Organic yields

[CrushnYuba]

I don't hate sip at all. I think i like it better then hand watering. It almost does what i want. Just not quite.

I agree that more air is better. I haven't really had better yields with coco then organic. Part of it may be that I'm not such a good Salt grower. And i have grown more weed organically then with salts. But i really haven't been able to yield better for the most part. I have been enjoying experiments with salts though.

Any difference in yield i would imagine would just be from increased oxygen at the roots and available nutrients. I have done better keeping my soil as light and fluffy as possible. Using less compost and casting. More soiless media like peat and coco. Tilling between runs and keeping from compacting. Making sure the medium keeps its body as it gets recycled. Making sure i don't overwater my plants. Hand watering can compact soil and separate it. When medium gets water to fast perlite floats out and it all settles. Just using drip avoids those issues. I feel like when you hand water, you wash the available nutrients down away from that nice area right below the surface where it is most useful. I think sip does well for people because it also avoids those issues.
With a light medium, drip, and top dressing. I try to give roots as much oxygen as possible and available nutrients in the upper part of the root zone.
I used to have friends throw out soil after a single run. Only use new stuff. They really actually did well. It was just so wasteful. But they constantly had great results. 20k$+ in soil every year.
I recycle my soil but i take care to keep it feeling like it's fresh. I get similar results.

 

[thailer]

so i still have a couple pages left to digest but this study basically blows my hopthesis out of the water about deeper beds creating more air space at the root zone, which i guess it does except that this greatly reduced the yield.


crushinyuba may be interested tho because it compared wet yield to dry yield and even though the yield was high with harvested tomatoes, that the dried biomass was much higher in top fed tomatoes compared to bottom fed tomatoes and i think it was due to the wicking bed tom's having higher water content so more weight. i wonder if i am reading that wrong. it makes sense though because the plants just feel heavier when i harvest and the buds/branches lean a lot more during a weight surge than hand watered plants. you can feel the difference. still the dry gram weight for me personally was a huge difference in favor of sips over fabric pots.

 

[40degsouth]

Hey everyone, l hope you’re all well,
I’m wondering how often the beds will need to be flushed due to the wicking process retaining salts. What I’m thinking is, with conventional watering, salts and available nutrients and minerals, are transported through the soil and settle in a horizon,within the soil structure, before being totally washed away, by say, over watering. These salts can be collected in a reservoir over time and become toxic, but in a wicking bed, this process works in reverse, therefore trapping any toxicity within the soil.
This leads onto the salts versus organic debate, within the system, one will become toxic quicker.
Because of the way the wicking beds are working, at what point does the soil become overwhelmed with detrimental nutrients, like salts, having no way to escape and in which horizon are different nutrients accumulating. Even in organics, salt build up occurs over time. To me, this explains different peoples experiences with the system and of course, any system.
This would quite obviously have an adverse effect on yield, probably, even before it becomes noticeable at other stages of plant development.
I guess we need soil tests over time, in isolated systems with transparency regarding methods and inputs to really pin this one down.
We were having a really interesting discussion, before Christmas, over at the “Local Materials” thread regarding indoor nutrients and Microbeman dropped some really important knowledge regarding his systems, which was to brew microbe teas to feed his plants and additives to aid in this process. He also mentioned inputs that are detrimental to the process, which has changed my whole way of producing teas and feedings.
To me this is a really cheap and easy way to feed our plants, organically, with obvious benefits regarding plant and soil health which will ultimately translate into yields that don’t eat into bottom lines. Personally l feel this question is something that’s worth exploring, assuming you’ve got a healthy soil, what’s the biggest yield you can achieve with the least amount of money.
Cheers,
40.

 

[moses wellfleet]

Hey everyone, l hope you’re all well,
I’m wondering how often the beds will need to be flushed due to the wicking process retaining salts. What I’m thinking is, with conventional watering, salts and available nutrients and minerals, are transported through the soil and settle in a horizon,within the soil structure, before being totally washed away, by say, over watering. These salts can be collected in a reservoir over time and become toxic, but in a wicking bed, this process works in reverse, therefore trapping any toxicity within the soil.
This leads onto the salts versus organic debate, within the system, one will become toxic quicker.
Because of the way the wicking beds are working, at what point does the soil become overwhelmed with detrimental nutrients, like salts, having no way to escape and in which horizon are different nutrients accumulating. Even in organics, salt build up occurs over time. To me, this explains different peoples experiences with the system and of course, any system.
This would quite obviously have an adverse effect on yield, probably, even before it becomes noticeable at other stages of plant development.
I guess we need soil tests over time, in isolated systems with transparency regarding methods and inputs to really pin this one down.
We were having a really interesting discussion, before Christmas, over at the “Local Materials” thread regarding indoor nutrients and Microbeman dropped some really important knowledge regarding his systems, which was to brew microbe teas to feed his plants and additives to aid in this process. He also mentioned inputs that are detrimental to the process, which has changed my whole way of producing teas and feedings.
To me this is a really cheap and easy way to feed our plants, organically, with obvious benefits regarding plant and soil health which will ultimately translate into yields that don’t eat into bottom lines. Personally l feel this question is something that’s worth exploring, assuming you’ve got a healthy soil, what’s the biggest yield you can achieve with the least amount of money.
Cheers,
40.

