Organic Fanatic Collective

[vonforne]

Good post 3BM.

 

[irie-i]

ive also been supercropping since i read soma's book, indoor and out, and i'm now sold on it. ihave managed to break stems so bad they fell off, but maybe 1 out of 20, i just gotta be careful.

LK question:
i put kelpvitamins), molasses(carbs), and liquid humus in my teas. would i still benefit more from liquid karma?

 

[vonforne]

ya. there are some additional ingredents in LK that are good for the plants. They have 7 major groups of nutrients two of which is a horomone, auxins and cytokinins, which comes from wheat and Zea extracts. Your mix being good this would be better(LK)and they have Vitamins -" All of the vitamins used in this formulation are extremely beneficial for plant growth because they function as co-factors for enzymes involved in carbohydrate metabolism and the biosynthesis of macromolecules. Liquid KarmaTM contains significant amounts of riboflavin, thiamine, pyridoxine, and all of the other B-complex vitamins obtained from fermented yeast extracts." So, I would guess that it would benefit the plants a little better. Don't know how much. It looks like you have a very good mix going already, maybe you can add the missing ingredents and make IRIE-I Karma. I love the stuff and so do the plants. Its a great foliar feeding agent also.

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Not to bag on LK, it is just it rubs me the wrong way when I have to pay for something I already have.

Now, don't get me wrong as I am not going to go this route- its the hassle factor really that is the driving force in just purchasing the product.

However after ready the ad copy it seems to me that the following would be a pretty close appoximation. However without testing its just a supposition.

Ok,

liquid kelp w/ humic acid
superthrive for the B vitamins and auxins and hormones
left over beer (micro brew pale ale or something of that nature)(de-alcoholed and de- carbonated) for various B vitamins and yeasts
humna urine (yeah I know....theres the yuke factor)
ewc casting tea

Like I said, I think I would just buy the stuff just for the ease of it.

Just a thought.

minds_I

 

[guanoman]

Hey what about the silt left over from U-Brew homemade beer? Would it have all those B vitamins?

 

[vonforne]

I suppose if we reproduce the ingredents in LK, then it would be possible to re-produce our own. We pretty much modify everything else to grow our plants. Why not this product. What are the readly available items and their cost? But........find something to replace the pee. HaHa. It's just the thought, not that is not a good, free fert. Hard to beat 19.00 for the results but 19.00 x 10 a year opposed to saving that cash for something else.... I guess it would be like the "Teas" we make. I'd hate to pay 29.99 x a year for the pre-made stuff. wormcastings is just $14.00-16 litre ect. and you get a greater amount for your investment. I would love to have gallons of LK.

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Guanoman, that may have merit- I have a "Mr. Beer" (stop laaughing- it made some good beer and I got it for Xmas.). Anyway after the first fermentaton and you bottle the beer, the stuff left at the bottom would likely be very benificial.

Question is- how much to apply? I wonder if you froze it if it could be stored for when you need it- presume so.

minds_I

 

[Suby]

OK I was just waiting for someone to say the magic word: B1.

In short it is a bullshit additive, that's right it doesn't do shit for plants.
Here's is a great article about common gardening myths, I hope you enjoy it.

Oh and by the way I pledge we keep the mystical B1 additice off this thread and hopefully off this site.
I still see peeps post about it weekly, it's the little things that you know that make you a real grower IMHO, being open to being wrong all the time is the only to improve on what you do....

Gardening Myths

By Robert Cox, Horticulture Agent, Colorado State University Cooperative Extension

Many consumers assume that products on the store shelf must have been tested to prove their claims. Certainly, fertilizers have to meet nutrient content requirements, and pesticides are rigorously tested for safety before EPA registration.

For some other garden products, however, no such testing is required before sale to the public.

A good example is vitamin B1 (thiamine), often sold to "prevent transplant shock" and "stimulate new root growth" when planting trees, shrubs, roses and other plants. A study in the 1930's provided the basis for such claims. Pea roots cut off from the plant were placed in a culture medium in the laboratory.

The researchers knew that thiamine was normally found in roots, so they put thiamine in the culture medium and found that root growth did occur. Vitamin B1 is manufactured in 0lant leaves and sent to the roots, but if roots are cut off and placed in a petri plate, vitamin B1 stimulates growth of the roots when it saturates the culture medium.

