passive plant killer

[delta9nxs]

I think the need to switch off pH starting points vs simply starting below 5.8 and letting it climb depends heavily on the alkalinity (buffering capacity) of the water source. The tap water at this location has low alkalinity, but apparently not as low as yours. I typically see the pH climb just a few tenths over the life of a res. Knowing exactly what can be expected from the water supply makes this all much easier to accomplish.

yeah, with flora nova bloom my ph is 6.1-6.4 with ro water the next day no matter what my input, so it doesn't hurt to start really low. there was a guy over at gc named misterito, another og refugee, who argued for 5.2 fairly convincingly and then i found a research paper from turkey about greenhouse tomatoes and they are running 4.2-4.6 successfully in perlite continuous drip. so maybe there is more than one "band" in the ph scale where nutes become available.

it's amazing how often there are statements made like:

"so and so nutes work great with tap water", or how "ro water is inherently unstable for ph purposes".

which tap water? what nutrient at what concentration?

oh, yeah, i've got an interesting chart depicting nutrient antagonism and stimulation reactions. i'll try to find it.

 

[turbolaser4528]

Are the bulbs stacked, one on top of the other?

Vertical + coco = forgiving. So depending on your skills and the environment, etc, in my experience, 32 zips from that setup was the baseline, 100% coco, top fed, obviously not the PPK. Bloom at 18" tall. Do not top them.

That baseline first vert / coco grow included both some pH mismgmt. and a lack of a direly needed AC during the first 3 weeks of bloom.

Yields have only gone up from there.

cool, na not stacked, 2 600w hps' in a 4x8' area. sounds good, looking to do the ppk to get optimal moisture content in coco, plus its simple, cheap, and apparently very effective.

I just wonder how long I can make the coco sump/wick, it seems easier to just run a 1" or bigger nylon/polyester rope for that.

You know what I mean? I like the idea of the media wick, but is it worth it, or am i just as good with some cheap rope from home depot?

Basically, I wonder If I can make the sump like 12" long so I can just sit a lowe's grey bucket on top of a tote with the sump extending down into solution.

http://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/1309/3c473d89-4637-4f04-9257-604251a986fc_300.jpg

 

[delta9nxs]

Turbolaser quote: “cool, na not stacked, 2 600w hps' in a 4x8' area. sounds good, looking to do the ppk to get optimal moisture content in coco, plus its simple, cheap, and apparently very effective.

I just wonder how long I can make the coco sump/wick, it seems easier to just run a 1" or bigger nylon/polyester rope for that.

You know what I mean? I like the idea of the media wick, but is it worth it, or am i just as good with some cheap rope from home depot?

Basically, I wonder If I can make the sump like 12" long so I can just sit a lowe's grey bucket on top of a tote with the sump extending down into solution.”

hey, turbohead! Look at the turf tech now ad on page 5, post 62. they show a wick being used as a drain only. They recommend a vertical drop of at least 9”. it basically just functions as a rapid eliminator of the pwt.

if you are going to use a wick for water and nutrient supply the distance or air gap between the bottom of your growing container and the top of your solution should be no more than 1” initially. It will fall from there between waterings. Better yet a controlled level at around 1” with a float valve. By controlling the water level and the air gap you control the moisture profile in your medium. Some fluctuation is good. I've been letting mine fall 2” lately with no ill affects.

I show my media sump/wick going down almost to the bottom of my res, but that really is a fail safe measure to insure the plants get some water in the event of an unplanned or protracted absence.

Rope, because of it's tight, twisted structure, will not move more water than the same weight of a fabric like acrylic or polyester. And a 1” rope will not move as much water as a 1” media wick, especially a coco one. I now have 9 media wick only plants growing fine. 3 are in flower. I really believe that you get a better moisture profile with a media wick.

Also, almost all the research papers suggest a water depth of no more than 6”.

I think what we have got here is a little confusion about the differences between my method and the method mistress uses. Both are valid methods but are functioning on slightly different principles. Her method is closer to the earth box and earth tainer designs, which both allow and even promote roots growing down into the res and the airspace above it. Her design also allows ambient air to circulate around the air type roots that grow down into the airspace above the solution.

My design is very controlling of the manner in which the roots can even grow. I do not allow roots into the res. I almost totally control evaporation and the type of root development.

Hers is called by researchers an “open” sub-irrigated system and mine is called a “closed” sub-irrigated system. The turf tech now system is not a sub-irrigated system at all. It is just wick drained.

My design will not work properly if it is not built close to spec. mistress's design is more forgiving as far as allowing more leeway from design. Either will work on it's own but I suspect combining them or altering them significantly could result in failure.

I hope this helps, d9

 

[turbolaser4528]

thanks man I appreciate that response. I had a bad cal/mag and underwatering issue that was startin to really piss me off haha I will take your recommendation on the media wick.