Great post, this is a very important question and one I'm dealing with at the moment.

I use recycled living soil that I have had for nearly 5 years, 2 of those in SIPs. Each run I top dress with various dry amendments. There are earthworms in each container.

A couple months ago I had a SIP that became over watered and the level rose almost to the soil line. The plant died very quickly. I drained the rez and immediately noticed the water tasted extremely salty, unfortunately I didn't test with an EC meter. It happened again a couple days ago but I caught it early and saved the plant. I have the water in a container and will go check it now and report back.

I think I will immediately drain a couple containers and flush with fresh water until the water coming out has no sign of salts. Then plant some clones and see how they flower out.

 

[Bio boy]

What soil mix and what u amending
Could you have amended toomuch as dude page 3 said he hasnt amnded for 3 tills now are people over amending every grow? Whats the limit ..i have no idea brainstorming im starting mine now so coule learn prior...


The autopot octapus and blue matts seems bettwr than a sip?

 

[Bio boy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIWKbxBtKvA

 

[Lapides]

I love blumats

 

[Bio boy]

Could run the spyder deep near base as shown.

Bluemats on top.
Sat on a perlite bed for flower justincase so can fill n drink if goin mental?

 

[thailer]

the bed of perlite will come in handy if you get a runaway dripper to catch any flooding before it hits the floor.

also, most people use an overflow so their SIP doesn't get too full. i have one on my hand watered SIPs and the autopot design keeps the level perfect with no issues.

 

[Bio boy]

the bed of perlite will come in handy if you get a runaway dripper to catch any flooding before it hits the floor.

also, most people use an overflow so their SIP doesn't get too full. i have one on my hand watered SIPs and the autopot design keeps the level perfect with no issues.

Where did the dudes overwatering issue come from that killed his plants i was reading usibg sip?
The topup valve keeping cobstant level?
So bettwr to fill it every week n let it dry out leaving bluemats top feeding abd fill base again?

 

[thailer]

Where did the dudes overwatering issue come from that killed his plants i was reading usibg sip?
The topup valve keeping cobstant level?
So bettwr to fill it every week n let it dry out leaving bluemats top feeding abd fill base again?

Moses, the one you're speaking of, does not use an overflow because i think i did not mention it or he did not see it in the original instructions i posted in my grow log Thai's Blooper Reel, a long time ago when i first posted about making mine. he made one like it but it didn't get an overflow hole so when he hand waters, he looks to see how much to add. sometimes, rarely he has added too much water and the plant dies or maybe it was due to rain? i forget.

i would choose either blumats or SIPs. Both seem overkill to me. i have a couple friends who do blumats and they use a tray underneath because their foot depth beds sometimes need water added about once a week by hand due to the blumats not fully saturating all the soil but they also like to use teas and KNF stuff so it works out really well for them. maybe others have a different experience, i've never used blumats. they can rarely have a runaway dripper i've heard but i don't know how often or to what extent the water drips.

with sips you can't really add teas or fertilizers because the run off goes down into the reservoir which can cause rot or other problems so it has ran best in mine and moses' experience as strict water only with top dress of fertilizer, microbes, compost mulches.

but i think adding some sort of irrigation system is going to give you the best chance of getting a high yield that is comparable in size to your coco plants.

 

[CrushnYuba]

I think blumats are pretty cool. I havent used them before because it seems hard to do on a large scale. I just need too many emitters to completely cover the area. But i used this sensor that was basically a blumat to run an irrigation system. It looks and works just like a blumat but it plugs into an irrigation controller. It worked pretty well. A little carrot with a wire attached.

The thing about top feeding is emitters have to be close enough together so there aren't dry spots. Emitter line does better coverage then single emitters. Something u don't really have to worry about with sip.

