PH question

[growing]

I am new to hydro and I have a question. I am keeping the ph between 5.5 and 6.5 now. When I first put in a new thing of water for my setup I notice that the first several days the ph goes up steadily and I have to constanly add ph down to keep it in the 5.5-6.5 range. So what my question is, is if the ph got up to 7 or higher during the night could it cause the plants to wilt over as if they had not been watered. I am more used to soil and have not see this. I have corrected the ph and it looks like its starting to stand back up. Just curious on some outside input. Just fyi

Temp stays around 76-79 f
water temp set with heater at correct temp
ph 5.5-6.5

 

[Blackmelo]

yeah that is kinda normal.

As the plant sucks up nutrients, generally the reservoir becomes more alkaline and you need to check and lower ph constantly.

Don't know about the wilting look, but if it is looking better already that was probably the problem.

One thing to remember and maybe worth changing if this problem persists:

the bigger your reservoir, the less the ph will change over time and the less you will need to adjust it...

PS: 79 degrees fahrenheit is awfully hot i just realized. Stick to 70, 72 max in my opinion.

 

[10k]

moving thread to hydro forum

ps... melos right, your res is too warm

 

[Jesusbuiltmygro]

PH and the meaning of life

PH and the meaning of life

Let this be a lesson to thinking hydro is as easy as people say.

There is a lot more to PH then first meets the eye. Over at HG there is a great article by Big Toke called water chemisty.

The premise of this article is explaining how to mange water in a hydro system. The foundation of water management is your waters hardness.

So lets start there. Most water in the US is hard. This means it has some significant levels of calcium and magnesium. Most city waster is treated to be something like medium hard. You can guestimate your waters hardness by sampling it's PPM. If the PPM is 200 ish you have medium hard water. If it's 600 you have very hard water and may want to invest in an RO (reverse osmosis) filter.

The water hardness has several factors that determine it's buffering capacity. I'm not an expert on them so I'll just stick to what matters the most. Hard water has a beter buffering capacity for PH. Buffering capacity is just what it sounds like. It's is the waters ability to absorb PH down or PH up without the waters PH changing a lot. See, the same amount of PH down affects different water at different rates. There is no exact amount because all water has slightly different biffering capacity. Anywhere from making it almost impossible to adjust to making a tiny bit of PH down swing the PH wildly. Now obviously you want to find the happy medium there. You want some buffering capacity to keep your plants at a stable PH (because PH swings are actually stressful for yo uplant). Most hydro growers don't seem to know much about buffering capacity. They just adjust the PH endlessly and GO with it. This will work in most cases, but it's not ideal at all.

Now to your problem. The PH of your plant will always move toward the equilibrium point, which is the orginal PH of the water you added before PH down. You don't necessarily HAVE to get your pH all the way down to 5.5. most of the time anywhere in the range of 5.5-7.5 should be good enough. If you ride the 7.5 side all the time you may notice a greater tendency to certain nutrient deficiencies. However, none of these are likely to make you plant wilt. They will almost always just cause simple growth deficiencies like yellowing leaves or odd shaped leaves. This is no biggie and can be corrected after the fact.

If you waters PH was orginally very high and you have to add a lot of PH down then you have a large buffering capacity and this will likely be an ongoing problem. The other untold secret here is that PH down is not especially good for your plants. It causes a build up of phosphoric acid which can lead to algae growth among other things. Using too much PH down consistently will increase how often you will be forced to flush your rez.

It's it possible massive PH swing could slightly wilt your plant, but I've never seen it actually happen.

So you need to figure out whats driving the PH up. The most likely cause is the water you use. Test your source waters PH and perhaps re-post your problem with more detail. If your source waters PH is very high like 8.5 ish then the quick solution is to go buy some spring water and do something like a 50/50 mix in you rez. Spring water's PH should be closer to 7 which will bring down and help stabalize your PH at a more reasonable equilibrium.

However, back to PH buffering. Stuff like reverse osmosis and distilled water have little to no calcium and magnesium, making the water soft rather than hard. This also means distilled and spring water has little biffering capacity and this is why it may be better to mix it with your source water which is hard. If the water in your rez has little buffering capacity it will be easy to adjust, too easy. So much so that the you will have to correct it constantly.
If you are using distilled or spring water in your rez now this could be part of your PH fluxuation problem.

This is where having the right nutrients count. When you add nutrient to your rez water the PH should go down to a respectable level. Most nutrients are made for hard water because most people have hard water, however to complicate things some nutrients are not formulated for hard water, making the lives of those who attempt to use those nutrients with hard water frustrating. When you use nutrient formulated for hard water they regulate the PH for you, for the most part. Over time you will see the PH drift back to the equilibrium PH which is the natural PH of the water. As the plant draws nutrients out of the water, the water goes back toward it's natural PH.