I bought the parts from blowe's already, I do have a question though;


The 6" of solution in the bottom of the bucket holding container (tote, bin, whatever) stays there and is just diluted when more solution is added? Do you top off with plain water or adjust ppm, or do you just add whatever ppm solution your feeding with?

I guess at the end of the flowering cycle you dump the remaining water out or just let the plant dry out and use it up pre-harvest?



It does seem a media wick will work very well, and I need that as I have 3 plants ~24" tall in 2 gal pots that are needed daily waterings, I have to flip them soon and get them in a ppk.

They dry out 1 hour after a heavy watering lol under-potted and the drainage is too good!! Once I get the moisture profile dialed as well as the cal/mag issue resolved I think I will have some fantastic results in coco, as it shows great potential as a medium. Thanks again for all your help man!!

 

[delta9nxs]

“The 6" of solution in the bottom of the bucket holding container (tote, bin, whatever) stays there and is just diluted when more solution is added? Do you top off with plain water or adjust ppm, or do you just add whatever ppm solution your feeding with?

I guess at the end of the flowering cycle you dump the remaining water out or just let the plant dry out and use it up pre-harvest?”

hydroponic greenhouse professionals use the term “steering” frequently to describe how they control tds and ph in their solutions.

You monitor tds and ph and adjust your solution strength accordingly.

For example, you've been inputting 750 ppm at 5.8 ph. You check and find your tds over 1000 ppm and ph has dropped to 5.2-5.4. so you input 600 ppm at 6.2. or thereabouts. It mixes with the remaining solution in your res and reaches what is, hopefully, an acceptable compromise.

Conversely, you check and find your tds has dropped to 500 ppm and ph has climbed up to 6.5-6.6, you input around 950-1000 ppm which also will ph below 5.8 with flora nova bloom.

It is a highly subjective process that you have to figure out for yourself using your unique combination of water, nutes, light, r.h., and so on. A process of observation and correction. This is how I grew #1 with no run off or water changes. Sometimes using a low nute concentration, sometimes a higher one, and sometimes just plain water.

There are those growing hydro that use add back formulas, but i've found I can do it by reading my solution and my plant and get away with it. This does not mean that this is ideal, just that it is possible.

One thing about the ppk that i've enjoyed is the fact that these changes don't happen very fast and when they do happen it doesn't seem to affect the plant as much as maybe a dwc setup or some other form of active hydro.

i'm editing this to say that there is nothing wrong with scheduled change outs if you grow a better plant with it. you will have a more balanced solution. that's why when i link mine together i'm going to install a drain system. belts and suspenders again.

 

[turbolaser4528]

Ah I gotchya, this will be much easier with my hydro knowledge, im so used to adjusting ppm, ph, etc. on the regular.

I thought runoff readings were very misleading with coco?! (according to Canna and others)


Anyway, I think I will stick with canna coco A+B nutes for now since I bought them already (even though I have FNB on hand as well) and just add some cal-mag+ to obtain a ppm ~700 in veg going up to ~11-1200 in flower on a .5 ppm conversion. (1.4-2.2 ec for you euro dudes out there

I can't wait to get the moisture level, and these new nutes dialed in a bit cuz I'm gonna grow the shit out of these plants hahaha im lookin forward to seeing your connected ppk design 2.

I may opt for seperate ones right now just to get the hang of it but we shall see...

 

[Darth Fader]

Delta, can u check a pic for me? I've got some kind of deficiency I'm guessing. pic here.

 

[delta9nxs]

Ah I gotchya, this will be much easier with my hydro knowledge, im so used to adjusting ppm, ph, etc. on the regular.

I thought runoff readings were very misleading with coco?! (according to Canna and others)


Anyway, I think I will stick with canna coco A+B nutes for now since I bought them already (even though I have FNB on hand as well) and just add some cal-mag+ to obtain a ppm ~700 in veg going up to ~11-1200 in flower on a .5 ppm conversion. (1.4-2.2 ec for you euro dudes out there

I can't wait to get the moisture level, and these new nutes dialed in a bit cuz I'm gonna grow the shit out of these plants hahaha im lookin forward to seeing your connected ppk design 2.

I may opt for seperate ones right now just to get the hang of it but we shall see...

hey, i don't know anything about canna nutes, but they are supposed to be very good.

i think run off readings are pretty much useless with any substrate, but especially ones with a high cec. i check the res before and after watering.

i just got all my shit in so i'm about to start the linking. i will then have to learn how to control all of them together from one point. it's going to be a little different.

i will have 2 systems though, 1 for veg and 1 for flower.

it would probably be best for you to run them singly at first as it will give you an idea about what's happening in the reservoirs at different stages of growth.

are you going to run perpetual or do a unit grow?

i don't think you are going to have any trouble with this set up because of your previous experience. this is very similar to running an active hydro grow only easier to manage.

 

[delta9nxs]

i finally found the chart. this is called mulder's chart after dr. d. mulder, a soil scientist, who first published this in 1953.

i've got other charts and graphs depicting the same info but this one really helped me visually.

