Ph problem?

[dvine]

Hello, first time i try hydro growing and here is picture of my current grow.

I'm not realy sure if its a ph problem or not but im gonna tell you what i have done.
I took RO water and added ph down untill it was 5.2, i let the water stand for mabye 2 days and re adjusted the ph.
I placed the 4*4*4cm rockwool cubes in the water and let them be there about 20 hours.
I took seeds and placed them in the rockwool cubes (the seeds was not germinated or prepared at all).
I placed the cubes in a candybox that i sealed with some plastic. For some reson I now tested the water the cubes had been in at it showed a ph on about 7.0
After a few days some of them came up and i placed them in net pots. In the netposts i had at the bottom 1 layer of clay pellets and i also sorounded the cube with pellets.
The water in the minibubblers are RO water with nutrients with a ec of 0.5.
The water lvl have touched the netpot the whole time.
The ph lvl have gone up the whole time so i probaly have adjusted the ph abuot 5 times aday (evry time i checked it was above 6.0 and i try to keep it at 5.7).

Any clue on whats going wrong?

 

[HeadyPete]

Rockwool is alkaline

and.....your nute ph will rise as the plants extract nutrients from it.

Check and adjust ph daily.

 

[dvine]

Rockwool is alkaline

and.....your nute ph will rise as the plants extract nutrients from it.

Check and adjust ph daily.

Thb, it sound like you read that from a textbook without knowing anythign what you just sad. First of all, rockwool is not alkaline, rockwool is neutral but residual lime left inside the fibers make it look alkaline. Ones the residual lime left inside the fibers are flushed out the rockwool is neutral. If i where to check my ph daily my ph would go up above 6.5 in just 12 hours and most likly all the way to 7 in 24 hours so you are wrong even there. Please don't say things you don't even know what they mean, might confuse and couse problems :/

Anyway, can it be that i have failed to flush the rockwool cubes and thats what causing the problems?

 

[MynameStitch]

Dude, petey knows a lot of stuff man and he is trying to help out, please don't talk to him like that :/



classic zinc deficiency going. Also never use RO water for seedlings, it lacks micronturients that the plant needs, use tap water for them. Putting seedlings into a hydrosetup like that asks for all kinds of troubles.
I would not have put them in there until they have roots poking out of the rockwool.
Get some micronutrients into them gals. First just use tap water if your water is not very soft.

2nd get some micronutrients 1/2 teaspoon per gallon and water your plants. Microblast has zinc.

You should not have to keep adjusting the pH like that, I am sure the constant pH down has caused a problem for them too.

Are you giving them any nutrients?
What is the pH of your RO water, if it's high then your RO water is NOT RO water......

 

[dvine]

The RO water have 0.00-0.01 ec and a ph around 7. I get the RO water from my RO machine that has 5 stages.
5 Micron
Carbon
1 micron
RO filter
Carbon

You say that RO water is bad for seedlings, what about if i add 50% strenght of "hesi grow" nutrient so that my ec becomes 0.50. Will that add the important micro nutrients? My normal tap water have a ph at 8.0 and thats the reson wy i use my RO water. My tapwater is concidered to be soft.

The roockwool cubes was soaked in pure RO water that had been ph adjusted.
After that i placed them in a minibubbler with 50% stenght nutrient.

Btw i have powerzyme, root complex and supervit handy if i need it now?!?

This time i was planing to try and place the rockwool cubes in a bed of perlite and then water them 1 time evry day, no minibubbler thing.
I plan to soak them in RO water that have 50% streght in it (more stable pH) and while they being soaked im gonna squize them fom time to time to realy get all alkaline juice out of them. Insted of soaking them in "ph adjusted nutrient RO water" should i soak them in "ph adjusted tap water"?

Edit/update:
I took 8L of 1 day old RO water and added 40ml rootcomplex(saw that it had alot of micro nutrientsin it) and 25ml hesi grow Then i ph corrected the water to 5.4. Ec on 0.50.
I checked the water where the rockwool cubes where in and it had a ph of 6.4.
Now i took the rockwoolcubes, squused out the water from them and placed them in the new solution in the new bucket.
I will let the cubes be in the solution untill my seeds have sprouted and are ready to be placed in the cubes.
How does this sound?

 

[HeadyPete]

I'm sorry, obviously judging by the incredible yield and quality of your finished crop you are an expert, so your thread here in the infirmary must have been a mistake.