So if you have no nutrients in the water this could be part of your problem. Even a light nutrient solution can greatly help regulate your PH. Unless the plants are still cuttings they can take some nutrients. Just ease on slow and shoot below the recommended dose to be same and then ease the nutrients up looking closely 48 hours afterward for signs of nutrient burn. This will be evident in the tips of the leaves turning brown and getting a little brittle. A little burn is actually not so bad, but overall I'd avoid it.

With expert water management you can run a DWC without ever flushing, but lets get back to the wilting.

I went off on PH because that's what you subject was about and so few people seem to understand the major factors at play in a hydro rez. Hydro is nice when it works, but unlike soil there are a lot of conditions that can throw it off and make hydro and endless hassle.

One of these factors is the evil bacteria pythium otherwise known as the cause of root rot. If your rez water temps are too high or lack enough oxygen your water will become a medium for pythium and other bad bacteria. These bacteria will feed off your plants roots killing them in the process. Rez water should always smell fresh. If your rez smells a bit swampy you MIGHT have the begining of root rot. If your rez has a slime coating anywhere or white or brown 'floaties'. You need to flush your rez immediately. I recommend throwing in some chlorinated water and a little H202 aka hydrogen peroxide.

Now keep in mind if your doing any type of organic hydro like bio bucket peroxide is a last resort, but bad water conditions is something you MUST stay on top off unless you like the idea of cutting most of your dead slimey roots off and nursing your plant an extra 2 weeks back to growing a root system. In large plants root rot can easily spell doom in smaller plants you can usually nurse the plant back by treating it with peroxide and removing the brown slimey roots.

So check your water, it should look and smell like a fast moving stream, not like mud puddle or swamp. If you think you could have unhealthy water conditions I'd recommend a flush and adding more air stones to your grow.

Hydro systems can benefit from mediums for beneficial bacteria to grow. In the Bio Bucket system for instance people use lava rock. I assume your running a DWC with hydrotron or some other clay pellets. These too will harbor the beneficial bacteria, just not as well as lava rock. The more porous the rock, i believe, the more surface area bacteria has to colonize. With the proper temps and oxygen levels the beneficial bacteria should regulate your rez for you even lowering the PH. Since most people want the PH lower this is ideal. Beneficial bacteria is also believed to take an important role in increasing your roots ability to uptake nutrients and thwarting common nutrient lock out problems. In any case beneficial bacteria certainly help growth rates and help you plant resist root rot and other water borne diseases. YES I know, none of this was a problem in soil.

The most likely causes of these problems are high water temps in your rez. Now your not gong to like this, but ideal hydroponic rez temps are around 68 degrees. The problem a lot of growers have is getting anywhere near these temps consistently. If you use any type of large light keeping water temps low becomes a major challenge and even the most veteran growers tend to eventually resort to an expensive water chiller to regulate their rez temps.

The poor mans solution is first well measure you rez temp. If it's like 75+ your cutting it close. If it's 78+ your probably at high risk of developing unhealthy water conditions. However, that being said you can run a successful grow with 80 degree water temps. You just can't control when and if bad bacteria enter your system. Keeping a very clean room may help. Don't leave decaying vegetable matter or stagnant water around. The first step is add more than enough oxygen as close as possible to the roots. If your doing DWC this just means perhaps get an additional air pump and maybe switch to better airstrones. Those cheap blue ones from walmart actually dissolve in water over time. Ceramic air stones are better. Bubble wands are probably better and I think some people use wooded air stones though I've never seen this.
You can freeze a 2 liter every night and add it to your rez as a poor mans water chiller. Even if you don't do it everyday it will still be better than nothing. Lower temps mean more dissolved oxygen at the rootzone and greater growth. So it's usually a win win situation to cool you rez. You definitely want the rez to be light proof. I use aluminiumized tape which is basically duct tape with a super thin layer of aluminium. If you go this route, don't buy it from walmart. If you get the cheap walmart kind (it's not really any cheaper) it's much harder to get the wax paper stuff they use to keep it from sticking to itself off. This tape is superior to duct tape in just about every way. It's about 7 dollars a roll, but you can light proof a considerable amount with it and of course there are no fumes or drying time to worry about. Plus your rez will look like a lunar lander when you done. Kick ass.
Light proofing theoretically helps to prevent unwanted growth by blocking light. In the case of algae it will certainly stop the development but I don't commonly have a real problem with algae in my area. The real benefit I feel is actually just as another angle of temperature control. Less light in the rez means less heat in the water.

