passive plant killer

[TheMonarch]

I would have never thought of using thin-wallpipe, even though I almost built that exact system ~8yrs ago. The weight of the turface and plant had me worried, so I hadn't decided how that connection was going to be made yet or whether a support frame was needed.. I also thought the size of the ?sump? pipe might already cause problems, so the hole in the cap will be larger than 1/2". I'm going to build one tonight and see how the parts fit together. Your design works great for large plants, but I'm still searching for a 'keeper'.

 

[delta9nxs]

"I would have never thought of using thin-wallpipe, even though I almost built that exact system ~8yrs ago. The weight of the turface and plant had me worried, so I hadn't decided how that connection was going to be made yet or whether a support frame was needed.. I also thought the size of the ?sump? pipe might already cause problems, so the hole in the cap will be larger than 1/2". I'm going to build one tonight and see how the parts fit together. Your design works great for large plants, but I'm still searching for a 'keeper'."

you've grown in turface before? with 2 liter bottles you won't need much of a hole at all. i would cap the 1" sump and drill several small holes in it. i used 1" as a recommendation because the link design uses it. but i think a 1" pipe would be sufficient to feed a 2 or 3 gal container. i've moved up to 1 1/2" pipe for tooling purposes but the first 8 ppk's are 1 1/4" inch and that seems capable of supplying enough water.

the last 3 plants i started are in 100% coco and i really like what i'm seeing.

 

[TheMonarch]

No, I have never used turface before (does All Sport = MVP?). Just hempy buckets (perlite sometimes w/ vermiculite) and DWC (clay balls or straight water). I was actually considering capping the sump and making small holes, so I will pick up a few of those too. Do you think the sump pipe could be filled with just the smaller turface particles (some of the ~30% that gets tossed), without any wicks?

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, themonarch, allsport/mvp same thing. turface grows plants similarly to perlite but has a nice cation exchange capability. it also retains more water than perlite and needs to be well drained. turface has a capillary rise potential of around 6.5". my screened turface wicks work very well but i don't see why the finer particle should not work also. but why would you use the fines for that? it would have a greater potential to clog.

i have harvested 2 plants with cloth wicks and have 8 more to go, but i have 7 growing nicely with media wicks only. i don't believe the cloth wicks are needed if you have a media filled sump constantly submerged.

later on, d9

 

[turbolaser4528]

I was thinking of a pvc (4” because of cost, 6” is expensive) pipe system, closed or not, plumbed to a single control bucket with a float valve in it, no float valve necessary in the pvc as long as you plumb as low as possible and have the bottom of the bucket and the bottom of the pipe on the same level. Come out of the lowest part of the pipe and into the lowest part of the bucket. A large volume tank supplying the bucket.

This looks functional but I think flexible hose instead of rigid pvc to connect would be easier to build. Similar to rdwc setups. Also you show the pvc going into the sidewall about half way up. I would connect at the very bottom and install a drain. I'm just going to use 5/8” garden hose for mine but I won't have the water pump flow volume to deal with. If your pump overwhelms the supply tubing you could pump it into a gravity overflow container that feeds your system and simultaneously returns excess water to the res. This would prevent accidental spills if a return line gets obstructed. It would get some circulation and keep the res aerated. But I really believe this will function fine without a water pump. Remember the water consumption figures above. Water will be steadily moving through the system on its own.

Ahh I see, ill skip on the pump then, i just wanted to have a stable solution, but it should stay stable on its own because its constantly moving from the plants wicking up solution correct?

I agree on the flexibility part, id rather be able to move the plants around, i keep redesigning and redesigning haha i wonder if ill ever get it right

Another thing to consider is whether you want to turn or rotate your plants. If you do the airline as you show it will prevent this if your totes have closed tops. You might want to consider installing the airline through the top container somehow and have pop off connections so you can turn the plants easily.

I dont really rotate plants as I think it takes energy for them to turn back towards the light and can cause foxtailing, but i regress..

What size pots are you going to use? All coco?

