pH in organic growing

[PazVerdeRadical]

verite, i think the idea behind the original post is that organic soil mix is by nature of a neutral pH. in reality, unlike sproutco's theory (and even Jorge's opinion), organic mass properly mixed to be used as gardening soil, acts like the earth, it has the ability to transmute organic elements and charge them with its own properties, weren't this so, composting would simply be impossible.
of course, if one were to add organic mass not properly composted (too raw to put it simply) this would affect the pH; but this is not done by organic growers who know what they are doing; considering that if you compost well all your ingridients, you can rest assured that your organic soil mix will keep a stable neutral pH. same applies when we are adding humus at the right ratios as well as teas such as banana peel teas.
there's a rule in organics growing that i took to heart, which is to start low when it is time to fetilize, as well as compost well. by slowly adding ingrients to your soup, it is very difficult to throw off your pH to a point where it becomes a problem for the plant.
i've been growing outdoors and in pots too, and if you grow in pots, you have to be extra careful, because as verite correctly pointed out, there's a limited ammount of earth-like conditions which are not able to absorb over-dosis.
peace.

 

[Devilock]

My mistake guys. I went back and read it over. Jorge was talking about hydro organic. I didn't realize it. Sorry bout that. Peace and *bong* :friends:

 

[Verite]

I have just one question for the nay sayers in this thread...

Have you ever tried what I'm saying here or are you relying on your own or someone elses theory?

...this is not ment to be a debate. I'm just passing on some tried and proven facts. I didn't invent this stuff.

Burn1

I think you have it somewhat backwards. Most people here are using tried and proven factual botanical science. You are the one using your own tried and proved to yourself theories that have no science or facts to back them.

When one of the number one issues with indoor growers is medium and ferting ph levels and easily proved time and time again to help the novice understand their issues and botany in general, to say it doesnt make a diff and just use acidic materials with humics is imo just plain bad advice.

 

[sproutco]

Humus is pretty neat in that it chelates divalent ions like magnesium, calcium, and iron allowing more plant uptake at different ph's. What about potassium? It is monovalent so it would not be chelated and plant uptake drops with a higher ph like 7 probably because of all the calcium and magnesium that becomes available at that ph. You would have an ion competion with magnesium and calcium winning where positive ions would compete like picking colored marbles out of bag. Calcium and magnesium would be the majority of the marbles and potassium would be the least. The result would be a potassium deficiency.

 

[filimagno]

quality on organics harvest proves the rules that burn1 try to explain...sproutco if u want to debate about fried air i think this is the baddest place.

there's no possibility of K lock or stop for the reasons burn1 means.

1st..the buffering agent as stones (zeolite,dolomite and others)

2nd the colloidal potency of the humates

and 3rd the carbonates are presents in the organics convertion can buff the ph by sobstitution in the ratio of ions and cations.

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the pH meter made more mistakes than benefits promised!!!
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the EC meter don't measure nothing apart the minerals already converted in the solution

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sproutco ....follow the advice of burn 1....try an easy organic method who bring a complete aND powerful shield to ur plants ....and after came here with the results and compare with a real diplomacy.
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i've noticed potassium deficency only with biobizz fertilizers....and i've seen ph fluctuation only when the pot are going dried for mistake for a day...and when u water it return all normal.

peace ...fili

@burn1...cool post dude...let the people now open his eyes

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

My mistake guys. I went back and read it over. Jorge was talking about hydro organic. I didn't realize it. Sorry bout that. Peace and *bong* :friends:

oh good to know, i thought that the world had gone mad for a moment thanks for rectifying. peace!

 

[BurnOne]

I think you have it somewhat backwards. Most people here are using tried and proven factual botanical science. You are the one using your own tried and proved to yourself theories that have no science or facts to back them.

When one of the number one issues with indoor growers is medium and ferting ph levels and easily proved time and time again to help the novice understand their issues and botany in general, to say it doesnt make a diff and just use acidic materials with humics is imo just plain bad advice.

Then do this...

Try it.

 

[sproutco]

Don't get me wrong...I love the idea of using chelates like humus for growing. I use edta chelate for my growing with micronutrients in my soilless media containing composted pinebark. (I guess that makes me an organic gardner because it contains carbon) The point of the story is a good one in that with the humus chelates elements in a wide range of ph's unlike other growing. You would have a wider range of ph's growing. I don't think I would throw away my ph meter just yet though.

 

[Suby]

When one of the number one issues with indoor growers is medium and ferting ph levels and easily proved time and time again to help the novice understand their issues and botany in general, to say it doesnt make a diff and just use acidic materials with humics is imo just plain bad advice.

God forbid anyone have a discussion that involves people who have some real insight and knowledge with regards to organic gardening.
Our ancestors grew vegetables and other crops without the aid of a ph meter, they followed simple rules, they used their knowledge to compost, fertilize, worm farm, etc.
That's why we are into organics, it requires some skill and some feel for experimentation, it's easy but requires some faith because little or no real research is shared on this site mostly hydrostore talk.
B1 is stating fact pure and simple, that nature is superior to a bottled fert and that the best things in life are sustainable, the fert companies have everyone believing that quality comes only from a lab, using something measured and guaranteed rather than trusting in some organic soil mixing with renewable, compostable, and reusable soil results.
Do you think 3LB could recycle their soil repeatedly without ph being buffered by the composting of their soil?
B1 keep kicking it oldschool.

S

 

[Guest]

Then do this...

Try it.

 

[Verite]

I would but to put any science behind it I would have to plug in my ph meter which I havent use for over two years.