Planting trees in a soil environment, however, is vastly different from a laboratory culture. Most important, gardeners aren't in the habit of cutting off the root system when planting. Several studies using intact mums, apple trees, orange trees, pine, tomato, beans, pepper, corn, pear, watermelon and squash have failed to demonstrate that vitamin B1 treatments provide any type of growth response.

Some "root stimulator" products contain a rooting hormone and fertilizer along with vitamin B1. These materials may increase rooting and growth, not the vitamin B1.

The bottom line: While root stimulator products are not necessary for transplant success, if you do use one, make sure it contains a rooting hormone and fertilizer rather than just vitamin B1. The vitamin B1 is for marketing purposes rather than actual effect.

Suby

 

[Suby]

MI I totally agree, why pay for something when you can make it yourself.
It's really the whole principle behind organics, whymake fertilizer when it exists already, raw and ready from nature.

I was once young and foolish and bought 2 very large containers of this stuff when running a hydro setup with PureBlendPro, it grew some fantastic herb for sure.
I do love it though, it's the only mixed fert I use other than an odd dose of PBPro Soil Bloom even if it's not 100% organic. {Yeah I know busted...}

Maybe together we can break it down and nail down the "Kernel's Secret".
And BTW tht beer res sounds fine...I think, everything in beer is good for plants and presumably the same for it's ingredients I know brewers yeast is great for fungi population.

Suby

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

Suby, nothing would please me more then to duplicate LK from common supplies.

But in my older years I found ease of use to be the ticket.

Beyond making a tea, I use Alaska fish, EJ Bloom (only when I forget to make a tea), the liquid kelp w/ 6% humic acid and dry molasses (have excellent results compared to liquid).

Suby, other things I have noticed to use for ferts is day old coffee-high in K and acidic.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c210s.html

just a thought for a tea

minds_I

 

[jaykush]

usually i see people putting the coffee grinds in the compost pile. i do it myself beacuse i can get so much of the stuff and it helps the ph of the pile as well, i never drink coffee though. i know i got some info on it somewhere though give me a few.

i think we can get the same results as lk with a diff mix. or close. and minds_i is right, it has to be easy use easy make.

beer...i only used for snails i never felt right putting it on my plant maybe ill do some testing. now the question is would darker beers be better?

ps: i found out that b1 shit was crap not too long ago with my own experiments. now vitamin c i think when mixed with certain things can relaly do some stuff.

 

[jaykush]

not much im still looking for the main batch of info but heres some.

Applying coffee grounds
directly to your garden:
Coffee grounds can be applied directly as
a top dressing to n-itrogen loving plants like
azaleas, lettuces, most perennials, and
allium plants. Adding brown material such
as leaves and dried grass to the mulch will
help balance the nutrition of your soil.
Mixing coffee grounds in
your compost:
Coffee grounds act as a green material with
a carbon-nitrogen (C-N) ratio of 20-1.
Combined with browns such as leaves and
straw, coffee grounds generate heat and will
speed up the compost process.
Using coffee grounds
in your worm bin:
Worms fed with coffee grounds
and other vegetarian materials
will flourish.

Most of the acidity in coffee is removed
during the brewing process. Used grounds
have an average pH of 6.9. Use your
grounds within 3 weeks to capture the
most nutritional value.

What’s in Coffee Grounds?
Starbucks commissioned a study in 1995
to better understand the make up of the
organic matter we call coffee grounds. The
following is the result of the analysis
performed by the University of Washington,
College of Forest Resources:
Primary Nutrients
Nitrogen
1.45%
Phosphorus
ND ug/g
Potassium
1204 ug/g
Secondary Nutrients
Calcium
389 ug/g
Magnesium
448 ug/g
Sulfur
high ug/g
Terms: ND = indicates sample is below
detection limit
ug/g= microgram / gram

ps: starbucks has a program where they give you there used coffee grounds.

