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passive plant killer
- Thread starter delta9nxs
- Start date
MedScientist
Hydronaut Ganjaneer
I have grown in Coco/Perlite mix with the top drop (1min/5min), no wick. It grew a very nice plant, but there was a slight bug factor (dont like em).
I have found the 8822 very close by, and am considering it, but since you have not tried it yet, I'm cautious.
John Deere, in Michigan has switched to GameSaver (turface by Profile), but the only info I found on the web was someone compaining it was fine, like powdered sugar?
Thank you for the turface finder link, I see it might be available about 45 minutes away. Which is not out of the question, if it means the best option.
What are your thoughts? Sorry, I am a pain sometimes, but I am not trying to get you to do my work, I really am busting my arse!
i have been coco free for about 2 weeks now, have done no treatments, and the gnats are disappearing. i'll probably wait another week and do a bomb routine.
i see no reason the #8822 should not work amended with about 25% perlite but i have not tried it personally yet.
the turface mvp product is the one you want because of texture and particle size. the #8822 picture put up by snook a few pages back looks to be about the same size.
http://www.hhydro.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1 these people sell rice hulls really cheap.
MedScientist
Hydronaut Ganjaneer
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! I found the Turface MVP about 45 minutes away, and will probably go pick it up tommorrow @ about $12/50lb. This round I will ammend w/perlite, but everything else will be copy and pasted!
I am also setting up the same system for a new student and look forward to taking most of the Human error out of the process.
I am also setting up the same system for a new student and look forward to taking most of the Human error out of the process.
MedScientist
Hydronaut Ganjaneer
I picked up 500 lbs of Turface MVP, that was a fun ride home!
I snapped a few pics last night of the Runt Strawberry Cough Plant. She was too big for the veg area before flip, so she spent a couple weeks next to the 8 bulb t-5's (50/50 blue and red tubes). She grew towards the light, almst at 90 degree angle, so when I 1st put her into 12/12, I positioned her on her side to continue growing upward. Then recently, I stood her back up and pushed her close to the 1000w HPS.
She is doing GREAT with the 24/7 air driven drip (spider column feeders) from her solo res beneath. I am very impressed with the Budz all the way down the plant. Even though I plan to copy more closely in the new (not built) set-up. I will probably run this system again with the 3 to 1 Turface/perlite.
Here is a shot from above to show how she is growing. I did add 1/2 dose of Liquid Kool Bloom twice in the last 2 weeks. I wish I had 2 of these contraptions (identical) going so I could know if the large Budz are from the nutes, or just from the contraption itself?
Peace!
I snapped a few pics last night of the Runt Strawberry Cough Plant. She was too big for the veg area before flip, so she spent a couple weeks next to the 8 bulb t-5's (50/50 blue and red tubes). She grew towards the light, almst at 90 degree angle, so when I 1st put her into 12/12, I positioned her on her side to continue growing upward. Then recently, I stood her back up and pushed her close to the 1000w HPS.
She is doing GREAT with the 24/7 air driven drip (spider column feeders) from her solo res beneath. I am very impressed with the Budz all the way down the plant. Even though I plan to copy more closely in the new (not built) set-up. I will probably run this system again with the 3 to 1 Turface/perlite.
Here is a shot from above to show how she is growing. I did add 1/2 dose of Liquid Kool Bloom twice in the last 2 weeks. I wish I had 2 of these contraptions (identical) going so I could know if the large Budz are from the nutes, or just from the contraption itself?
Peace!
T
the_baked_chef
If you use rice hulls and turface for a media - how can there still be a wick effect? Aren't both materials unable to hold (or draw) water?
Is there a significant difference between grain hulls and rice hulls (other than origin ^^), because in europe i won't get any rice hulls - probably...
Is there a significant difference between grain hulls and rice hulls (other than origin ^^), because in europe i won't get any rice hulls - probably...
d9, I apologize for any misunderstandings on my part and I hope you can see where I was coming from, if not, just don't hold a grudge. I know I tend to butt-heads with those I have a lot in common with even when I don't intend to do so. I'm very interested in much the same things you are and I don't feel there should be any hard feelings because we have different hunches.
I do hope you make a very simple thread of how to create the "new PPK" system because a lot of my confusion which led to frustration was there being various systems with the same name. More importantly, I think such a thread will really help many people grow trees. I'm still very interested in theories myself, although I'm going to limit myself to what I'm currently working with.