Um I'm thinking 5 gal lowe's buckets filled with about 3-4 gals of 70/30 coco/chunky perlite, I am open to going all coco since it looks like yours is doing beautifully!

one other thing right now. some of the research papers i've read suggest a max res depth of 6" as that is how far ambient o2 will penetrate naturally without aeration due to atmospheric partial pressures. just more bs to think about. if you are aerating somehow it really doesn't matter.

Definitely, I tried finding a flat shallow container at some stores today, couldn't really find anything.

I may have to just use that mat stuff you use and support with another bucket cut to ~6" underneath it, where can you get that mat anyway?

next this is the first all coco plant. 3 wks from transplant. 20 different pruning cuts have been made so far. finger for scale. no cloth wick.

SICK!!!!! how often do you have to top water that one? Id like to only have to water the top once every 3 days, or 2-3 times per week MAX. It just makes things much easier for me, is this possible with a media wick, and how can i achieve this in 5 gal bucket with coco wick?

turbolaser, here is another view of the conduit fittings, before and after i cut them. then an assembled sump. you can get o rings and washers to waterproof it from auto parts stores. or you could just silicone it as it's all clean, new plastic. teflon tape helps get it all the way down.

i did the drawing on "delta" sketchup. this would support 2 gal containers.

Nice yeah I was looking at them today, found the bathtub washers in 1.5"s, but lowe's didnt have the female 1.5" pvc connections, only 2-4" ones ah!!!

I need to re-evaluate what im trying to do here, I can't seem to come to a conclusion. I want 2 create a system thats flexible, very simple, stable, great growth rates, and low maintenance. any ideas?? bueller?? haha

turbolaser, one last thought for now.

if you kept your design modular, as you show with the tubs, and your connections flexible, with some slack (hose), then you would still maintain a little plant mobility. such as in distance from the lights.

i don't move my lights, i move the plants.

Same here brotha! Mobility is big plus, i was just going to move them around on top of a tote that has a few different holes in it, but flexible hose would be best, maybe pex?

I can't risk flooding the place, so large diameter is preferred

can't wait to see what you've come up with!

nothin much so far haha just more questions. but its all a learning experience so im all ears and lovin it lol

hey, themonarch, allsport/mvp same thing. turface grows plants similarly to perlite but has a nice cation exchange capability. it also retains more water than perlite and needs to be well drained. turface has a capillary rise potential of around 6.5". my screened turface wicks work very well but i don't see why the finer particle should not work also. but why would you use the fines for that? it would have a greater potential to clog.

~6" is what im shooting for, I cant find a tote that shallow, so maybe ill just copy your design and connect them, but use square totes instead of the round bins you use, and float valve of course. This seems to be the simplest thing, Im trying to over complicate things ahh!!

i have harvested 2 plants with cloth wicks and have 8 more to go, but i have 7 growing nicely with media wicks only. i don't believe the cloth wicks are needed if you have a media filled sump constantly submerged.

Exactly what I was hoping to hear

later on, d9

CHEERS!!!!

 

[delta9nxs]

Turbolaser,

the linking mats are from lowes, they should have the gray conduit fittings in electrical. The round 10 gal tubs I use are from wally's, you might consider round instead of rectangular just because it will be easier to measure and cut out an accurate round piece of mat or whatever you use for a barrier.

You could build it without the mat but I think you will have a more stable solution with it. There are 2 basic concepts for building sub-irrigated systems, one is an open system like mistress uses, the other is a closed system, like mine. They both work fine but on slightly different principles. I believe the closed system controls evaporation better.

You know how i've talked about a little top watering from time to time making a slightly better plant? Well the first 2 ppk's show this as #2 was 15-20% larger. I'm going to get a significantly larger yield from it. But I couldn't figure out exactly why. Now I think i've found the answer. A paper on sub-irrigation from the university of mass. describes how evaporation moves excess salts up into the top areas of a sub-irrigated medium. This is just the opposite of purely top watered containers where the accumulation occurs in the bottom part of the pot. So I believe the twice a week top watering with a small amount of water flushes the salts back down as well as increasing capillary rise. If this is true, I should use plain ro water for this. The paper also explained how some plants experienced retarded growth if the salts were allowed to accumulate unchecked.

