pH keeps climbing WTF?

[spurr]

@ all:

Ideally water should have alkalinity of 40-60 ppm, too low (< 20 ppm) is just as bad as too high (> 100 ppm) in terms of pH dropping (no buffering), or pH increasing (too much alkalinity).

In order to determine the hardness and alkalinity of tap water, it is possible to consult the local water authority that is legally obligated to provide details of their analysis. However, it is important to realize that these values fluctuate from time to time, especially after rainfall in the region. Local fish stores offer very easy, relatively inexpensive colorimetric tests to gauge the hardness of your tap water with reasonable accuracy. And as I mentioned, hardness of water (total TDS) is mostly comprised of water alkalinity (level of bicarbonates and carbonates; mostly as Ca and Mg ions). Using the quantitative results from the water authority and the colorimetric tests (for hardness and alkalinity) is a good way to get the best picture over time.

 

[Scrogerman]

Hard water isn't what buffers pH, water alkalinity is what buffers pH. And water alkalinity makes up a majority of the TDS that is hard water. However, hard water is usually considered to be > 200-250 ppm, but high alkalinity is > 80-100 ppm.

Hard water and water alkalinity are not the same thing, nor do they have the same effect upon water pH, or pH of media (i.e. rhizosphere and "soil solution"; the thin layer of water surrounding media particles).


That is untrue. And it's not the hardness that effects pH per say, it's the alkalinity. Soft water doesn't have a pH of ~7, soft water simply means < 200 ppm. That's it. However, water with alkalinity of ~20 to ~80 ppm will have a pH of ~7. And water with high alkalinity, ex. > 100 ppm, often has pH over 7.

High water pH doesn't necessarily mean high alkalinity, but high alkalinity does mean high pH.


If pH is increasing that much he/she needs to reduce the alkalinity, not feed more, that's the culprit most of the time. Trying to continually reduce pH (via. some fert ions as EC that drops pH, or adding pH down) is only a band-aid to the problem; also, too high of an EC is bad, so it's not a good fix. To fix the problem filtering through plain s.peat to reduce alkalinity is the way to go. If alkalinity is very high, then mixing tap with RO (ex. 50% tap and 50% RO) might be needed to keep water alkalinity < 100 ppm.

No its the Carbonates KH(degrees hardness), dont even go there man~!
Its a Fact Hard water has better Buffering Capacity than Soft! where you wanna go next!

You may like to read the Link i put up & then get back to me bro!

You are right but are picking at straws!

respect!

Just because you drop the PH back down to where you want it to be with PH down doesnt mean the PPMs are at the correct strength! are you contradicting yourself! Anyway thats not the point of the thread is it. doesnt help the OP! if you wanna start getting tecnical on my ass fine! The OP doesnt suffer Lime scale so what your saying aint important! were not gonna know untill he has an EC reading on his source water cause he has NO EC meter! so we have to look at other things like Lime scale & PH & make an educated guess!! (In this case)
Just to point out i have soft water with a PH of 8.0-8.4, but i have a ppm of -120ppms, soft! is 200ppms soft?

Alkalinity in a solution means the solution is capable of buffering acidic solutions with higher concentrations of hydrogen ions. Alkalinity in water comes from a high concentration of carbon-based mineral molecules suspended in the solution. Water with high alkalinity is said to be "hard." The most prevalent mineral compound causing alkalinity is calcium carbonate, which can come from rocks such as limestone or can be leached from dolomite and calcite in the soil. Water treatment plants can be treated to a higher alkalinity. ​

Read more: What Causes High Alkalinity in Water? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5098791_causes-high-alkalinity-water.html#ixzz15SvsCJG3​

 

[spurr]

All you lads are confusing the OP, he needs an easy wasy to grasp the basics then go from there with the science!

The basics are water alkalinity is the main culprit, not water hardness. And to reduce water alkalinity filter through plain s.peat. That's pretty darn simple I think.

