TheyCallMeJJay
Member
Just my opinion. I'm going with paint. But my space is a tad bigger. If I was at that small of a space, I would try to get as much out of everything.
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Paint or reflective material?
- Thread starter Waterlab420
- Start date
Just my opinion. I'm going with paint. But my space is a tad bigger. If I was at that small of a space, I would try to get as much out of everything.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=179914
I think that is the thread gnome is refering to, although it doesn't actually reference anything.
I think that is the thread gnome is refering to, although it doesn't actually reference anything.
Ive been searching and ran across that thread along with an hours worth of others trying to find it.
there's a few specific post where a light meter was referenced with panda
and the results were far from what I and many others thought.
DHF, he's now Dun Havin Fun turned me onto how panda reflectivity actually performs.
wish he'd drop by
there's a few specific post where a light meter was referenced with panda
and the results were far from what I and many others thought.
DHF, he's now Dun Havin Fun turned me onto how panda reflectivity actually performs.
wish he'd drop by
TheyCallMeJJay
Member
I'm preparing to apply Valspar Reserve Ultra White Flat today. Part # 535099. I should have some panda laying around somewhere. I don't have a light meter. Any suggestions on one to purchase? I'll do the work, since its oddly not in the forums.
I'll have the ideal control. New hoods, bulbs, ballasts', drywall, primer, and paint.
I'll have the ideal control. New hoods, bulbs, ballasts', drywall, primer, and paint.
sub
Member
Huge difference between Panda and Orca? Interesting. I think I just have generic "Black & White Poly" I got from my local shop, now I'm curious as to it's reflectivity!
I've also always wondered just how much the reflective walls add to the plant - is there any data on this? I'd be curious to see the difference between walls painted flat black and walls painted flat white in terms of plant growth/lumens/PAR
sub
Member
Sorry if I am misunderstanding you, does that mean Panda film is more reflective than you thought, or as shitty as you say? Got a link?
I find it fascinating how Panda vs. Orca can have such a big difference between the two!
I may still have my copy somewhere of "The Facts of Light." I got this book in the '70's. It said that pure flat white reflects 90%. There was no Orca or Panda at the time. But white paint still reflects 90%. For the price, durability, ease of installation, etc. I still use it. Good luck. -granger
Mil = millimeter? If you click it says one millionth of a meter, but its 1/1000...
I can assure all here that pandafilm is on the lower spectrum of reflectivity , diffusion , and dispersal...
I ran everything not green covered with reflectix , but these days "orca" wins the race , with prodex a close second.....
if nothing else use mildewcidal bathroom ultra flat "warm white" as a basecoat for LESS absorbed light/lumens into the wall that NEVER get back to the plants....
Guys....the WHOLE idea is to get what light gets past and beneath the plants to head back towards em FTW for constantly bathed in as much light as possible during lights on...especially with bare bulbs hangin.....
Couldn`t find that link that shows the difference in absorbed vs reflected light Gnomester.....sorry....and granger...
A digtal light meter is your friend , and trust me when I say that even though "titanium dioxide white" paint will make the room shiny and look quite reflective , no paint made approaches 90% reflectivity.....not even close.....don`t believe me....
Take a light meter and shoot the "backsides" or "bottoms" of your plants running horizontally and hopefully the floor painted , and see for yourself..virtually NO light will be reflected back at your plants with paint or pandafilm , but rather mostly absorbed into the walls to be lost forever....
OP with that cheapass car window dressing looks good to me....don`t know how long it`ll hold up , but it`s a cheap solution....
Hope that helps...DHF.....
.....
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Google: "table 2-16 Light Reflection"...and google books should take you to page 217 of "CRC Handbook of Tables for Applied Engineering Science" where Table 2-16. Light Reflection and Transmission is published, (sorry not able to cut & paste...for some reason) so below are few items to compare.
Polished silver, 95% reflectance
White plastic, 78%
White gloss paint, 75%
Aluminum paint, 60%
Now as to paint sheen (flat, satin, semi-gloss, high-gloss)--
Google: "2.5 Reflectance measurements" "color for science"...and google books should take you to page 68--of the book "Color for Science, Art and Technology"...which concluded:
2.5. Reflectance measurements
2,5.1. Specular and diffuse reflectance
If a beam of light shines on a mirror at 45° to its normal, it will be entirely reflected
in the opposite direction at the same angle as shown in fig. 2.20 at (a). This mirror-like
effect is called specular or regular reflection. For all practical purposes, the light does
not enter the material from which the mirror is made but is reflected only by its front
surface.