If your growing under fluorescent lights water temps shouldn't be that big a problem unless you grow room is abnormally hot. I find I rarely develop any type of bad water conditions under fluorescent lights. Of course once again your source water comes into play. If you have well water your much more likely to develop a bacteria colony while city water has been thoroughly treated to avoid this problem. If you use city water you will need to let the water sit out for a night before you use it on your plants or use only a very little bit of it. A lot of chlorine in the rez will damage your roots though it bubbles out pretty quick it's still going to stress the plant. On the other hand chlorine helps stop algae growth, so a little bit can safely sanitize the water without destroying any beneficial organics your may have going on in there.

It could also be your not measuring your PH correctly or your PH meter is not accurate and thus your PH may be much lower or higher than you think.

Oh i missed this at the bottom of your post. You should ONLY have a heater in your rez if your cloning. Once your plants develop roots you no longer want to heat your rez as it will induce lower oxygen levels and almost certainly grow pythium or some other evil root eating slimey bacteria crap. Check your heater.. does it feel slimey? If so I'd flush and SCRUB the entire rez, heater, air stones. Maybe replace the air lines since they are cheap.

If your cloning still then you shouldn't be adjusting your PH. Instead use spring water for cloning or don't adjust or adjust a tiny tiny bit. You definately don't need a 5.5 PH to clone and in fact you'll almost certainly reduce your chances of cloning. However it sounds as if your trying to grow with a heater in the rez, which is definitely a no no. 76+ is exactly where you don't want to be thats high room temp there and perfect bacteria growth conditions.

If the water is slimey or the roots have brown spots on them. Prepared to fight pythium. You should post back if you determine you have brown spots on the roots or significant slime coating your rez. If so TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION. Flush the rez, scrub it, treat it with peroxide replace or thoroughly scrub the air stones and air line. Take your time an scrub well or buy a secondary rez. They are good to have for water changes anyway. Now literally remove any brown spots on the roots. I find a spraying them with something like kitchen sink sprayer works. you can cut them out if you think you can do so without killing all the other roots. Sometimes you can kind of dip them in water and gently pull the slime off with your fingers. It's kind of an aquired art, but I've beat many a pyhtium infections. Now add some peroxide to your rez water and put it all back together and make sure you have TONS of oxygen in that rez and get that damn heater out of there. also don't add nutes until you see healthy root growth again. Roots should be white and have plenty of little hairs comming off them. Unless you use liquid karma or something that stains the roots darker they should be bright white.

Unexplained wilting is a common sign of pythium infection, hopefully thats not whats going on. If so, it could already be too late.

 

[10k]

Excellent post Jesusbuiltmygro

 

[Hashish]

I've learned a serious amount from that post Jesusbuiltmygro all the answers in one place ,aswell this interested me because i have just lost a mother the exact same way Growing has described it without the heater though a lesson learned...thanks for this Jesusbuiltmygro and good luck with your situation Growing...Regards Hashish

 

[growing]

additional info

additional info

I need to clarify a few things. I have been using the liquid drops ph tester but have a digital one on the way. These are not freshly cut clones they came from the local cannabis club so already have roots. I originally bought 5 plants. 4 did really well the ak-47 is limping along the roots just have not grown since I got the plant but it's still hanging in there. As for the rez it's about 15gallons. I am completely switching out the rez water every 10 days. I don't know if I have to completely change the water or just keep it full so for now I have been changing it completely. I have like 6 air stones in the botton oxygenating the water. The roots are just hanging from netpots with clay pellets. I am using the biobizz line a nutrients except for the fish emulsion I already had that from a different company so I just used it. I am using the alg-a-mix in the solution. Right now I use tap water that I let sit for 24 hours before using. I have 2 rez's so i just fill the 2nd up with water wait 24 hours for the clorine to evaporate then add my nutes then from there I check the ph and get it within range. The plants wilted this time right when I switched the rez with the new water which began the movement of the ph up steadily over the next several days. I think the ph got too high over night and by morning I noticed it. So i checked and have corrected it. It looks like the plant is starting to stand up some of the others look like they got burned or show signs of deficiency from the ph getting out of whack. Anyone know of any automated system that can be used to correct the ph or is this just something you have to check every morning and night?

I will check the rez tonight for slime when I get home.
room Temp stays around 76-79 f
water temp set with heater at correct temp like 65-68
ph 5.5-6.5
high velocity fan to circulate air and keep temp down.
400 watt mh for veg closet
400 watt hps for flowering closet

 

[10k]

ok growing... now you're additional information is all over the place, and vague to say the least.
We need some more input describing the entire situation and your methods.