No its the Carbonates KH(degrees hardness), dont even go there man~!
Its a Fact Hard water has better Buffering Capacity than Soft! where you wanna go next!

Carbonates and bicarbonates are (mostly) what comprises water alkalinity, and water alkalinity makes up only part of water hardness. You are confusing the topics. Hard water doesn't have more buffering then soft, but higher alkalinity does have more buffering then low alkalinity; there is a distinct differentiation between the two claims.

Hard water is > ~200-250 ppm, soft water is < ~200 ppm; but that says nothing quantitatively about the alkalinity. Hard water doesn't buffer pH if water alkalinity is > 100 ppm, in that case hard water will increase pH, not buffer it. And likewise, soft water doesn't buffer pH if water alkalinity is < ~20 ppm, in that case soft water will have low acid neutralizing ability, thus water pH will drop and not be buffered.

And like I wrote, alkalinity is what makes up only part of water hardness.

You may like to read the Link i put up & then get back to me bro!

I will check out that link, thanks, but if that link states what you are stating then it's wrong too. This is basic water chemistry, and I'm not making it up. Would you like me to post a bunch of academic references? Forums are not the best places to get correct info, sad to say, but it's true. So often I see wrong info being written as fact, it's not your fault, you aren't trying to be wrong, but please have an open mind and consider what I am writing. I am correct.

I don't want this to turn into a back and fourth; I have written my peace.

 

[Scrogerman]

Read the thread, also says 140ppms+ is medium Hard! I trust BT's threads any day of the week!
Like i said i agree with most of what youve said anyway. But it dont help the OP's case much, i dont think the science of water chemistry is gonna help him much at this present time, but it might!

Peace Brotha!

let me know what you think about BigTokes Thread please mate! cheers!

like i said ive read it over 100 times & still counting!
What have you got on filtering water o through S.Peat please mate?

 

[spurr]

@ OP:

If you want to find out the EC (softness or hardness) and the water alkalinity of your tap water, you could do as suggested: call you local water authority and ask them for the test results. By law they have to give it to you, for free. That way you will know the average properties of your tap water, also ask them if they use chlorine or chloramines, just for you own edification (off topic to this tread).

Often the water authority tests softness/hardness via. TDS, not EC, so you can use the TDS datum instead of EC, or convert TDS to EC but you'll have to ask them what scale they used to find TDS for proper conversion into EC.

good luck!

 

[Scrogerman]

I'll put it here then. As i was saying i got a full chemical analysis of my water as im a paying customer. The Hydro shop wanted £45, what a joke! I pay for my water i should get it free, i called & got a Full one in 3 days! )(6 pages full analysis, in ppm & EC & everything in-between) K+ Spurr

if you'll out there didnt know your entitled to a full chem analysis off your local water Authority/Board as a paying customer-For Free. But these days alot of it is On-Line anyway!

Shit Spurr, you beat me to it!

 

[Thomkal Vwalaa]

@ OP:

If you want to find out the EC (softness or hardness) and the water alkalinity of your tap water, you could do as suggested: call you local water authority and ask them for the test results. By law they have to give it to you, for free. That way you will know the average properties of your tap water, also ask them if they use chlorine or chloramines, just for you own edification (off topic to this tread).

Often the water authority tests softness/hardness via. TDS, not EC, so you can use the TDS datum instead of EC, or convert TDS to EC but you'll have to ask them what scale they used to find TDS for proper conversion into EC.

good luck!

What about well water? I've found detailed city water reports, but not county (well water).

Total Hardness CaCO3 (ppm) 130 Erosion of natural deposits
Total Alkalinity as CaCO3 (ppm) 240 Erosion of natural deposits
Calcium (ppm) 25.8 Erosion of natural deposits

Does this mean my alkalinity is mostly due to Mg?

 

[Scrogerman]

well water you'll need to pay for an analysis bro & they aint cheap either! last i heard a few years back they wanted £45(UK)

Mg? those aint Mg sym's, Ca is calcium etc. CO is carbonate(CaCO3), oh i see what you mean, NO!