If a beam of light shines on the flat surface of a compressed pellet of barium sulfate
powder at 45° to its normal, the beam will penetrate the surface and enter into the body of
the pellet. Particles of barium sulfate will scatter, i.e., redirect, the light in many different
directions. After being scattered many times the light will find its way out of the pellet.
The light leaving the pellet will exit at many angles from the normal as shown in fig.
2.20 at (b). This is called diffuse reflection.
Light reflected from a highly glossy white paint film will have both a specular and
a diffuse component as shown in fig. 2.20 at (c). A paint film is made up of pigment
particles held together in a resin binder. Specular reflection occurs at the resin/air interface
and constitutes about 4 percent of the light incident on the film. The remaining light
enters the film, is scattered by the titanium dioxide pigments in the paint and is diffusely
reflected. High gloss materials have very smooth surfaces and the specular component
of the reflection becomes a narrow beam.
As the gloss of a material decreases, its surface becomes rougher. The specular reflection
is a wider beam of less intensity at the specular (mirror) angle as shown in fig. 2.20
at (d). As the gloss decreases further, the specular peak widens until it disappears for a
very matte material. A very matte (flat) white paint will exhibit only diffuse reflectance.
Link to the 511 page book in pdf format (25 meg)...http://dcis.uohyd.ernet.in/~mravi/downloads/CIP/CIP-EBOOKS/color%20science%20for%20technology.pdf
All paint experts share the same opinion, higher the gloss, greater the reflection--lower the gloss, greater the absorption. Some define "absorption" and "reflection" as opposites, such that Reflection Rate = 1 - Absorption Rate (ie, item with 75% Reflection is then limited to maximum of 25% Absorption rate).
My floors, walls and ceilings are painted with high-gloss white--easy to see what's dirty and easy to maintain/repaint.
Polished silver, 95% reflectance
White plastic, 78%
White gloss paint, 75%
Aluminum paint, 60%
Now as to paint sheen (flat, satin, semi-gloss, high-gloss)--
Google: "2.5 Reflectance measurements" "color for science"...and google books should take you to page 68--of the book "Color for Science, Art and Technology"...which concluded:
2.5. Reflectance measurements
2,5.1. Specular and diffuse reflectance
If a beam of light shines on a mirror at 45° to its normal, it will be entirely reflected
in the opposite direction at the same angle as shown in fig. 2.20 at (a). This mirror-like
effect is called specular or regular reflection. For all practical purposes, the light does
not enter the material from which the mirror is made but is reflected only by its front
surface.
If a beam of light shines on the flat surface of a compressed pellet of barium sulfate
powder at 45° to its normal, the beam will penetrate the surface and enter into the body of
the pellet. Particles of barium sulfate will scatter, i.e., redirect, the light in many different
directions. After being scattered many times the light will find its way out of the pellet.
The light leaving the pellet will exit at many angles from the normal as shown in fig.
2.20 at (b). This is called diffuse reflection.
Light reflected from a highly glossy white paint film will have both a specular and
a diffuse component as shown in fig. 2.20 at (c). A paint film is made up of pigment
particles held together in a resin binder. Specular reflection occurs at the resin/air interface
and constitutes about 4 percent of the light incident on the film. The remaining light
enters the film, is scattered by the titanium dioxide pigments in the paint and is diffusely
reflected. High gloss materials have very smooth surfaces and the specular component
of the reflection becomes a narrow beam.
As the gloss of a material decreases, its surface becomes rougher. The specular reflection
is a wider beam of less intensity at the specular (mirror) angle as shown in fig. 2.20
at (d). As the gloss decreases further, the specular peak widens until it disappears for a
very matte material. A very matte (flat) white paint will exhibit only diffuse reflectance.
Link to the 511 page book in pdf format (25 meg)...http://dcis.uohyd.ernet.in/~mravi/downloads/CIP/CIP-EBOOKS/color%20science%20for%20technology.pdf
All paint experts share the same opinion, higher the gloss, greater the reflection--lower the gloss, greater the absorption. Some define "absorption" and "reflection" as opposites, such that Reflection Rate = 1 - Absorption Rate (ie, item with 75% Reflection is then limited to maximum of 25% Absorption rate).