 

[irie-i]

theres B vitamins in kelp and seaweed as far as i know, so since i use kelp as a regular part of my feeeding schedule, and its cheap, i quit B1

 

[bostrom155]

Farewell everyone

Farewell everyone

Well circumstances have forced me to stop growing and probably not post for abit, I'm moving and probably will not be back up for 6-8 weeks. no, I'm not going to jail; . But Suby, MI, pinecone, V, LC (when he pops up) and everyone, THANK YOU and I'll see you guys soon.


Sub's great idea

 

[jaykush]

good read on

BENEFICIAL AND EFFECTIVE
MICROORGANISMS

http://www.agriton.nl/higa.html

TABLE OF CONTENTS

FORWARD *

INTRODUCTION *
1. THE CONCEPT OF EFFECTIVE MICROORGANISMS:
THEIR ROLE AND APPLICATION *


2. UTILIZATION OF BENEFICIAL MICROORGANISMS IN AGRICULTURE *
2.1 What Constitutes an Ideal Agricultural System. *
2.2 Efficient Utilization and Recycling of Energy *
2.3 Preservation of Natural Resources and the Environment. *
2.4 Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms for a Sustainable Agriculture *
2.4.1 Optimum Yields of High Quality Crops *

3. CONTROLLING THE SOIL MICROFLORA:
PRINCIPLES AND STRATEGIES *
3.1 Principles of Natural Ecosystems and the Application of Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms *
3.2 Controlling the Soil Microflora for Optimum Crop Production and Protection *
3.3 Application of Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms: A New Dimension *
3.4 Application of Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms: Fundamental Considerations *

4. CLASSIFICATION OF SOILS BASED ON THEIR MICROBIOLOGICAL PROPERTIES *
4.1 Functions of Microorganisms: Putrefaction, Fermentation, and Synthesis *
4.2 Relationships Between Putrefaction, Fermentation, and Synthesis *
4.3 Classification of Soils Based on the Functions of Microorganisms *
4.3.1 Disease-Inducing Soils *
4.3.2 Disease-Suppressive Soils *
4.3.3 Zymogenic Soils *
4.3.4 Synthetic Soils *

SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS *

edit: wheres all the organic bud shots, we only do it for the plants and the best damn pot right?

 

[Suby]

Organic Eye Candy

Organic Eye Candy


If we're going to be lounging here we might as well throw up some posters.
Here are some Kali Spice from Dman all organic.

 

[Suby]

Bostrom buddy don't be too long, let us know if you land feet first in a new home.
Too bad about the girls but ya know gorgeous ganja is always just a mail order and postal box away.

Peace Bro

 

[3BM]

Great shots Sub! Is that your work? I love the detail shot. Well keep it up guys, great thread.

 

[guanoman]

I read this article on culturing lacto bacilli and forest microbes back in 2004, though I never found the information how to culture them. When jaykush posted the culturing information on this forum I was so exited that I had to find this article again. I talked to jaykush about this info before posting it. He let me take the glory and post it myself. It explains the uses of these concoctions in a little more detail, but it does not tell how to make them. Its a good addition to the previous info.


Quote from http://www.newfarm.org/features/0404/microorgs/index.shtml

Using the ordinary to cultivate the mysterious power of beneficial indigenous microorganisms
Like a cut-rate magician, Philippine farmer and scientist Gil Carandang teaches farmers how to use cheap vodka, generic brown sugar, milk, rice and local soil to harness local microorganisms as invisible workhorses on their farms.

By Lisa M. Hamilton

Who wouldn’t be suspicious? Right from the get-go this workshop is promising cure-all concoctions that bring new life to everything they touch. The potions work in ways that are difficult to explain and impossible to actually see. The man conducting the affair is fast-talking and charismatic—he even lives in a far-off land. The whole thing smells like snake oil.

Here’s the catch: Gil Carandang, this crafty man from the Philippines, is not trying to sell us anything. In fact, he wants us to buy as little as possible—that’s the point of this seminar. The lesson that’s officially on the agenda is the same as the event’s formal title: “Cultivating Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms.” But what’s really being taught here, the true objective, is the empowerment of farmers.

By learning how to cultivate microorganisms, growers become able to meet their needs with what exists on the farm and can stop buying amendments from chemical companies (purveyors who, some might argue, are the real peddlers in modern farming). The technology was born of ingenuity, but it has spread by financial necessity, primarily among farmers in developing countries for whom agricultural chemicals are painfully expensive.