 

[Vdub818]

My tap water comes out at 63ppm and I get a rise in ph of about .2 or .3 every 12 hours. And thats running at 500ppm(hannah) strength or roughly .9ec. Just go add a couple drops of ph down (citric acid). And when I say drops,i mean go buy eye droppers from walgreens (glass) and be careful. So so strong. My first in dwc as well man, so far easy

 

[Scrogerman]

Citric ah, why do you use Citric acid in hydro man, just out of interest?

Nitric for veg & phosphoric for bloom would be nearer the mark, id of thought! hows stability? stupid question i suppose if your getting such a minor drift!

Citric for organics bro, ie-soil, i presume thats the newer Canna PH down your using there?

 

[spurr]

I have written quite a lot about citric acid, the main reason to use it in hydro, besdies to lower pH, is so it chelates P (phosphates). As we know, P is very susceptible to being made insoluble, thus it should be chelated. P is affected (made insoluble) more so than any other major element (i.e. N, K, Ca, Mg, S). P is on par with miconutrients in their susceptibility to being made insoluble.

IMO it's stupid that fert companies don't provide chelated P as they do with Fe, etc., most of the time anyway. Silly (fert company) rabbits, science ain't only for kids!

Of special worry is how Fe and Al will bond to P making it insoluble, that and water temp and pH of water are the other major factors making P (and other soluble ions) insoluble. Thus by using citric acid a chem grower is providing greater soluble P to plants for uptake, otherwise lots of P can be made insoluble.

Most cannabis ferts use chelated Fe and other micro's, but not always, and because P is so susceptible to being made insoluble it's wise to add citric acid, IMO.

Do a search for my nic and "citric acid" for lots more info I have posted on this topic. VerdentGreen made a thread in the organic soil section quoting many posts I made about citric acid, where I explained the benefits, etc., def. worth checking out.

I have found citric acid isn't the best pH down if the water alkalinity is high, but it's a good pH down, and P chelate agent. Citric acid can also chelate other ions (micros). Adding humic acid to hydro rez will also chelate P and micros, as will fulvic acid to a certain degree. Thus if hydro growers find citric acid isn't holding the pH low enough for a long enough time, they could use a mix of traditional chem pH down (like the Nitric you mentioned) with citric acid and/or humic acid (if pH drops to far using both forms of pH down). Humic acid also has many other benefits to hydro, such as increasing the transport of some ions into root tissue.

Oh yea, Humic acid isn't acidic, the term acid is kind of a misnomer and it doesn't refer to the pH of the humic acid liquid. Humic acid liquid is normally neutral or basic; if the pH is > 8 then the humic acid is of lower qutily (i.e. has more residual casutic soda). I use a humic acid with pH of 5.5-6. Once pH of humic acid (or the water it's in) drop below ~3.5 the humic acid will precipitate out of solution (i.e. become insoluble).

FWIW, when cannabis growers write "lockout" they should be writing "insoluble"; lockout is a misnomer and confuses matters, typical cannabis lingo fuc*ing up perfectly sound definitions and terms. Soluble ions are those that roots can take up and use, i.e., they are bioavailable to the plant (and microbes). Insoluble ions are those that are not bioavailable to the plant.


best, spurr

 

[spurr]

@ scrogerman:

I just updated my post above with more info about humic acid liquid, and why it's not acidic, or at most it's only weakly acidic, and how "acid" isn't referring the pH of the liquid.

 

[Vdub818]

Citric ah, why do you use Citric acid in hydro man, just out of interest?

Nitric for veg & phosphoric for bloom would be nearer the mark, id of thought! hows stability? stupid question i suppose if your getting such a minor drift!

Citric for organics bro, ie-soil, i presume thats the newer Canna PH down your using there?

