Opinions on supersoil ingredients ?

[regrat]

Hey

I would like your opinions on following ingredients for supersoil:

- Some good storebought soil for base, reused now
- Compost
- Wormcastings
- Biochar
- Perlite
- Zeolite
- Pumice
- Azomite
- Alfalfa
- Kelp meal
- Crustacean meal
- Soybean meal
- Fish meal
- Bone meal
- Humic acid
- Blood meal (Possibly not if I can't find it)

I'm not sure if I have enough PK in the mix, there's a couple ingredients I wanted to add but can't find em anywhere.

Do you think the mix will work well ? Any suggestions ?

Thanks!

 

[art.spliff]

Have you checked numbers on Build A Soil's calculator? If you're amending existing soil a soil test will help. Common base ingredients include forest compost, coco coir, fir bark pieces or shredded bark, peat moss, lava rock. When I mixed soil last year using Down To Earth's Vegan Mix I added more than the bag suggested. More worm food I guess.

The difference mixing a super soil and using tap water from the hose, is significant compared to inert media and mixing solution to feed. Less work and more success for perhaps/possibly average novice and experienced cultivator.

........................… Plant seeds in dirt cost: -
Pharmaceutical chemistry inert media cost: -----

 

[regrat]

I thought about doing a soil test, but they're so expensive here...

As far as the numbers, I threw together a list with 8 different recipes and I'll go with median amount of ingredients suggested across different recipes. Usually comes out about the same.

 

[regrat]

I just wish I could find some langbeinite or greensand here in EU... If anyone knows where to buy some let me know

 

[YukonKronic]

Hey

I would like your opinions on following ingredients for supersoil:

- Some good storebought soil for base, reused now
- Compost
- Wormcastings
- Biochar
- Perlite
- Zeolite
- Pumice
- Azomite
- Alfalfa
- Kelp meal
- Crustacean meal
- Soybean meal
- Fish meal
- Bone meal
- Humic acid
- Blood meal (Possibly not if I can't find it)

I'm not sure if I have enough PK in the mix, there's a couple ingredients I wanted to add but can't find em anywhere.

Do you think the mix will work well ? Any suggestions ?

Thanks!

Lol I have all that except Soy meal... and then some. Pay attention to your aeration ratios. The Zeolite and char count as well as the perlite and pumice. If you get too loose a mix your going to be getting closer to a Hydro style feed schedule just based on amount of water going through. I had to add peat back in at one point because I had gone too far and was watering every day in a 150gallon bed.

I would also use a couple sources of liming in that mix I think. Dolomite as well as straight crushed oyster shells. Rock dust and clays are missing in my opinion. Both will assist with PH as well as contribute to Tilth (learn and live this word) and CEC.
Read SlowNickels thread on CEC and Calcium, I began focusing on keeping CEC saturated with Calcium and Phosphorus because they are less mobile in soil.
Micronized Greensand is a great additive too and will work with Azomite to give you all the micro nutrients you need.

I cannot recommend having actual worms composting cannabis waste on top of your soil enough. Yes it can lead to fungus gnats etc... growers should know how to fight them anyway.
Ya can’t beat nature. Weed grows in dirt made from other weed most times out in Nature..

 

[bsgospel]

Yeah your source of calcium is important. Dolomite is useful if your numbers are under 100ppm (Mg), gypsum is useful closer to going over pH 7. A straight carbonate source is best for middle of the road. I know we're in the organic forum but there must be some form that will be mineralized in a relatively neutral fashion that can provide calcium fractionation in a way that's useful.

 

[KIS]

Here's an article I wrote a while back that I pulled from our blog page. I've pasted it below. That being said, without a soil test and with the ingredients you list above, I would aim for around 30-34% aeration (pumice, perlite, possibly the zeolite or biochar based on size). You probably don't need to add any more P or Ca, my guess is based on tests I've seen from homemade recipes so it's a total generalization. I also don't think you "need" blood meal and fish meal. Both are high N sources. Same with soybean and crustacean, I'd ditch the soybean unless you have a cheap organic source of it.