An epiphany of new questions slowly came to me as I had wondered how you would describe what you have learned/solidified since the beginning of this thread from mistakes/counter-intuitive findings. I'm not going to quote myself, but I do believe I have previously written about some conceptual understandings that jive with your recent changes (more like reverted-revisions) you have made. To begin, you obvoiusly stumbled upon a way to dramatically increase your yield and it seems to me the single most significant factor for this was using a defoliating technique. The pulse "plunger" theory is a good one and if it has had positive effects, surely they are maximized by using a medium like Turface with so much capillary capacity. I'm happy to see you are done with coco as I personally never want to deal with the problems inherently associated with it (the bugs, calmag issues) and all the contamination that could come from a grow-store. I've seen Turface and other mediums recently being brought up by growers in many places and it was definitely you who introduced it into the cannabis world which has got people thinking. Having learned about how some plants move water around in soil through hydraulic redistribution, how this process takes place differently through dry and wet seasons, how it works from pressure inside the plant regulated by water "sweating" from leaves called transpiration, how transpiration takes place at night; I had become less focused on manipulating soil and water mechanics to achieve a consistent and sufficient (but not excessive) moisture profile because nature has already adapted to doing this. What really got me thinking is why did defoliating, which decreases transpiration, have such a profound effect on yield. Transpiration increases with increase temperature, light intensity, wind speed, and with lower humidity levels. I've seen many arguments, but have been thoroughly convinced that growing with C02 allows higher temperatures for greater growth, relativity high humidity with enough air flow to avoid mold allows for greater growth, and light intensity is fairly straight forward aside from any controversy indirectly related to temperature, humidity, and perhaps defoliating. I have a suspicion that there is something about what you are doing that allows defoliating to be very effective, but I haven't been able to put my paw on it yet. Does growing with low humidity as you have positive effects because of how it moves the moisture profile around? According to fore-mentioned theories, I believe it would, but then why does lowering transpiration through defoliating have such a positive impact? Desert plants have adapted to reduce transpiration by having less surface area on the foliage because of shortage of water in desert climate, which they do not have in your system. Do we get higher yeilds from a plant that believes it has a shortage of water, do we get lower yeilds, or does it not matter? I don't believe I've seen significant differences such as with defoliating in yeilds from a constant drip, pulse feed, or watering once every so many days. Some say allowing a medium to dry out is good becuase roots will move to find new water (and more roots are good) while others never want a medium to dry out to prevent the ramifications from over fertilizing a plant. Does water culture not out yield any medium based method of growing? I believe it does. Hempy buckets might be effective because they should never dry out and won't suffocate the roots from gases. This leads me to think you don't want roots to ever be without water, but yet many growers have success waiting to water until the medium is bone dry. Given defoliating seems to be best done during certain periods of growth, maybe more thought should be given to how we water throughout the plants life cycle. Anyway, food or maybe poison for thought.
*mistress* - I was wondering if you knew where one should look for agricultural grade pumice?
MedScientist - nice pics! I'm curious about the details of your air-driven pump setup. Also, I know d9 recommends a low ratio of perlite, but I don't think we've seen anyone do say 3:1 perlite:turface. Do you plan on screening the MVP's smaller particles out?
I do hope you make a very simple thread of how to create the "new PPK" system because a lot of my confusion which led to frustration was there being various systems with the same name. More importantly, I think such a thread will really help many people grow trees. I'm still very interested in theories myself, although I'm going to limit myself to what I'm currently working with.