Actually just checked the bottle and thought it was citric but I use viagrow ph down liquid. Meant for hydro and has sulfuric acid

 

[Scrogerman]

What about Phosphites(My nutes contain phosphites-VitaLinkMax)? & where did you get this info, i been doing hydro for a long time now & never heard about Phos having solubility problems(maybe i have but dont remember). Have you further info papers you can give me a link to. Im not sure im gonna change my ways just because you said do it. The Phosphoric acid i use gives added P to my nutrient soution. Never get P defs, like ever, so im not sure what your saying is relevent in my hydro solutions at all, my P seems just fine using what i do! I would be seeing a def of some sort surely?. do you think my plants will have greater access to P if i use Citric acid. Mmmm.???
I use Humic's & Fulvics btw.
(Convince me i might just give it a try! Thanks for your input man!
dam man, im gonna be reading up on P solubility now. We too easily trust what we buy & put in our Res's but theres a whole science to it._should of said chemistry), what about Phosphate build up due to using to much PH down for prolonged period without dumping? always a worry!(as in Too Much) another reason why Citric would be better! I just dont see it being anywhere near as stable, like you said i have higher alk water with a PH8.0-8.4.



Another Sulphuric user(V-Dub), fine i believe.

 

[Scrogerman]

I dont think it'd hurt putting in a small amount in my solution(citric), if its gonna help chelate P & make it even more available to my plants, i might just stick a little in, with my reg PH down(Phos 81%). Would this help the P solubility. How little would be good.? If it makes my buds bigger, happy days!

Its funny, i might be OK at growing Buds, been doing it for a couple of decades or so but start talking chemistry & my knowledge is limited but i endevour to learn as we all do.! This is why i give my hard earned cash to the likes of Canna & Hydrogarden, GHE, AN etc etc, they are supposed to have done all that bit for you, we should'nt ever have to bother worrying about P solubility.(the ammount of money we have to pay)

Anyway, wouldnt you see precipitation with this insolubility of P, if Fe & Al bond to it, its gonna drop out of solution? or am i wrong there? i dont get any precip! always keep an eye out just in case! Ive seen it happen though!

Ill say one thing, You certainly know your Shit Spurr, respect man! Im sure youve helped alot. k+

btw, i edited my post on the last page to include what causes Alkalinity, but im not going on about it, it may help others to understand ALK & PH -why etc etc. Carbonates are directly related to& cause it like i said!(what i was trying to get at earlier)Higher Alkalinity has better buffering, WHY? there is normally a reason why Hard water has better buffering capacity than soft, i see water like a sponge, the more carbonates the better the buffering cap.(soft water has not got more carbonates has it.) if you can enlighten me on this then great man. something i need stamping in my head. & more should think that way. if your not sure, instead of arguing, do your research! Help & Advise is always appreciated!

See, i neverhave issues with any of this so these tend to get put to the back of the pile, in a world (hydroponics) that is so big & with such a science behind it, sometimes its these little things that people dont bother with & they are so important!. Its then you see threads like HELP! i Have Problems!

Anyway what did you think of Bigtokes thread? a true mentor imo!

 

[highonmt]

I dont think it'd hurt putting in a small amount in my solution(citric), if its gonna help chelate P & make it even more available to my plants, i might just stick a little in, with my reg PH down(Phos 81%). Would this help the P solubility. How little would be good.? If it makes my buds bigger, happy days!

Its funny, i might be OK at growing Buds, been doing it for a couple of decades or so but start talking chemistry & my knowledge is limited but i endevour to learn as we all do.! This is why i give my hard earned cash to the likes of Canna & Hydrogarden, GHE, AN etc etc, they are supposed to have done all that bit for you, we should'nt ever have to bother worrying about P solubility.

Anyway, wouldnt you see precipitation with this insolubility of P, if Fe & Al bond to it, its gonna drop out of solution? or am i wrong there? i dont get any precip! always keep an eye out just in case! Ive seen it happen though!