Use in hydroponics

Mineral wool is used for its ability to hold large quantities of water and at the same time maintain a high percentage of air as well. This aids root growth and nutrient uptake. The fibrous nature of mineral wool also provides a good mechanical structure to hold the plant stable. Mineral wool has a high pH, which is unsuitable to plant growth. This requires correcting or conditioning.

Rockwool is made from spun basalt rock, which naturally is high in cal and mag, thus making it alkaline, not from "residual lime", as you claim, it is part of the natural chemical makeup of the rock.

Basalt compositions are rich in MgO and CaO and low in SiO2 and Na2O plus K2O relative to most common igneous rocks, consistent with the TAS classification.

So what I posted is 100% correct, not from a text book, from my head, and backed up with proof. BTW, if something "looks" alkaline, than it is alkaline.

I guess that's why they make this:

Europonic Rockwool Conditioning Solution adjusts and stabilizes rockwool pH for maximum nutrient uptake. A blend of pH controls and minerals for conditioning rockwool before starting seeds, clones, or transplants.

Again, since you are the smartass expert, good luck with your problems. I'll be sure to pass you over and save my valuable time next time you need help here.

Oh, this is your first hydro project.......... you got a lot of nerve for a noob

 

[dvine]

what i sad came from this page.
http://hydroponics101.com/graphics/hydroponics/Leaflets/L2007E_English_Water.pdf
however, i cant confirm that that is true so i kinda have to belive you both or something Sorry for being so blunt, your last post now made alot of sense tho but that don't help me much atm , Thanks alot for trying to help me tho!

 

[MynameStitch]

Divine, this is why you don't do this man, like I said I vouche for him, he knows his shit very well man and have NEVER seen him give out bad advice before around here when you do what you did, it is very much looked at and is serious, because it's like talking back to the elders or something.

Anyways man, take peteys and mine advice. I would not have used the grow, the plants have nutrients it needs in the cotyledons, but lacks certain micros for the plant which is why tap water is needed or you need to add micronutrients to the water.

Hopefully the grow will not have over loaded it and they will grow out fine, the yellowing veins is a zinc problem in the seedlings and as long as your nutrients have zinc and you control the pH of the rockwool the seedlings will grow out fine again.

 

[Weedhound]

Looks like youve messed up soaking your rockwool AND perhaps your hydroton as well from what I can tell. I didn't read every single thing in the post but if you can....go back and soak the rockwool iand hydroton in ph correct RO water until they measures out at the same ph. If you've already done something else then never mind.

Yes...that struck me as a little blunt myself.....especially when you went back admitted you took your answer from a "textbook" without really knowing if it were true or not yourself while getting on pete for what you felt was the exact same thing.

Instead of studying and analyzing every answer given to see if it's up to par for you I'd suggest finding someone you trust and follow what they tell you. I bet you learn a LOT faster than lobbing every bit of information (that you requested) back and forth like a tennis game.

 

[dvine]

I have lots of seeds so i can just retry over and over again, just need to find the correct way to make em grow. I followed your tip and resoaked one of the old rockwoolcubes and this time with the water that the new rockwoolcubes are right now in. When i read on the back of Hesi rootcomplex then it basicly only says that its alot of micro nutrients in it so i guess that should do it, right?.

Anyway i resoaked a cube and just have to wait and see if that does the trick
I will also try and soak some cubes in ph adjusted normal tapwater to see if that works.

 

[MynameStitch]

I am familar with Hesi nutrients, the root stimulater will work in the rockwool cubes. Hydroton will cause your pH to rise for a long time and you have to rinse it every now and then, only over time does it stop doing that.

I would not put seedlings that size in any hydroton yet, you risk damaging the tap root and you loose seedlings, that is one reason why you are supposed to wait when putting seeds into systems. I also would stay away from putting more than one strain in your system if it's hooked up to a res.

Are you going to keep those seedlings or kill them?

 

[upgradeshafted]

this thread is the very reason i dont like to try to help people much even when they ask

 

[Weedhound]

The best way to soak your stuff and make sure it's good is take whatever water you are going to be using for your grow,add your soak or whatever if you have something to add, ph it, put your medium in it and then check and adjust up to about 100 times a day for up to several days until it STAYS where you want it. This will apply to your hydroton as well as it tends to run in the 7's phwise until it is stable. Believe me by the time you have done this you will not only have the correct hydro ph tattoed forever in your brain you will also be all over it during the rest of the grow.