An epiphany of new questions slowly came to me as I had wondered how you would describe what you have learned/solidified since the beginning of this thread from mistakes/counter-intuitive findings. I'm not going to quote myself, but I do believe I have previously written about some conceptual understandings that jive with your recent changes (more like reverted-revisions) you have made. To begin, you obvoiusly stumbled upon a way to dramatically increase your yield and it seems to me the single most significant factor for this was using a defoliating technique. The pulse "plunger" theory is a good one and if it has had positive effects, surely they are maximized by using a medium like Turface with so much capillary capacity. I'm happy to see you are done with coco as I personally never want to deal with the problems inherently associated with it (the bugs, calmag issues) and all the contamination that could come from a grow-store. I've seen Turface and other mediums recently being brought up by growers in many places and it was definitely you who introduced it into the cannabis world which has got people thinking. Having learned about how some plants move water around in soil through hydraulic redistribution, how this process takes place differently through dry and wet seasons, how it works from pressure inside the plant regulated by water "sweating" from leaves called transpiration, how transpiration takes place at night; I had become less focused on manipulating soil and water mechanics to achieve a consistent and sufficient (but not excessive) moisture profile because nature has already adapted to doing this. What really got me thinking is why did defoliating, which decreases transpiration, have such a profound effect on yield. Transpiration increases with increase temperature, light intensity, wind speed, and with lower humidity levels. I've seen many arguments, but have been thoroughly convinced that growing with C02 allows higher temperatures for greater growth, relativity high humidity with enough air flow to avoid mold allows for greater growth, and light intensity is fairly straight forward aside from any controversy indirectly related to temperature, humidity, and perhaps defoliating. I have a suspicion that there is something about what you are doing that allows defoliating to be very effective, but I haven't been able to put my paw on it yet. Does growing with low humidity as you have positive effects because of how it moves the moisture profile around? According to fore-mentioned theories, I believe it would, but then why does lowering transpiration through defoliating have such a positive impact? Desert plants have adapted to reduce transpiration by having less surface area on the foliage because of shortage of water in desert climate, which they do not have in your system. Do we get higher yeilds from a plant that believes it has a shortage of water, do we get lower yeilds, or does it not matter? I don't believe I've seen significant differences such as with defoliating in yeilds from a constant drip, pulse feed, or watering once every so many days. Some say allowing a medium to dry out is good becuase roots will move to find new water (and more roots are good) while others never want a medium to dry out to prevent the ramifications from over fertilizing a plant. Does water culture not out yield any medium based method of growing? I believe it does. Hempy buckets might be effective because they should never dry out and won't suffocate the roots from gases. This leads me to think you don't want roots to ever be without water, but yet many growers have success waiting to water until the medium is bone dry. Given defoliating seems to be best done during certain periods of growth, maybe more thought should be given to how we water throughout the plants life cycle. Anyway, food or maybe poison for thought.
*mistress* - I was wondering if you knew where one should look for agricultural grade pumice?
MedScientist - nice pics! I'm curious about the details of your air-driven pump setup. Also, I know d9 recommends a low ratio of perlite, but I don't think we've seen anyone do say 3:1 perlite:turface. Do you plan on screening the MVP's smaller particles out?
T
the_baked_chef
@zeke99: Thanks for clearing that up.
Seems i misread and assumed the turface to be equivalent to perlite.
I read a little more about the rice hulls and am now convinced that i can't simply take grain hulls or something - so i will probably just try another medium.
Which would you suggest:
100% coco (no name - from cocofiber blocks - pretty rough)
75% Coco 25% Perlite
or
50% coco 25% perlite and 25% vermiculite (chunky)
As fertilizer Flora nova bloom is my first choice (can't get Jack's here)
and its going to be a one plant micro scrog more or less identically to Old One's (respectful bow to the Old One's [grow]) but with a "smart pot"-ish pot for the plant.
Just have to sex those stupid HawaiixMauiWaui and get the flower chamber going ^^
Seems i misread and assumed the turface to be equivalent to perlite.
I read a little more about the rice hulls and am now convinced that i can't simply take grain hulls or something - so i will probably just try another medium.
Which would you suggest:
100% coco (no name - from cocofiber blocks - pretty rough)
75% Coco 25% Perlite
or
50% coco 25% perlite and 25% vermiculite (chunky)
As fertilizer Flora nova bloom is my first choice (can't get Jack's here)
and its going to be a one plant micro scrog more or less identically to Old One's (respectful bow to the Old One's [grow]) but with a "smart pot"-ish pot for the plant.
Just have to sex those stupid HawaiixMauiWaui and get the flower chamber going ^^
I picked up 500 lbs of Turface MVP, that was a fun ride home!
I snapped a few pics last night of the Runt Strawberry Cough Plant. She was too big for the veg area before flip, so she spent a couple weeks next to the 8 bulb t-5's (50/50 blue and red tubes). She grew towards the light, almst at 90 degree angle, so when I 1st put her into 12/12, I positioned her on her side to continue growing upward. Then recently, I stood her back up and pushed her close to the 1000w HPS.
She is doing GREAT with the 24/7 air driven drip (spider column feeders) from her solo res beneath. I am very impressed with the Budz all the way down the plant. Even though I plan to copy more closely in the new (not built) set-up. I will probably run this system again with the 3 to 1 Turface/perlite.