If you use the bucket in a tub method the sump fitting does not have to be waterproof. I also intend to take mine apart for cleaning between uses.

Onwards to cocoland. I love growing in turface and have been using it for over 7 years. It is a great medium. Plants love it and it's infinitely reusable. However, i'm now very impressed with pure coco. I have been mixing it with various other stuff in varying ratios to see what it does. The growth i'm experiencing with 100% coco is the best i've ever seen. It can only be called “aggressive”. I'm using the atami b'cuzz coco and have had no problems with it.

In fact, I took it out of the veg room into normal light to get some better pics, here they are. These shots also show the “pistolwhipped” or “lucas” pruning as it is applied to clones. Again, this plant is 23 days from transplant and has had more than 20 pruning cuts. It is a media wick only plant.

the first pic is the clone at transplant.

 

[delta9nxs]

one more

 

[turbolaser4528]

Turbolaser,

the linking mats are from lowes, they should have the gray conduit fittings in electrical. The round 10 gal tubs I use are from wally's, you might consider round instead of rectangular just because it will be easier to measure and cut out an accurate round piece of mat or whatever you use for a barrier.

You could build it without the mat but I think you will have a more stable solution with it. There are 2 basic concepts for building sub-irrigated systems, one is an open system like mistress uses, the other is a closed system, like mine. They both work fine but on slightly different principles. I believe the closed system controls evaporation better.

You know how i've talked about a little top watering from time to time making a slightly better plant? Well the first 2 ppk's show this as #2 was 15-20% larger. I'm going to get a significantly larger yield from it. But I couldn't figure out exactly why. Now I think i've found the answer. A paper on sub-irrigation from the university of mass. describes how evaporation moves excess salts up into the top areas of a sub-irrigated medium. This is just the opposite of purely top watered containers where the accumulation occurs in the bottom part of the pot. So I believe the twice a week top watering with a small amount of water flushes the salts back down as well as increasing capillary rise. If this is true, I should use plain ro water for this. The paper also explained how some plants experienced retarded growth if the salts were allowed to accumulate unchecked.

If you use the bucket in a tub method the sump fitting does not have to be waterproof. I also intend to take mine apart for cleaning between uses.

Onwards to cocoland. I love growing in turface and have been using it for over 7 years. It is a great medium. Plants love it and it's infinitely reusable. However, i'm now very impressed with pure coco. I have been mixing it with various other stuff in varying ratios to see what it does. The growth i'm experiencing with 100% coco is the best i've ever seen. It can only be called “aggressive”. I'm using the atami b'cuzz coco and have had no problems with it.

In fact, I took it out of the veg room into normal light to get some better pics, here they are. These shots also show the “pistolwhipped” or “lucas” pruning as it is applied to clones. Again, this plant is 23 days from transplant and has had more than 20 pruning cuts. It is a media wick only plant.

the first pic is the clone at transplant.

holy crap dude shes a beast!!! thats exactly what I was hoping for, top watered twice a week = perfect (for me anyway)

have you looked into driplclean by h&g for taking care of salt buildup? supposedly works very well for that instance..

take care man, this coco media wick looks extremely promising, I use canna coco, after seeing your plant now idk if ill cut it with perlite lol

peace..

 

[Darth Fader]

Turbolaser,

You know how i've talked about a little top watering from time to time making a slightly better plant? Well the first 2 ppk's show this as #2 was 15-20% larger. I'm going to get a significantly larger yield from it. But I couldn't figure out exactly why. Now I think i've found the answer. ...

Onwards to cocoland. ... The growth i'm experiencing with 100% coco is the best i've ever seen. It can only be called “aggressive”.

... Again, this plant is 23 days from transplant and has had more than 20 pruning cuts. It is a media wick only plant.

Just wondering ...

Would pruning, and each plants reaction/shock response, significantly skew a comparison? Are they individually "tempremental" in their response, or do a set of plants, all other things equivalent, react the same to individual pruning?