Why do you need a heater for the res if its sitting in the 79 degree closet, and how is it staying 65-68 degrees ?

Please describe your ventilation system ?

You mentioned you have a fan to circulate air and keep temps down...so do you have any ventilation bringing fresh air into the closet as the hot air is removed ?

Please explain more thoroughly how you're mixing and using the fish emulsion with the biobizz and the al-ga-mix (<- what is that btw). How are you formulating this concoction and what are you doing to judge the nute strength(s) ?

I'm guessing also since you are so vague... that you're running a dwc system since you mentioned roots hanging from netcups with clay pellets. So they're in a tub which you're calling your res... "with like six airstones bubbling" ? (clue me in here ok)

How far do these roots "hang" before they reach the solution, or how high up the netcups is the dwc water line ?

What color are the roots right now ?

These rooted clones that you received from the cannabis club...were they growing in soil or were they in a hydro medium like a rockwool plug or mini-cube ?

How big were they when you received them and how big are they now ? (just curious)

Now you're also saying outside of the wiltedness, that they look "burned" ?

arrrrgh... a few pictures would sure be useful ?

 

[ItsGrowTime]

He just said that 79 is the room temp, not res temp.

 

[growing]

Updating information

Updating information

Ok from the start.

I have a 15 gallon rez with 6 netpots in it, 5 in use. all 5 plants came from the club and where supposedly already rooted in rockwool. I have the heater because the guy at the shop told me I need to make sure my temp stays around 68 and it's the lowest setting on the heater. He says it's a problem around this time of the year, so bought it. the room temp right now is almost 76f. I took pictures and will upload them shortly. the ph is around 5.0-6.0 it's orange with a hint of yellow. using the liquid tester. another plant is drooping as if it's not getting water also now. uploading pics. current ec is 500-600 ppm. pics coming shortly. The water is almost touching the rockwool currently. The temp is probably more like 70 or 71 right now since I have to cut the heater up to 72 to get the light to come on. Tested my tap water the ph is high like 8.5 it's light bluish / green but mailly light blue. so I will need to add some spring water to the future mixes. I have a dropper and it doesn't take a whole lot to bring down the ph. I have had to put 3 or 4 droppers in though to bring it down from 7.5-8.0 to 5.5. Also you mention brown floaties. This fish fertilizer if dark brown and smells bad, After a couple of days the smell goes away but it always makes brown floaties in the water. like flakes of the fert it seems like.

 

[growing]

I currently have the water just below the rockwool I was having trouble with the ak-47 first and had to raise the water level a few days ago for it.

http://www.neptunesharvest.com/

BENEFITS OF FISH/SEAWEED 2-3-1 Neptune's Harvest Organic Fish/Seaweed Blend Fertilizer gives you the best of both products with a perfect blend of fish hydrolysate and seaweed, ensuring a complete fertilization program. Growers using our fish/seaweed blend fertilizer on a regular basis have reported increased marketable yields and improved shelf life on fruits and vegetables. Fish and Seaweed are known to build the
natural sugar in plants. Flowers and foliage will be stronger and more colorful. Blooms will be more plentiful, fragrant and longer lasting.

This is the veg fertilizer that I am using I asked the guy at the store and he said it should be fine.

http://www.biobizz.com


ALG-A-MIC®:

A vitality booster made with cold pressed concentrated Norwegian seaweed; hence it's extremely high content of trace elements and hormones of vegetable origin. Natural amino acids and vitamins are also added catering to the whole spectrum of the plants needs. Alg-A-Mic can be taken in by the leaves through means of sprayers as well as with water directly to the roots promoting vigorous green growth. Healthy plants are also less likely to suffer from deficiency diseases and temperature fluctuations. Alg-A-Mic may be used in all stages of growth and bloom.

Alg-A-Mic is available in the following quantities:
• 1 Pint
• 1 Quart
• 1 Gallon
• 2.5 Gallon (special order only)
• 6 Gallon (special order only)

was planning to add these two to the mix when time for flowering
BIO-BLOOM®:

A complete liquid organic fertilizer. Bio-Bloom contains a small amount of nitrogen and enough phosphorous and potassium to ensure exuberant flowering. Trace elements and hormones of vegetable origin are also added to improve the plant process itself. Bio-Bloom also contains enzymes and amino acids which work in harmony with the soil to promote flowering and fruit production.