My floors, walls and ceilings are painted with high-gloss white--easy to see what's dirty and easy to maintain/repaint.
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I can assure all here that pandafilm is on the lower spectrum of reflectivity , diffusion , and dispersal...
I ran everything not green covered with reflectix , but these days "orca" wins the race , with prodex a close second.....
if nothing else use mildewcidal bathroom ultra flat "warm white" as a basecoat for LESS absorbed light/lumens into the wall that NEVER get back to the plants....
Guys....the WHOLE idea is to get what light gets past and beneath the plants to head back towards em FTW for constantly bathed in as much light as possible during lights on...especially with bare bulbs hangin.....
Couldn`t find that link that shows the difference in absorbed vs reflected light Gnomester.....sorry....and granger...
A digtal light meter is your friend , and trust me when I say that even though "titanium dioxide white" paint will make the room shiny and look quite reflective , no paint made approaches 90% reflectivity.....not even close.....don`t believe me....
Take a light meter and shoot the "backsides" or "bottoms" of your plants running horizontally and hopefully the floor painted , and see for yourself..virtually NO light will be reflected back at your plants with paint or pandafilm , but rather mostly absorbed into the walls to be lost forever....
OP with that cheapass car window dressing looks good to me....don`t know how long it`ll hold up , but it`s a cheap solution....
Hope that helps...DHF.....
thanx for droppin by DHF,
I spent a good hour yesterday lookin for the reflective thread
tons of comparisons to ponder
Go for flat white bathroom paint .
You can clean it with a sponge .
It repels water and is laced with anti fungal.
Once in a while just add another layer of paint when sanitizing the room.
You will loose in reflectivity but your growroom will be much more convenient to clean and safer fire wise.
You can clean it with a sponge .
It repels water and is laced with anti fungal.
Once in a while just add another layer of paint when sanitizing the room.
You will loose in reflectivity but your growroom will be much more convenient to clean and safer fire wise.
TheyCallMeJJay
Member
I assure you paint is not as cheap as it sounds. I'm already over $100 just in naps and paints. I used high end paints and primers and several coats all together. Very time consuming as well.
It should be noted that the way you lay your paint out makes a huge difference. You'd be surprised to find that the vast majority of the population simply does not know how to get paint lay on "flat and smooth". It doesn't happen in one coat. People end up with "orange peel" surface, which looks just like the surface of an orange peel.
I have 5 total coats and will be putting down 1 more today. 3 coats of primer and 3 coats of flat white. All for a measly 70 sq ft. I haven't even counted all the hours it's taken to do. But so far I have 3 days of waiting for paint to dry.
It should be noted that the way you lay your paint out makes a huge difference. You'd be surprised to find that the vast majority of the population simply does not know how to get paint lay on "flat and smooth". It doesn't happen in one coat. People end up with "orange peel" surface, which looks just like the surface of an orange peel.
I have 5 total coats and will be putting down 1 more today. 3 coats of primer and 3 coats of flat white. All for a measly 70 sq ft. I haven't even counted all the hours it's taken to do. But so far I have 3 days of waiting for paint to dry.
TheyCallMeJJay
Member
Care to share which light meter you use? I'm in the market for one.
Bro , I`ve been retired from growing since July `09.....but....
My old light meter measured lux/lumens/footcandles and I only used mine for diminishing distances/lumenloss from my bare bulbs so as to keep all plant matter in said optimum zones....these days....
Light meters measure umols/par/and wtf ever science has chosen for the changeover from lumens/footcandles to par/umols , so I can`t help yas , but IF you use 50 watts per sq ft as a baseline when testing your meter , you`ll be amazed at how far the light drops off behind and especially underneath your plants......that said....
I made all my rooms their own air-cooled reflectors with everything that wasn`t green covered in reflectix including the ceilings , and that way all light that passed the lights got bounced back at the plants instead of absorbed into the walls or floors....anyways..
As said above , in such small quarters I`m sure the results are negligible , but in bigger rooms all light past and beneath the plants is gone forever , bet on it.....try to optimize reflectivity , diffusion , and dispersion in your grow area...