 

[LJB]

This one, delta?

http://www.umass.edu/umext/floriculture/fact_sheets/greenhouse_management/ghsubirr.html

one heck of a greenhouse mgmt. section on that website

http://www.umass.edu/umext/floriculture/fact_sheets/greenhouse_management.html

 

[delta9nxs]

ljb, yep, that's the one.

darth fader, hey, how's the growin' goin'?

pruning is a strange subject. some strains react well to pruning and some don't.

the sweet tooth #4 that i grow has to be pruned just to keep it under control. it is an extremely bushy plant and if you just let it go you are going to end up with a huge amount of popcorn, smaller terminal buds, stretched out branches, and add hours to trimming. a real mess. sometimes 8 hrs with 2 people trimming. bag appeal goes way down and it just doesn't look as nice.

with the swt#4 pruned using the method developed by "pistolwhipped" and made famous by "lucas" of the lucas formula fame, i get about the same weight but 2 hrs trim time and a much better looking product.

plants that want to grow in a more columnar fashion don't react as well to pruning.

in an attempt to answer your question pruning can skew a comparison between strains, but i believe using one strain and pheno you can produce uniform results.

you can overprune or prune too much too fast and stunt the plant, no matter how well it is growing. i wait until they are really growing well, usually by the end of second week and then take a cut or two per day until i get to the point you see above.

i do it by numbers. from a clone, which is just the tip of a mature plant and already showing alternate phyllotaxy, i take the first six branches starting at the medium, leave the next six, and then top between what would have been 12 and 13. once these seven cuts are made i give them a day or two to recover and then on each of the remaining six branches i will take the first 3 shoots starting from the stem. one or two at a time.

i leave them alone for a while after this and let them put on a little mass. towards the end of veg i start taking off any shoots growing towards the center of the plant.

as they go into 12/12 i take off any weak growth. that is, shoots under about 1/8 of an inch. except for those near the ends.

at the end of stretch (day 21 or so of 12/12) i take off anything that is wimpy looking.

you can leave tiny buds that are near the branch ends as they will fatten up nicely.

the plant immediately responds to the first series of cuts with noticeable thickening of the stem and remaining six branches.

i haven't even mentioned the most compelling reason to prune, and that is to keep the developing buds within the sweet spot of the lights.

individuals of the same pheno should react the same way.

 

[LJB]

delta9nxs

I've got these plants about 5 weeks through bloom. 100% coco in mesh bottomed, round plastic containers, 1 gallon sitting directly in a tub that itself has no drainage. In the future this tub will have a shelf so the plants can be elevated with wicks, but not yet. These plants are root-bound. If the coco is allowed to get to the point where it is nearly dry, the capillary action is so strong that a small amount of water put into the tub, just enough to cover the floor, is soaked up by the plants within 20 seconds.

It's like one of those old Bounty commercials. The quicker picker upper.

 

[turbolaser4528]

ljb, yep, that's the one.

darth fader, hey, how's the growin' goin'?

pruning is a strange subject. some strains react well to pruning and some don't.

the sweet tooth #4 that i grow has to be pruned just to keep it under control. it is an extremely bushy plant and if you just let it go you are going to end up with a huge amount of popcorn, smaller terminal buds, stretched out branches, and add hours to trimming. a real mess. sometimes 8 hrs with 2 people trimming. bag appeal goes way down and it just doesn't look as nice.

with the swt#4 pruned using the method developed by "pistolwhipped" and made famous by "lucas" of the lucas formula fame, i get about the same weight but 2 hrs trim time and a much better looking product.

plants that want to grow in a more columnar fashion don't react as well to pruning.

in an attempt to answer your question pruning can skew a comparison between strains, but i believe using one strain and pheno you can produce uniform results.

you can overprune or prune too much too fast and stunt the plant, no matter how well it is growing. i wait until they are really growing well, usually by the end of second week and then take a cut or two per day until i get to the point you see above.