Why? Because Im dialed in and my methods work absolutely fine for me because I know exactly what ferts increase and which ferts decrease my base ph and by how much. No guess work needed or hoping that just winging it and my use of humus is going to prevent an issue or make it any easier to solve when one happens.

Which reaffirms my point, just because you have used a method [ that for one you have barely explained in any detail that can be used by others to begin with ] to success doesnt mean its good advice for the novice grower to use. When conventional growing methods and scientific facts back my growing opinions I dont see where my burden of proof is needed.

Considering Im the only one I know that has successfully used the same recycled medium for ten plus years running just by refreshing it with a quart of dirt and a quart of worm castings every crop [ for each 5 gallon bucket ] I would put that experience and knowledge up against anyones sucessful guesswork anyday.

 

[Joe Blow]

I ran my first run with no PH pen and had stellar results. Then I bought a PH pen and have had nothing but crappy harvests. I think it has something to do with the EJ PH Up/Down. I quit adjusting this run and things are already looking much more like the first run. My yields dropped around 50% when I started adjusting. I grow in Sunshine Organic Blend 50/50 with FF perlite. Biggest waste of $100 I ever spent. Anybody wanna buy this POS?

 

[sproutco]

^^ Pick your best plant...Your perfect plant...measure ph and then in the future you will know what ph to shoot for with crappy plants. I know that with my growing that 1/2 ph point makes a huge difference.

 

[filimagno]

I would but to put any science behind it I would have to plug in my ph meter which I havent use for over two years.

Why? Because Im dialed in and my methods work absolutely fine for me because I know exactly what ferts increase and which ferts decrease my base ph and by how much. No guess work needed or hoping that just winging it and my use of humus is going to prevent an issue or make it any easier to solve when one happens.

Which reaffirms my point, just because you have used a method [ that for one you have barely explained in any detail that can be used by others to begin with ] to success doesnt mean its good advice for the novice grower to use. When conventional growing methods and scientific facts back my growing opinions I dont see where my burden of proof is needed.

hi verite ...great point of view!!! it's very interestant to learn and appreciate the help on check ur pH value...as i've do it for a couple of years with minerals...and is a good teacher for ur knowledge on plants health and physiology...but like the lesson of hydroponic tell to us:there's no possibilities to let the same conditions as the soil micro an macrolive can work with.
SO..IN HYDRO TESTS THERE ARE'NT THE SAME CONDITION OF EXCHANGE AND CONVERTION...AND THE FACTORS ARE DIFFERENT LIKE THE WAY PLANTS IT SHOWN HIS SIGNALS OF DEFICIENCY OR EXCEEDING.

but the way of discussion is focused on the elevation FROM LEARNING Ph LESSON AND AFFIRM THE NATURAL WAY TO WORK WITH.
JUST LIKE A GOOD "TAKE OF POSITION" ...I REPEAT: "MIND ELEVATION"

1ST LEARN THE LESSON...AND THEN FORGOT IT!!

@JOEBLOW...100dollars wasted...what u'r talkin about? the pH meter pen?

 

[organic1]

Most organic mixes with dolomite lime are not apt to have problems as long as all the other things are also in line. I have grown for some years, and have had very few problems growing indoors, except when things would get a tad warm. Recently I moved, and although my growing substrate has not changed (Sunshine Organic mix), other things have. The tap water ph here is high, and I did not check it earlier on, and to keep things cool, I have been using the AC, and early seedlings began to suffer after about 3 weeks. RH was about 30%, and the water runoff ph was approaching 8. After buying a fogger and using some ph down I have managed to bring the plants back from a lack of K and serious leaf claw. EJC also helped in regard to K and helping to bring the ph down.....Just my experience.....The plants are Suges Pure Kush x Lep Kush/NL, and it now looks like I'll have some decent plants come flower time

I also don't understand comments about how buying a ph kit would make your plants turn out worse? Could you elaborate? They make these items to help people grow, how they could be to blame for plants not turning out right is beyond me....Unless of course the ph pen was not calibrated right......

 

[sannie]

All talking about mother nature.

Rainwater has a ph around the 5.5-6.0.water that growers using has a ph off 7.0-8.0.
Rainwater also does not content calcium.

greetz sannie

 

[Suby]

Organic 1

-ph pens can't hurt if used right, some don't calibrate or use a cleansing solution and others adjust the solution to far down or up and adjust the other way which is shit.
-hard water (well or tap) buffers better than purer forms of water, see BigTokes sticky on water chem.
-1/2 point isn't worth toying with ph IMO

 

[Guest]

Drifting ph is a good thing? Use acidic water is ok? What books on botany employ those methods?

Yes, yes...and I don't need a botany book, thank you very much. It's called experience.

In case you missed the point of the thread to begin with...I'll try to make it clear for the ones that like to give out smartass remarks instead of actually reading and understanding what others are trying to say.

When growing in an organic medium...the ph will always balance out, give or take a few points. So if some elements are available in higher quantities at different ph levels....then when you allow the ph to drift back up after feeding...the elements that are released more readily at lower levels, become more available to the plant as it drifts back up. I'm not talkin about a ph of 4 or lower when you feed...but I thought that should be understood without having to mention it.

Not everything you learn is from a book. Common sense and a little hands on experience can go along way for some people.

Cheers,
SH

 

[organic1]

Points taken Suby.....:wink:.....water out of the tap IS better, just a tad too high at 8.2. Runoff is at 6.4 now, pretty much where I'd like it at this point ....

 

[Suby]

nice O1, oh and I've heard wicked good things about the organics sunshine organic mix.