Here is a shot from above to show how she is growing. I did add 1/2 dose of Liquid Kool Bloom twice in the last 2 weeks. I wish I had 2 of these contraptions (identical) going so I could know if the large Budz are from the nutes, or just from the contraption itself?
hey! glad you were able to locate the turface. i like that plant!
Catman! welcome back, brother!
as this thread is 2 years old now and many plants have been grown by an ever increasing number of people i feel that we are past the "theory" stage.
it is basic human nature to want to reduce something to it's individual constituents in order to understand it.
however no one thing is totally responsible for the yield increases you have seen here.
you mentioned defoliating, for example. i do not feel that it is responsible for a large increase, just a small one.
most of the gains in yield are due to maintaining a nearly perfect environment in the root zone by maximizing the interface between water, air, nutrients, and roots. and proper room conditions.
this device is proven at this point. small refinements are still being made but there is no single factor responsible for it's success.
i see my role at this point as being a facilitator for those wanting to build and operate one.
i am feeling better every day and i am finding less and less time for online activities but i will still do what i can to help those who want to build.
well, glad you came back. i felt bad about the way things went the first time around.
d9
as this thread is 2 years old now and many plants have been grown by an ever increasing number of people i feel that we are past the "theory" stage.
it is basic human nature to want to reduce something to it's individual constituents in order to understand it.
however no one thing is totally responsible for the yield increases you have seen here.
you mentioned defoliating, for example. i do not feel that it is responsible for a large increase, just a small one.
most of the gains in yield are due to maintaining a nearly perfect environment in the root zone by maximizing the interface between water, air, nutrients, and roots. and proper room conditions.
this device is proven at this point. small refinements are still being made but there is no single factor responsible for it's success.
i see my role at this point as being a facilitator for those wanting to build and operate one.
i am feeling better every day and i am finding less and less time for online activities but i will still do what i can to help those who want to build.
well, glad you came back. i felt bad about the way things went the first time around.
d9
Last edited:
the rice hulls are unique because of the 19% silica content and the higher lignin to cellulose ratio. this minimizes the tendency to decompose.
i grew some of the largest plants in pure coco. of the choices you have presented 3/1 coco/perlite would probably work the best.
there is a turface like product mined and processed in germany but i can't remember the name of it.
doesn't Haifa Chemicals make a version of the jack's formula? i started with flora nova and found that it clogged lines. i would think the gh 3 part would be a better choice.
good luck!
T
the_baked_chef
delta9nxs said:
Thank you very much - I already wrote to some of them. Fantastic information. I didn't think that we would process rice here in europe ^^
delta9nxs said:
Do you by any chance mean hydroton- they are fairly easy to get here. I never thought those could hold water but apparently they can and i will have to get me some - if it's what you meant
)So maybe it will be a mixture of hydroton (the big chunks) and the small perlite? (or rice hulls if any of the suppliers i wrote to will send to a small customer like me)
delta9nxs said:
I don't know about Haifa Chemicals, but i have read of the FNb's tendency to clog before and therefore chosen a very big diameter line from my reservoir.
But i will of course consider switching to FN 3 part (as the new 2 part isn't here yet)
Thank you very much for your information and time
)edit: I did consider switching and decided to switch to FloraBloom and Micro (16 -8-> Lucas style) - thanks again
Thank you very much - I already wrote to some of them. Fantastic information. I didn't think that we would process rice here in europe ^^
Do you by any chance mean hydroton- they are fairly easy to get here. I never thought those could hold water but apparently they can and i will have to get me some - if it's what you meant
So maybe it will be a mixture of hydroton (the big chunks) and the small perlite? (or rice hulls if any of the suppliers i wrote to will send to a small customer like me)
I don't know about Haifa Chemicals, but i have read of the FNb's tendency to clog before and therefore chosen a very big diameter line from my reservoir.
But i will of course consider switching to FN 3 part (as the new 2 part isn't here yet)
Thank you very much for your information and time
edit: I did consider switching and decided to switch to FloraBloom and Micro (16 -8-> Lucas style) - thanks again
hey, i definitely did not mean hydroton. it doesn't wick and won't hold water.
all turface comes from a single arcillite clay deposit in Georgia and i mean the us state of Georgia not the country. i read somewhere that there is a similar deposit in Germany. i'll look for it.