i do it by numbers. from a clone, which is just the tip of a mature plant and already showing alternate phyllotaxy, i take the first six branches starting at the medium, leave the next six, and then top between what would have been 12 and 13. once these seven cuts are made i give them a day or two to recover and then on each of the remaining six branches i will take the first 3 shoots starting from the stem. one or two at a time.

i leave them alone for a while after this and let them put on a little mass. towards the end of veg i start taking off any shoots growing towards the center of the plant.

as they go into 12/12 i take off any weak growth. that is, shoots under about 1/8 of an inch. except for those near the ends.

at the end of stretch (day 21 or so of 12/12) i take off anything that is wimpy looking.

you can leave tiny buds that are near the branch ends as they will fatten up nicely.

the plant immediately responds to the first series of cuts with noticeable thickening of the stem and remaining six branches.

i haven't even mentioned the most compelling reason to prune, and that is to keep the developing buds within the sweet spot of the lights.

individuals of the same pheno should react the same way.

Nice...

delta9nxs

I've got these plants about 5 weeks through bloom. 100% coco in mesh bottomed, round plastic containers, 1 gallon sitting directly in a tub that itself has no drainage. In the future this tub will have a shelf so the plants can be elevated with wicks, but not yet. These plants are root-bound. If the coco is allowed to get to the point where it is nearly dry, the capillary action is so strong that a small amount of water put into the tub, just enough to cover the floor, is soaked up by the plants within 20 seconds.

It's like one of those old Bounty commercials. The quicker picker upper.

Thats wild, strangely, I have some 3-4 wk vegged braindamage in 2 gal pots with nylon wicks and the coco/perlite is still drying out, what gives??

Perhaps the roots arent established? or the single 3/8" nylon wick in a 60/40 coco chunky perlite mix isnt doing the job? Im at a loss, the leaves are drooping, seems like they are underwatered, moisture meter reads dry.

I guess the roots are more established than I had originally thought lol

yeah they're underwatered, I figured the wick would keep the coco moist enough but its not, maybe more wicks and less perlite?

the wick itself is wet all the way into the pot, it has to not be enough.

a 3/4 media coco wick would be great, i must build delta, im 2 blazed 4 this thread right now hahah puffing on some fs ICE organic fire!!!! YEAH ROCK THE F*CK OUT!!!!!!





hahahah

 

[turbolaser4528]

turbolaser, one last thought for now.

if you kept your design modular, as you show with the tubs, and your connections flexible, with some slack (hose), then you would still maintain a little plant mobility. such as in distance from the lights.

i don't move my lights, i move the plants.

can't wait to see what you've come up with!

will that also support 3-5 gallon plants, provided I used good solid wood for support, have 4" pvc running around a 4x8 room in a rectangle, with a res and float valve hooked to top off res? I wanna keep the wick short like that correct?

and as far as the airline in the sump, what configuration would work best?

meaning shall i just drill a 1/4" hole in the bottom 1" of the sump and insert open line? or shall i use an airstone or what lol na, i just dont know how the air is going to rise through the medium, I want it to somehow disperse evenly, will it do that naturally on its own??


thnx, am going to draw some stuff up soon.

 

[TheMonarch]

~$2 each

I have a few questions, should the holes be on the bottom of the cap or the side of the pipe? If the 'neck' of the 2L is a few inches above the water, can the bottle still be 12" tall. Could I then just make a ~3/4" hole in the top so that less water evaporates?

I've also been thinking about how to build a smaller version of that trashcan, where only a little bit of media is needed and almost all the water is used by the plant. I'll probably end up killing some herbs with a bottle, some PVC, a little perlite/vermiculite, and about 1 gallon of water/nutes..
Thanks

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Wow what an excellent read!

Much info here.

Wicks rule! How far can a wick transport water? Uphill much less i guess...

Would hemp rope make good wick?? I have some spare lying round.

That cucumber pdf is also most excellent!! A smaller version would indeed be interesting for a late season guerilla grow!

