wrong. if wrong measures have been taken beforehand that require intervention ... because the environmental factors are slipping into the humane ... of course, the environment has to be right.
But all these little things that take place in the area of nutrient supply, you can confidently trust your soil life and the adaptability of your plant in organic cultivation with 20l pots and good soil.
you will always get better results than a helicopter grower.
think about why cannabis is so adaptable? It is your willingness to produce above-average chemicals and hormones in a very short time.
there are many growers whose results get worse and worse, the more they want to please the plants ... and do not see that this is exactly the reason why the first run without knowledge was the best.
They leave the plant no leeway to perform.