Snook
Still Learning
Thank you very much - I already wrote to some of them. Fantastic information. I didn't think that we would process rice here in europe ^^
Do you by any chance mean hydroton- they are fairly easy to get here. I never thought those could hold water but apparently they can and i will have to get me some - if it's what you meant
So maybe it will be a mixture of hydroton (the big chunks) and the small perlite? (or rice hulls if any of the suppliers i wrote to will send to a small customer like me)
I don't know about Haifa Chemicals, but i have read of the FNb's tendency to clog before and therefore chosen a very big diameter line from my reservoir.
But i will of course consider switching to FN 3 part (as the new 2 part isn't here yet)
Thank you very much for your information and time
edit: I did consider switching and decided to switch to FloraBloom and Micro (16 -8-> Lucas style) - thanks again
I would agree that Nova is thick and clumps up.. I use it for (as everyone here does) veg. before the Jacks is implemented. I didnt think rice was grown here in Florida either and I find 10,000 acres of it a couple hours away, thanks to D9.. I couldnt find it. I would think that Peters Corp would ship the Jacks to Europe. Shipping might be high but the Jacks is under $50 for 25lbs of it.. I did lucas, PPK and Jacks is better, but lucas formula works well too. I bought a gallon at a time of bloom and after 4-6 months, it developed a white cloud in it, twice. GH sent a replacement, free, first time, second time I went to Jacks+. GL, either way. By the way, I dont think hydroton wicks water as high as turface/floordri, or cocco, although it does 'hold' water well.
T
the_baked_chef
@delta9nxs: Could you possibly mean pumice?
I found a store that sells it and they claim that it could store 45% of its volume in water (2gal pumice should hold roughly 1gal water).
Also it can be found in germany - so i thought it could be the right stuff.
If it were - would you still use any perlite (or rice hulls). I mean it already is a pretty similar stuff to perilte isn't it?
Which size of pumice would you prefer? They have small (1-4mm), medium (4-8mm) and large chunks (8-15mm).
@Snook: I asked them whether Jack's could be purchased in Europe but they told me that this was at the moment not possible. But GH florabloom + micro is quite accessible here so...
I found a store that sells it and they claim that it could store 45% of its volume in water (2gal pumice should hold roughly 1gal water).
Also it can be found in germany - so i thought it could be the right stuff.
If it were - would you still use any perlite (or rice hulls). I mean it already is a pretty similar stuff to perilte isn't it?
Which size of pumice would you prefer? They have small (1-4mm), medium (4-8mm) and large chunks (8-15mm).
@Snook: I asked them whether Jack's could be purchased in Europe but they told me that this was at the moment not possible. But GH florabloom + micro is quite accessible here so...
i didn't mean pumice but now that you mention it pumice could be a good choice. it is very stable, both chemically and physically.
i think i would use the small size as it's similar to turface. i've never tried it but you could get a small amount and do a rough air porosity test on it first. and maybe a capillary rise check too.
but, like perlite, it is basically volcanic glass and won't have a significant cation exchange capacity. therefore you may want to add something that does to the mix.
my philosophy on container media is that it is the mechanical properties that are most important. after that chemical reactions. use the materials around you. there are probably things available locally to you that would function well.
i'm enjoying the turface/rice hull mix. i still haven't treated for gnats and they are disappearing on their own.
gregor_mendel
Active member
@D9
What is the outside diameter of the surgical tubing you use?
I have a dive shop nearby that has slings made from something black and rubbery - I don't know if it is latex or not.
But it's O.D. is almost 1/2 inch.
If it doesn't matter, though, I will use it.
What is the outside diameter of the surgical tubing you use?
I have a dive shop nearby that has slings made from something black and rubbery - I don't know if it is latex or not.
But it's O.D. is almost 1/2 inch.
If it doesn't matter, though, I will use it.
hi, gregor mendel! welcome!
these people ship fast and are really cheap.
for the 1/4" od drip tubing i used item # st-316. for the 3/8" od tubing i used item # st-516.
what you are seeing in the dive shop is speargun rubber. it is latex but way more heavy duty than needed.
the items i listed above are both 1/16" wall thickness and are sold by the inner diameter, not the od.
http://www.4fishin.com/surgical_tubing.htm?gclid=CIW25YHQhqoCFUGF5godX1H-zg