Bio-Bloom is available in the following quantities:
• 1 Pint
• 1 Quart
• 1 Gallon
• 2.5 Gallon
• 6 Gallon

TOPMAX®:

A 100% organic bloom stimulant comprised of the pure essence of special flowers. TopMax stimulates the blossom cells and increases the transport of sugar molecules within the flowers creating an abundance of floral growth. TopMax also contributes to a soft sweet taste in the finished product. Although designed to be used with soil, TopMax can also be used with other soil less and hydroponic mediums.

TopMax is available in the following quantities:
• 1 Pint
• 1 Quart
• 1 Gallon
• 2.5 Gallon (special order only)
• 6 Gallon (special order only)


http://www.biobizz.nl/pictures/growpic.jpg this is the pic that was printed and given to me at the store for a nutrient chart.

the pics are still coming they are uploading still.

The setup is a closet with two sliding doors, both doors I keep in the middle. I have a floor fan from home depot that is a high velocity fan that whole closet's air is being circulated with the house air. There is air conditioning from the house blowing into the room with the closet. I keep the house around 70 or so to counter-act the heat from the lamp.

ok , the pics are up, let me know what you think.

 

[10k]

These are your roots right now ? :jawdrop:


Sorry to say, but it dont look very good there growing. Terminal imho.
Do the roots feel soft and slimey, looking brown and smelling foul ?

That res coctail for one thing, is a friggin nightmare, an organic hydro & chem mess imho, and way beyond rescue if those roots in the photo look as bad in real life as what I'm seeing in the photo.

I'll move this back to the infirmary and add some of your other photos.
You can try emergency measures and I'm sure many will try to advise h202 baths and some serious thoughts on what you ought to be using for hydro nute formulas, but in my humble opinion, it's time to re-evaluate your hydro grow plans and start over from scratch.

On some of the ones that fell over, do the stems seem soggy and mushy near those big wet rw cubes ?


I think I just threw up a little in my mouth

 

[growing]

The stems are dry and the rockwool also dry. I pulled the rockbud out and I could trim off the roots and just nurse them back to health. I will head to the store tomorrow and get and different type of veg fertilizer. So for my understanding are the root actually supposed to hang in the water or is just the spray from the water supposed to wet the roots?

 

[buckeye-leaf]

 

[10k]

Growing,
In a normal dwc the water line is first placed to a level just touching the bottom of the small rw minicube (yours look like 3 inchers arrgh) inside the growrocks, then once the roots grow into the rocks and begin their way out of the netcups, the level should be lowered to a level of about an inch or less of the netcup hanging into the solution. The rocks will wick sufficient moisture the rest of the way up to and including some moisture to the rockwool.
yes the roots should hang into the water and be well aerated.. not just barely aerated.

The rw in your pictures appears wet. I dont see how it would be possible for it to be dry like you're now saying. ?

Please answer the questions about the roots. are they soft and slimey ?

That res looks pretty damn nasty with that crap sludging around in there.
I dont see much areation going on either. dwc needs aggressive aeration.

 

[Azra3l]

Hello,

You're using bio bizz Alg-A-Mic in hydro ?!!! OMG !!! ....
Organic nutrients in hydro tend to ferment and lead to several infection of the root system. Sorry but you should start it all over again with a real mineral hydroponic nutrient or if you really wanna use organic use biosevia.

Anyway, you can throw away your plants...



Peace

 

[Blackmelo]

Hello,

You're using bio bizz Alg-A-Mic in hydro ?!!! OMG !!! ....
Organic nutrients in hydro tend to ferment and lead to several infection of the root system. Sorry but you should start it all over again with a real mineral hydroponic nutrient or if you really wanna use organic use biosevia.

Anyway, you can throw away your plants...



Peace

I could not agree more.

Start over and use hydro nutes.

I use Bcuzz as an organic hydro nute, but there are lots of organic hydro nutes nowadays.

Bio-Bizz is for soil only and will rot when left in water too long.

 

[growing]

Your not seeing the aeration currently in that pic is becauase of how the tubes run down, when we lift the lid the air stones come out of the water. There are 6 airstones. But basically I can't use these nutes for this, the are for soil only. That is what I have learned. I will go this weekend and buy some new clones and nutes and then get back with you to make sure I have this thing setup right. As far as the size of the cubes I have no control over that currently. I only know of 1 club that sells clones and all the clones are in cubes that size.

 

[growing]

yea the roots where kinda soft and a bit slimey, most of the brown stuff washed off but some is attached. I will just try my luck again with a new batch this weekend.

 

[growing]

I am wondering if we can be a bit creative. think it might be possible to just cut the veg on the plant/clone back some and just chop the roots redip it in rooting solution and then put it in a dome until new roots come back. And get new nutes for the rez in the meantime?