I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with the hesi root complex......perhaps Stitch or Pete is.
Are we talking about something to add the plants in the pictures? Or are you starting over with different seeds?

I would consider 0.5 e.c too high for plants of the age in your photo. I'd try to keep things at about 0.2. Also not familiar with whatever nutes you are using so will throw out that you may want to add Cal Mag to your regimen (not this second) if you are not using it already.

Ps....Too high an e.c. will also raise the ph of your plants (nuteburn) which might be what you are seeing as well......or a cool mix of all three.

 

[dvine]

i will keep them and try some experiments on them.
I took a candy box (just like the bubbelbox i was using) and driled some holes in the bottom of it. Then i filled it to 50% with perlit and placed the cubes on the perlite (some roots had came out, just barly tho). I did water the cubes and the perlite with the new "improved" nutrient solution.

I have altho started a new experiment, tomorrow my new seeds will have sprouted and are ready to be placed in the new cubes (using papertowel method).

I think i have seen on a movie or so that the roots should be fairly many and about 2in long then they can be planted into the real bubblers (thi was with clones), correct me if i remeber wrong.

I will only be using one type of strain, if i in the future decides to try another strain i will completly isolates its water from the other strains water.

 

[dvine]

Thank you Weedhound for your tips. To ph correct rockwool cubes to the right ph to a permanent ph lvl sound easy but wy don't the creators of rockwool preadjust it before they sell it then (sound like they selling a non finished product). I altho hope its possible to do as you say because then future growths will be started earlier by ph correcting the rockwool to a stable level.

The 0.5ec comes from hesis recomendations (50% stenght), i also belive i have read somwhere that the ec level are not always correct. For example, with one nutrient type the plants feels good at 1.0 and with another nutrient it gets burned at that level.

 

[libby]

dvine,

i have'nt been on this forum 2 minutes, and have recieved valuable advice from the person you had a go at, please, use your manners and a bit of common sense, do you want help, or are your trying to tell him something?

This sounded an interesting thread till you re-opened your mouth, iv'e lost interest now, can't do with ungrateful people, i will apologise to MNS for your ignorance!

 

[Weedhound]

Actually I'd love to know that as well....or why the makers of ALL the media don't ph it correctly first. Seems to be a business secret or something.

There are a couple good rules to follow in hydro imo. If you see a problem.....double and triple check your ph. Helps also to have a backup ph meter.....I am not kidding.

Second always treat an issue like overnute rather than undernute if you aren't sure what's going on. ALWAYS DILUTE your solution back until you can pinpoint the issue. Overnuting can kill your plants off MUCH quicker than some sort of deficiency will and diluting will simply highlight a deficiency problem further for easier diagnosis. There are very few quality fertillizers around that don't have everything you need in them if you follow the manufacturers instructions as far as mixing or making sure you use the entire nutrient line recommended (including CalMag for your RO water if you use it.)

All I can say about your e.c is that I feel my plants would fry at that number at that age. I go by ppms @ 700 conversion to keep track and mine wouldn't be over 200-250 ppms at that age.....including my CalMag....for an e.c. of about 0.3 MAX.

 

[MynameStitch]

3 most important things in hydro

water temps/ if using DWC or other setups, pH and PPM monitor them always and if you get them correctly in the right range you won't have your problems as long as you have a complete nutrient setup.

 

[dvine]

Still the same problem even tho i have added micro nutrients and changed the watersupply method. Please take a closer look on the one on the bottom left side. I have had the 250w hps grow bulb in a cooltube at 50cm distance.

I would like to add that i have the EXAKT SAME problem when i try to grow it in soil (i know stitch even has replyed to my post back then) BUT they have grown a bit better in soil so far (not good tho).

 

[MynameStitch]

It's going to take time for them to recover....... How much micronutrients did you add, and which micronutrients did you add?

Zinc is very easy to diagnois, because it's the only deficiency that causes the veins to yellow, where magneisum it's the opposite and the veins remain green.

If you have this problem in soil and use RO water and your soil mixture has high phosphorus levels, that is why your soil grows do this too. RO water should NEVER be used to water seedlings with, I just hope those are not toast or too late from the stress of this.....

Even though they have cotyledons to feed them, they still need the micros that is in the water....