 

[LJB]

that's heavy.

 

[delta9nxs]

medium heavy. it would be nice if someone with a good drawing program could make us a color, enlarged version.

 

[delta9nxs]

here's one i can post. for some reason i couldn't post the pdf. probably operator error.

 

[turbolaser4528]

hey, i don't know anything about canna nutes, but they are supposed to be very good.

i think run off readings are pretty much useless with any substrate, but especially ones with a high cec. i check the res before and after watering.

i just got all my shit in so i'm about to start the linking. i will then have to learn how to control all of them together from one point. it's going to be a little different.

i will have 2 systems though, 1 for veg and 1 for flower.

it would probably be best for you to run them singly at first as it will give you an idea about what's happening in the reservoirs at different stages of growth.

are you going to run perpetual or do a unit grow?

i don't think you are going to have any trouble with this set up because of your previous experience. this is very similar to running an active hydro grow only easier to manage.

hmm, true true i like to run perpetual all the time, I'm too impatient otherwise haha I like to have bushes vegging and ready to go while I harvest a good bumper crop, always makes me smile


that diagram is blowing my mind

 

[LJB]

if you google search "mulder's chart" there are a few versions that pop up

 

[delta9nxs]

yeah, i like the old "weekly harvest" schedule. i've always got one ready to whack. it also breaks down the work into smaller, more manageable parts. trim time tomorrow again. #4, also turface. next week i've got the 70/30 perlite/coco plant. it's a whopper. funny thing about me and perlite. i grow some big plants in it but they always look like shit. tip burn at the same dose as everything else and none of the others have it. 8 weeks of plants in different mixes after that. i have 4 in 100% coco now. 6 weeks until we see the root ball of the first all media wick plant.

turbo, i've been meaning to ask you about turning the plants. i've always done it. usually, about a 1/3 turn a day. you made a comment earlier about not turning the plants. could you explain your reasoning on that? i've been thinking about doing one sided growing, that is with the plants trained to the side facing the light. like a vertical scrog maybe.

i started building my new veg area in another room. i've had some kind of virus and haven't got much done. i built a 7x7 frame and lined it with a 20 mil pond liner and a ripstop tarp on top of that. i'm going to run a bare bulb there as i have some room to move plants around.

the flower room will be larger now and i won't have to worry about hermies because i'll have no light to leak through the panda film barrier zipper door piece of shit that i have to repair daily. that mutha is getting ripped out.

flowering wattage upgraded to 5k from 3k, all cooltubes.

well, that's the "weekend update". i'll try to post some pics tomorrow.

 

[LJB]

I am against rotating the plants too.

Let the "front" develop with a more constant rate of photons instead of turning and trying to promote even growth around the plant. The girth of the "front" should more than make up for it. The "back" will do what it do.

If I even do as much as move the plants out of order (and they're in a circle) late in bloom in the VSCROG room, this new (and subsequently spindly) growth pops up.

 

[delta9nxs]

I am against rotating the plants too.

Let the "front" develop with a more constant rate of photons instead of turning and trying to promote even growth around the plant. The girth of the "front" should more than make up for it. The "back" will do what it do.

If I even do as much as move the plants out of order (and they're in a circle) late in bloom in the VSCROG room, this new (and subsequently spindly) growth pops up.

that makes sense. the plant is so phototropic. i don't know where i got the idea to turn them. probably in one of the old books by some grow guru. usually inaccurate.

i have been thinking of ways to "force" train them to one side during veg and stretch. with the new lights i'll be able to hit all plants in 12/12 with 2 1k's simultaneously except for the first week. right now i can only hit four out of nine with 2k. i have to compensate by physically moving them through positions in the room week by week.

 

[LJB]

that makes sense. the plant is so phototropic. i don't know where i got the idea to turn them. probably in one of the old books by some grow guru. usually inaccurate.

I think those gurus were trying to accomplish a light mover without buying or building one. And the light mover is one of the biggest scams in indoor growing history. If you can't afford more light, than use a smaller grow room. People such as VerdantGreen, that yield huge amounts of high quality bud from one 250w bulb, make a mockery of those things. Even if yield isn't a primary goal, than movers are still a waste. Save the money spent on buying/building and powering it and just add more light for crying out loud!

(end rant)

 

[LJB]

i have been thinking of ways to "force" train them to one side during veg and stretch. with the new lights i'll be able to hit all plants in 12/12 with 2 1k's simultaneously except for the first week. right now i can only hit four out of nine with 2k. i have to compensate by physically moving them through positions in the room week by week.

not enough space or light to veg them vertically?

 

[delta9nxs]

i still intend to veg vertical. i'm thinking of something that compresses the foliage into one vertical plane. this would allow more budsites equal opportunity for light.

you know how in a regular scrog you train from under the screen. i guess what i want is a method of flattening the plant into a vertical plane without the hassle of working through a screen. maybe a trellis?