“This technology can reduce your costs by 30 to 50%,” Carandang says. “It sounds amazing, but that’s the percent most farmers spend on pesticides and fertilizer. On my farm, we have only two medicines: Lacto bacillus and ginger-garlic extract. We make both ourselves.”

Learning how to do that is what has drawn a sold-out crowd to this vegetable farm in Bolinas, California, for one of Carandang’s rare seminars in North America. (The class covered both cultivating microorganisms and making fermented plant extracts. Only the former is discussed here.)

No hifalutin nonsense, just affordable techniques that work

It’s a simple set-up, with chairs crammed into the barn and facing a makeshift stage in the packing area. At center stage stand two folding tables. On them lie the unexpected tools of this fantastic technology: A box of generic brown sugar and a bulb of garlic. A quart of milk, a cutting board, and some cooked white rice. A liter of the cheapest vodka in California, and a Miller High Life tall boy.

He sounds like a crackpot, but in fact Carandang has studied farming all over the world, including as a Fulbright scholar. (He now farms full-time back in the Philippines.) This odd display of un-magical ingredients is evidence not of a sham, but rather of his emphasis on making technology accessible. You see, discussions of beneficial microorganisms usually take one of two dangerous paths. People either get New Age-y with it and scare listeners off, or (for fear of being called New Age-y), they legitimize the concept using complicated scientific formulas—to much the same effect. Carandang takes the middle road.

“In the Philippines, I’m usually teaching people who have never been to school, and they get it fine,” he says. “We don’t need no high-falutin’ nonsense around here.”

With today’s distinctly educated, Western crowd, the message doesn’t sink in immediately. Everyone is scribbling madly to keep up with Carandang’s patter, careful to not miss a word of the lesson. But as we are figuring out how to spell “hifalutin”, he catches us off-guard. “What matters here is that you understand the very essence of this idea. So stop taking notes, just listen.”

We lift our heads, and I realize that Carandang has been talking for an hour now and hasn’t touched a thing on the table. With an American teacher we would have photocopies of a syllabus and already be on section 2b. Instead, our teacher is circling around the subject, peeling off the outer layers of meaning, waxing on about the macrocosmic workings of Nature.

We don’t know it now, but this conceptual approach is essential to the practice we came to learn. Understanding the idea itself works as a sort of inoculant; without it, the act of Cultivating Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms is more or less useless.

“This is rather than just ‘Oh, let’s spray this, and put on this fertilizer every two weeks,” he says. “Instead, you just need to open your eyes and pay attention, slow down the process. The plant will talk back. Not literally, but it will always tell us what is wrong, what is deficient. How could you know what it needs if you haven’t paid attention?”

Growing soil, not plants: Building up the soil’s life and biodiversity

Behind Carandang and the makeshift stage is an old forest so dense and tangled you can hardly make out its individual members. It turns out it is the perfect backdrop. Promoting health and growth are the objectives of this technology, and the forest has both in spades—naturally. It’s because of its biodiversity.

We all know the biodiversity spiel: the more life a place supports, the more variation it has; that variation means competition, which regulates populations into healthy numbers. The more a place is allowed to be natural, the more it balances itself out.

Natural balance is not the goal of the farmer, his work being the cultivation of select members of the ecosystem. But again: single crops, tight geometry, and insects and weeds eliminated, altogether mean a sterile environment that can’t keep itself in check. But a farm with variegated fields and wild plants and insects that feed sparrows that feed hawks is one that begins to balance itself.

Now, few farmers import hawks to strengthen their farm ecosystems. You just can’t insert something that high up the food chain and expect it to survive. Instead, build the system that supports it, and the hawks will come on their own.

“It’s not all about NPK here,” Carandang says. “It’s not all about sun, air, et cetera, it’s all about all. It’s all about one, about a whole unit. The more you are able to understand this, the more you’ll be able to practice good farming.”

Rather than grow plants, Carandang advocates growing soil. Not multiplying dirt, but building up the soil’s life and diversity—that is the foundation of this system. And the building blocks are microorganisms, whose most essential work is to break down nutrients into forms that are accessible to plants and animals. Without them, the planet would be bare rock.