Ill say one thing, You certainly know your Shit Spurr, respect man! Im sure youve helped alot. k+

Why on earth would you add citrate to your hydroponic nutrients if you don't have trouble with P solubility now look at the concentration of Fe, Al, etc etc compared to phosphate in your solution. You would see micronutrient def long before you'd see P problems if your metal salts were not well chelated. The only reason these commercial solutions work so well is they include well designed mixtures with well chelated metal salts. If your iron etc are chelated they will not precip as a phospate salt. If your pH and concentration are in a reasonable range you should never see precip. Adding citrate to your solution as a chelating agent would only make sense if you were mixing your own or wanted to use incompatible products even then mutli dentate chelating agents are commercially available. Citric acid is relatively weak with a pka of roughly 3.13 so it is a weak choice for pH down; phosphoric has a pka of 2.15 nitric -1. It's a logrithmic scale so phosphoric is 10x stronger. The bonus of phosphate and nitrate as your counter ion is that they are plant nutrients and bioavailable. If you are worried about the chelation of the P salts in you solutions call the chemists who made it and ask them a bit about the chelating agents they employed. A little chemisty knowledge is dangerous I've been a professional chemist for 15years and I'm amazed at the notions some people claim are great ideas. Spurrs no offense intended it is just not benificial to chelate something that is readily bioavalible and solubilized. Scrogger think about it a minute...
HM

 

[Scrogerman]

this is a point Im trying to understand man, my brain is telling me it may have more validity than first meets the eye/brain!

Thats the problem i already did & cant see any issues but a positive adding a small amount of Citric. what do you think its a bad idea or gonna cause other issues. the man made my brain tick on this one, but it may be unfounded, if so, enlighten me bro. you know your shit too. A good if not great thing! we are all looking for ways to improve the availability of elements in our hydro solutions afterall!

The only thing i can think of is Citric Acid is actually an anti-bacterial(believe me it is), but like using phosphoric in organics(in soil etc) the ammounts used are completely harmless to Microflora, so its niether here nor there & possibly a beneficial, & may improve P uptake by your plants. see where im going with this bro?

I believe 3mls per litre of Phosphoric Acid will only make Microflora Dormant, it doesnt kill them contrary to beliefe, i believe Citric the same because of its anti-bacterial properties. ammounts used are insignificant! (3mls in 1000 is a massive amount) & that dont even kill microflora!(Phosphoric yeah!)
My info on that came from Grapeman btw, a commercial grape farmer i believe(think)

 

[highonmt]

this is a point Im trying to understand man, my brain is telling me it may have more validity than first meets the eye/brain!

The only reason to chelate metals is to keep them soluble thus bio available. The metals known to form insoluble salts are chelated in all good hydroponic ferts, thats why these deficiencies are not seen much in hydro anymore. Citrate is a natural metal chelating agent it is is added to some hydro solutions but why do you need it if your metals are already chelated? Here is a link that helps explains chelation http://www.jhbiotech.com/plant_products/chelation.htm Phosphoric acid works great and improves phosphate concentrations...great for flowers, nitric for veg adds nitrate. And treat that micro herd well...my farm is strerile so I'm not worried about that sort of farming.


HM

 

[kstampy]

This is normal for ph to go up, from what I understand they like the swing in ph anyways. It would usually take 3-4 days for my 40gal to go from 5.5 to 6.1 then I would top off and re-ph. If you are using hydroton that also will help ph jumps in my experience, you can clean that stuff 50 times and it will still put out a pound of clay powder a week later I hate it lol.

 

[Scrogerman]

I dont think ALL elements are chelated in nute lines are they. all im thinking is if citric acid will further help ill add a bit. what you think its not nessasary? Ive never seen a def to date concerning this issue anyway. Like i said earlier its irrelevent in MY Hydro solutions"! But absolutely anyway we can improve uptake of Nutrients & im into considering it! do you get me bro! I wont even buy a product if it hasnt Chelated EDTA Fe etc! Thats what i was saying all the Lines that Canna Hydrogarden AN etc make these days are fine. I never see any Precip.

Hydroton needs a bloody good soak, then wash, then soak then wash, then its fine, been using the stuff for years"! Clean as Fk as long as its treated right! Not a Single visible particle in my Res man!