Nothing works better than reflectix/prodex/orca of your choice....I know your paint and time`s expensive to apply said coats of primer plus enough coats for a smooth , slick shiny surface , but it can`t compare to the above.....bet it`ll wipe down good though....6 coats....wow....respect...
Peace....DHF.....
.....TheyCallMeJJay
Member
Technically I'm at a 10ft. by 3.5 ft. flowering footprint. So, I'm at 85 watts per sq ft. At that number I'm not overly concerned with light bounce.
If I was the op, with one light, I would go with any of the reflective material suggested here.
If I was the op, with one light, I would go with any of the reflective material suggested here.
personally I'm a prodex man.
you get so much more bang for the buck with it.
with 2-3 layers with an air gap you have R-50 easy
it's extremely easy to work with.
using it with other insulation products and my 14x20ft bloom room has more insulative qualities than a walk in cooler.
6000w open bulb and my ac bill averages $168@18hrs veg and $115 in 12rh bloom runs in the summer in florida
Prevents 97% of radiant heat transfer :
Vapor barrier : Core sealed on both 175' side with flange : Elastic :
19dba contact noise reduction :
90 degree celsius (194 fahrenheit) contact temperature rating : UV resistance :
Does not promote mold or mildew :
Does not provide for nesting of rodents, bugs or birds : Seals around nails (no leak) :
Reflective aluminum foil on each side of 5mm (13/64) closed-cell polyethylene foam center :
Keeps its shape over time (doesn't collapse) : Rippled surface increases airflow :
you get so much more bang for the buck with it.
with 2-3 layers with an air gap you have R-50 easy
it's extremely easy to work with.
using it with other insulation products and my 14x20ft bloom room has more insulative qualities than a walk in cooler.
6000w open bulb and my ac bill averages $168@18hrs veg and $115 in 12rh bloom runs in the summer in florida
Prevents 97% of radiant heat transfer :
Vapor barrier : Core sealed on both 175' side with flange : Elastic :
19dba contact noise reduction :
90 degree celsius (194 fahrenheit) contact temperature rating : UV resistance :
Does not promote mold or mildew :
Does not provide for nesting of rodents, bugs or birds : Seals around nails (no leak) :
Reflective aluminum foil on each side of 5mm (13/64) closed-cell polyethylene foam center :
Keeps its shape over time (doesn't collapse) : Rippled surface increases airflow :
the gnome,
You know what a major proponent of Prodex I am. I stumbled onto it at just the right time when I was building my room.
I decided, OK, I'll try it. I put it up on the walls, door, ceiling. It's pushing 9 years now, and I haven't had to make any repairs on it. Even on the ceiling. The ceiling is plywood over rafters with pink fiberglass . I taped, using the Mylar tape they sell at Insulation for less, strips of Prodex on it, stapled it, layed Prodex over it. For the 2nd layer, I put 1x4's perpendicular to the rafters. This created space between the first and 2nd layers. Taped it up, stapled it, taped over the staples. It's so light that it doesn't try to fall down. Best thing I did on the build. Wasn't thinking about it at the time, but now I have no worries about IR snooping. No sound outside the room. Needs no reflective surface added. Used white paint on non Prodex interior walls. Good luck. -granger
P.S.- Actually, I have had to make repairs where I jabbed it with lumber or whatever. Piece of Aluminum tape and done.
You know what a major proponent of Prodex I am. I stumbled onto it at just the right time when I was building my room.
I decided, OK, I'll try it. I put it up on the walls, door, ceiling. It's pushing 9 years now, and I haven't had to make any repairs on it. Even on the ceiling. The ceiling is plywood over rafters with pink fiberglass . I taped, using the Mylar tape they sell at Insulation for less, strips of Prodex on it, stapled it, layed Prodex over it. For the 2nd layer, I put 1x4's perpendicular to the rafters. This created space between the first and 2nd layers. Taped it up, stapled it, taped over the staples. It's so light that it doesn't try to fall down. Best thing I did on the build. Wasn't thinking about it at the time, but now I have no worries about IR snooping. No sound outside the room. Needs no reflective surface added. Used white paint on non Prodex interior walls. Good luck. -granger
P.S.- Actually, I have had to make repairs where I jabbed it with lumber or whatever. Piece of Aluminum tape and done.