“There is a Chinese proverb that goes, ‘Add humility to intelligence, it becomes wisdom. Add passion or fire to wisdom, it becomes enlightenment,’” Carandang says. “In soil fertility, it’s the same basis, that’s my opinion. It’s the fire that makes the living soil, and the fire is the microorganisms.”

This is the part where most of the world shakes its head. No amount of microorganisms could be as effective as bringing in a load of compost or spraying fungicides. They are too small to be powerful, too unfamiliar to be essential.

And yet farmers rely on them all the time. That pink dye on legume seed, for instance, is there to tell you the seed will fix nitrogen because it has been doused with the necessary inoculant—itself a beneficial microorganism. Anyone who has ever watched a compost heap steam has seen the strength of beneficial microorganisms, and anyone who has ever taken acidophilus to recover from antibiotics has felt them at work.

Any farmer who has suffered Phytopthera or Verticillium is familiar with microorganisms, but not the good kind. Luckily, as Carandang explains, these pathogens comprise only three to five percent of all microbes. “If it were more,” he says, “we’d all be dead.”

Plants and humans are protected from pathogens by diversity—it leads to competition, which prevents any single microbe from going out of control. In the forest, this diversity comes naturally as different plants and animals attract and support different microorganisms. But if you have, say, just grapes and cover crops planted, you’re not encouraging diversity, in fact you’re discouraging it. That is why you introduce microbes.

Making microbes

But first you must have the microbes. And that, hours later, is why we are in the barn, rather cold after sitting here for so long, but patiently learning how to Cultivate Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms.

The act itself, in all its variations, might take 15 minutes to demonstrate. It’s a basic formula: Set out carbohydrates to attract microbes from a place—its air, its soil, its plants and animals. Feed the microbes sugar so they’ll multiply (or in the case of Lacto bacilli, feed them milk to encourage a specific population). Dilute the potion and apply it to whatever needs help.

If sheer diversity is the objective, then the microbes are collected from the wildest place one can find. The owner of this farm, Dennis Dierks, has wilderness at his doorstep, and so collected his microbes from the woods behind Carandang’s stage. Where there is no forest, the objective is still to find the place with greatest diversity. This could be even on the farm itself—a wild area behind the compost pile, or a healthy hedgerow. In fact, the closer to the farm, the better, as the most beneficial microbes are those naturally adapted to the ecosystem.

As the microbes are attracted and arrive to eat the carbohydrates, they go from invisible to visible, but just barely. Forest microbes are collected using cooked white rice, and success is marked by the appearance, after a few days, of mold. Lacto bacilli are heralded by the curdling of milk, other microbes simply by a sour smell to the liquid they’re in. Add some sugar, though, and the transformation is mind-blowing.

Last year, I saw Dierks’ brews as they came to life in his potting shed. They weren’t pretty, mostly soupy brown liquids in jugs and buckets, but the life inside them was astonishing. He went to give me a smell of one, labeled “Root Brew,” only to find the bottle cap had been sealed on by liquid seeping out from inside. He wrenched the plastic bottle between his hands, pulled, and bang! The cap popped off and liquid exploded all over the shed.

We stood there for a moment, our bare arms and faces and shirts brown and wet, Dennis holding what had become a sated volcano, calm but still dribbling out lava. “If this were chemicals we would be totally poisoned right now,” he said, “not to mention out of a lot of money. But that’s the beauty of it. Instead, your skin feels soft. It feels alive. And it’s free. I haven’t been this excited about farming for 25 years.”

Later in the season, several of Dierks’ long-time customers commented that his produce tasted better than in years past, and was keeping for longer. Meanwhile, Diane Matthews, another local farmer who had learned Carandang’s techniques, was using her own microbe brew to fight off the Phytopthera that was decimating her raspberries. “The plants were supposed to die,” she said at the workshop. “I didn’t know what would happen, but I figured I’d try the forest microbes. What happened was the Phytopthera disappeared. I got a crop at Thanksgiving! The berries were small, but their taste was excellent.”