Thailer: how well does compost wick compared to peat or coco? You said you do compost mulch. How moist does the compost get?

How effective is top dressing? When i top dress with my drip systems, i always hand water it down a little. With most drip systems it's a real slow drip. Like less then 1/2 gallon an hour and it wicks like an sip just in the other direction. Even though the direction it's wicking for me is down, its not really enough. The drip is just a little too slow and I need to just spray the top a little too force it down a bit. Do u do the same thing? Or are your roots just growing into it because you are top dressing under the mulch layer?

 

[thailer]

I think blumats are pretty cool. I havent used them before because it seems hard to do on a large scale. I just need too many emitters to completely cover the area. But i used this sensor that was basically a blumat to run an irrigation system. It looks and works just like a blumat but it plugs into an irrigation controller. It worked pretty well. A little carrot with a wire attached.

The thing about top feeding is emitters have to be close enough together so there aren't dry spots. Emitter line does better coverage then single emitters. Something u don't really have to worry about with sip.

Thailer: how well does compost wick compared to peat or coco? You said you do compost mulch. How moist does the compost get?

How effective is top dressing? When i top dress with my drip systems, i always hand water it down a little. With most drip systems it's a real slow drip. Like less then 1/2 gallon an hour and it wicks like an sip just in the other direction. Even though the direction it's wicking for me is down, its not really enough. The drip is just a little too slow and I need to just spray the top a little too force it down a bit. Do u do the same thing? Or are your roots just growing into it because you are top dressing under the mulch layer?

i haven't really tested out the differences but compost is probably not as good at wicking as coco or peat.

i think top dressing is most effective if you work it into the first six-ish inches of pre-existing soil. when i was just sprinkling it on top or adding it to compost as a mulch, it was not as effective or immediately noticeable as when i got it worked down and spread around at root level. if i did a top dress of fertilizer it is just because i have vegged out a big plant over 3-4 months and it is showing signs of yellowing. honestly it tends to give me the green claw leaves, even trying lightly so i really aim to not over veg plants so i don't even have to.

IIRC theres a podcast interview of Microbeman on the KIS podcast where they're both discussing low till and top dressing so the roots can easily access the fertilizer and by not disturbing the soil, it makes it harder for feeder roots to get the fertilizers in no till?? i hope i remember that correctly.

 

[Fitzera]

IIRC theres a podcast interview of Microbeman on the KIS podcast where they're both discussing low till and top dressing so the roots can easily access the fertilizer and by not disturbing the soil, it makes it harder for feeder roots to get the fertilizers in no till?? i hope i remember that correctly.

That makes sense to me. Some things I've used to top dress have turned into a crust, so now I mix my top dressing with some ewc and fresh soil first, and then apply it. Kind of like a hot soil mix. I think it helps keep everything in the top dress somewhat moist so it breaks down readily, and as you point to, you're not disturbing the root system.

 

[thailer]

That makes sense to me. Some things I've used to top dress have turned into a crust, so now I mix my top dressing with some ewc and fresh soil first, and then apply it. Kind of like a hot soil mix. I think it helps keep everything in the top dress somewhat moist so it breaks down readily, and as you point to, you're not disturbing the root system.

no i want to disturb the root system. i mean not really but i want to get down deep with my fertilizers so feeder roots have access to it. all during veg of course. that is what they were talking about. they were saying how no till systems and the reamending process wasn't in their opinion as good as a low till approach. i don't want to put words in their mouth and this is how i remember it.

 

[Veggia farmer]

To give feeder roots more access to the top dressing I highly suggest mulch.

For instance if you would feed some manure, have a layer of straw over it. Like if someone would always have straw mulch over soil, lift straw and top dress on top over the soil and let the straw cover the dressing and soil again. Water then.. Voila! Total access..

 

[Bio boy]

Blend it up? I saw that adding stalks in beginning by flower worms ate em all under a topdress gone. Then guy puts the leaves everywhere and covers in ewc and its banging lol?
So toplayer must be avalible due to worms if ita kept wet so it can mould

 

[Fitzera]

no i want to disturb the root system. i mean not really but i want to get down deep with my fertilizers so feeder roots have access to it. all during veg of course. that is what they were talking about. they were saying how no till systems and the reamending process wasn't in their opinion as good as a low till approach. i don't want to put words in their mouth and this is how i remember it.

My mistake, I read that backwards

But in my example, I would imagine the feeder roots grow into the top dress as its not just dry amendments but a soil mix. But I understand now what you're trying to accomplish.