Keep up the good work

 

[delta9nxs]

delta9nxs

I've got these plants about 5 weeks through bloom. 100% coco in mesh bottomed, round plastic containers, 1 gallon sitting directly in a tub that itself has no drainage. In the future this tub will have a shelf so the plants can be elevated with wicks, but not yet. These plants are root-bound. If the coco is allowed to get to the point where it is nearly dry, the capillary action is so strong that a small amount of water put into the tub, just enough to cover the floor, is soaked up by the plants within 20 seconds.

It's like one of those old Bounty commercials. The quicker picker upper.

ljb, as you know, i'm still very new to coco. i have only 3 plants in 100%. fascinating stuff. i know from reading that perlite has a capillary rise potential of around 6", and turface has around 6.5", but i've never seen anything on coco. have you?

 

[delta9nxs]

Turbolaser, i've got one plant in a 70/30 perlite/coco mix, and 2 plants in 40/40/20 perlite/turface/coco. Compared to my turface /coco experiments they do dry out faster. Also, the 70/30 plant is showing tip burn on the same nute schedule everything else is on. I don't have another case of tip burn in the house.

The 3/8” nylon wick sounds a little light for a 2 gal pot. The comparisons i've read show acrylic and polyester to be better wicks.

I'm sold on the media only wicks. All 7 are doing fine. I think a 1” media wick would be sufficient for 2 gals. Above that a 1 1/4” or 1 1/2”.

the drawing was done with a 2 gal, maybe 3 gallon container in mind. I think I would go up in size for a 5 gal. Maybe 2x3 or 2x4.

The wick can extend almost to the bottom of your res. The further down it is the more time you have in case you can't take care of your plants on schedule.

I really don't know about the air line hook up. It could be done a lot of different ways. Maybe it shouldn't be through the sump at all. Maybe just one of those long air stones or a soaker ring going all the way across or around the bottom just might get you better dispersal. If you aerate the sump it could invite air type roots to grow in that space, where they would have a higher likelihood of being drowned.

 

[*mistress*]

Nice...

Thats wild, strangely, I have some 3-4 wk vegged braindamage in 2 gal pots with nylon wicks and the coco/perlite is still drying out, what gives??

how long are the rope lengths?
& how deep into the media do they intrude?

ideally, the external rope should be placed w/ 1 frayed end beneath the root ball... the other end extending out of the container-holding plant, & into a solution-filled basin - that is never dry...

thus, the plant will never be w/out water - @ the root.
as has been posted in this thread, top-watering ~1-2 moments per week - just enough to dampen the media - is

Perhaps the roots arent established? or the single 3/8" nylon wick in a 60/40 coco chunky perlite mix isnt doing the job? Im at a loss, the leaves are drooping, seems like they are underwatered, moisture meter reads dry.

the wick will do job if kept saturated... even then, it can only deliver so much water to the plant... has limitations... really there to make sure plant never goes w/out water, but top-watering still a '+', to get even distribution of water+nutes.

I guess the roots are more established than I had originally thought lol

yeah they're underwatered, I figured the wick would keep the coco moist enough but its not, maybe more wicks and less perlite?

1-4 wicks per container ... perlite is not issue. can do wick method w/ 100% perlite...

if spread ropes thru media, may be better saturation of bucket.

the wick itself is wet all the way into the pot, it has to not be enough.

then top water, until damp. keep slightly damp w/ simple spray bottle daily...

a 3/4 media coco wick would be great, i must build delta, im 2 blazed 4 this thread right now hahah puffing on some fs ICE organic fire!!!! YEAH ROCK THE F*CK OUT!!!!!!

even though the media looks dry, if dig out the plant & examine root ball, may be more moisture 'beneath the surface' than estimate... either/or, dry is no water, moist is just enough... your strains may require daily watering, if only in increments.

as over-watering may cause harm like underwatering...

if rope is kept moist/wet, solution will make route up into container... if dig out to check, or examine @ harvest, should find roots inter-twined into rope(s)...

but, if dry, correct w/ maintaining dampness w/ regular, cheapo spray bottle & ful trength solution.

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

 

[LJB]

I'm still having trouble understanding the concept of the media wick.

maybe someone could post a drawing of a simple version?

How is this accomplished using regular two gallon round containers if it all?