The specific power of Lacto

Carandang explains that one can also home in on specific microbes for targeted results. The most useful is Lacto bacillus. This microorganism is the workhorse of the human digestive system (though luckily it is also found elsewhere). On the farm it’s used for similar tasks of digestion, something Dierks was relieved to hear last winter after the NOP had mandated that all manure be fully broken down before use. He applied his L. bacillus culture to the mound of manure beside his field, and the composting was faster than ever. Similarly, when sprayed on plants, L. bacilli will digest the biomass on the leaves and stems—dust, for instance, or mud—thus making that free food available to its host.

“Lacto” is the only microbe Carandang will mention by name, but it is only one of millions that can be collected and used. His instructions are characteristically simple: walk around the farm, find elements you want to reproduce, and collect the microbes that surround them. You could get the microbes from around a particularly robust tomato plant and spray that on next year’s crop. (These concoctions last for months, even years.) To make a growth promoter, find a beanstalk growing like mad, clip the leaves at the top of vine (where all the growth is happening) and make a brew of the resident microbes. Do it with bamboo, or even kelp, which grows inches each day.

“In the Philippines, we use water lettuce,” Carandang says. “We spray it on the cucumbers and boom! You can do that and be three or five days ahead of the other local farmers. If you’re a market gardener, that can be a big deal.”

After talking for nearly seven hours straight, Carandang ends the workshop because the daylight is starting to fade. The energy in the barn only rises. Despite the chill in the air and the stiff legs it granted us, we are all now bustling about, discussing how we plan—already—to put the technology to work.

Alan Mart does organic landscaping and soil management plans. His first thought is to collect the microbes from willow roots, which suffer no transplant shock, and apply them to other, more fragile specimens that he’s planting.

Patty Salmon is a goat rancher who has been turning her farm organic for years, but has always hit a wall when it comes to feed. With only 8 acres, she can’t possibly grow all the grain and forage for her herd of 100. Carandang explained that his brother, a chicken farmer, ferments his feed and applies Lacto bacillus to it. This causes a pre-digestion that makes a greater percentage of the nutrients available to the chickens, and results in their eating less. Salmon thinks maybe she can extend her reach by doing the same.

Also conferring are Doug Gallagher and Annabelle Lenderink, from Star Route Farms, one of the oldest and most venerated organic farms in the country. Gallagher heard about beneficial microorganisms 25 years ago, and the farm is already using some store-bought varieties to combat lettuce drop and mildew. They’ve had moderate success, though Gallagher admits they continue using them less because of quantifiable effects and more because he believes in the concept. He’s hopeful that will change with microbes collected from the farm’s forested acreage, which have evolved to thrive in that particular piece of land. And if not, well, at least they’re free.

Of course Carandang is swarmed with students and their questions after the talk. While waiting their turns, a few pick up the two clean brown bottles on the larger folding table. They contain Carandang’s own Lacto bacillus culture, made back in the Philippines. He brings them along to demonstrate a finished product, but he also has a few for sale. Frankly, though, for all his charms, he’s a terrible businessman. One workshop student carries a bottle over to him and asks the price.

“It’s ten dollars,” Carandang says, “but you don’t need to buy it. Just make your own. I guarantee it will be better.”

 

[jaykush]

good shit guano man, let you take the glory haha. suuuuuuree ;P

on another note i went hikin today and came across some Urtica dioica or more comonly known as stinging nettles. my friend touched one and got pricked was itching for a little while. i laughed at him and remembered a experiment i did last year. nettle leaves are extremely good as a garden tea.

heres some info, its really hard to find the garden info for this. most people use it for medical uses.

Many of the benefits are due to the plant's very high levels of minerals, especially, calcium, magnesium, iron, potassium, phosphorous, manganese, silica, iodine, silicon, sodium, and sulfur. They also provide chlorophyll and tannin, and they're a good source of vitamin C, beta-carotene, and B complex vitamins. Nettles also have high levels of easily absorbable amino acids. They're ten percent protein, more than any other vegetable.

anyways i used this tea on two plants from the same mother, same soil mix, same feedings except for the nettles. the one with the nettles tea was stronger and the high lasted a lot longer (hour+) i only got one run in but ive heard same results from a few people.

anyone familiar with this? seems to have a lot of things the plant could benefit from. maybe even part of the homemade LK mix.