There are many recipes out there for mixing your own potting soil. I've tried a bunch over the years, including most of the commercially produced soils on the market like Ocean Forest or Pro Mix. I'm convinced that with a little bit of work, you can produce your own soil using many local products and not only save money but make a much better soil for your plants.

Let me give a little history on our soils and how I started the process of learning about mixing soils. It started back in 2005 when I met a man in Portland who goes by the online handle of "Clackamas Coot" and "Lumperdawgz" on various growing forums. He came to talk I was giving on compost teas and I soon discovers he was a wealth of information. After numerous emails and long phone conversations, he gave me the basics for making soil, for which I'm eternally grateful. I spent 2 years testing and refining our soil mix and Nutrient Pack for local growers through trials at the local horticulture college, direct microscopy, and soil tests. I hope some of that knowledge and experience can be shared here to save you time!

1. It starts with a good base mix. My preference is approximately 50% sphagnum peat moss, 33% aeration (we use 1/3 large and 2/3 medium pumice in our soils), and 17% high quality compost and/or earthworm castings. Many people will go with 1/3 peat, 1/3 aeration, and 1/3 compost. I chose to adjust this based on research showing around 20% to be the optimal amount of earthworm castings on potting mix. You can also use coco coir or other substrates instead of peat moss but see my article on peat vs coco for why peat is my hands down choice.

2. The next thing to consider is your major nutrients (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, and sulfur). These are all vital for plant growth so you'll want to add amendments that provide these in both fast release and slow release forms. I like to use volume as my form of measurement over weight and a good rule of thumb is to add approximately 1/4-1 cup per cubic foot of soil of any given amendment to be safe. You can look at the N-P-K on an amendment to see what % of each macro-nutrient it contains. For example, organic fish meal is a fast release nitrogen source and is typically around 10% nitrogen and 4% phosphorus. This will give a plant a good start in root development and vegetative growth early in the plants life. However, you'll also want some slower release nitrogen sources like crustacean meal or feather meal so the plant can receive nutrients throughout its life cycle.

3. Trace minerals and micro-nutrients are important! This is where most commercially produced soils are lacking in my opinion. I like to add kelp meal (70 elements, plant growth hormones and regulators, etc..), rock dusts, and good earthworm castings to ensure the plant will get everything it needs to be both healthy and nutrient dense.

4. Calcium and magnesium are important to have and in the proper ratios. Most soils are deficient in calcium. Earthworm castings help provide calcium but you'll want to add lime, gypsum, soft rock phosphate, or oyster shell flour to increase your calcium to around 70% of your CEC (cation exchange capacity) and magnesium around 10%. Together they shouldn't exceed 80% of your CEC. Now you may be wondering what CEC is. Without getting to technical, think of CEC as a giant sponge that contains all the nutrients the soil is able to hold. The higher the CEC, the more nutrients the soil can hold and the more nutrients you'll need to add to "fill" the sponge. A CEC around 25-35 is ideal for what we are trying to accomplish. Don't worry about this calculation, a $25 standard soil test from Logan Labs will give you this information and help you to adjust your recipe as needed.

5. One of the most important aspects is biological diversity and biomass in your soil mix. This is what creates nutrient cycling and makes all these great ingredients actually available to the plant. Ideally you would make your own compost in a worm bin or static compost pile, but this takes time and is not something practical in all situations. If you are having to buy compost or worm castings, look for companies that have done biological testing on their product and are willing to share it. At the very least, don't buy cheap municipal compost or something that's been sitting on a shelf for a long time or baking in the hot sun in a parking lot and expect it to have good healthy microbes. Aerated compost teas are another excellent way to increase the microbial activity in your soil if you're worried about the quality of your compost.

There are many free recipes out there. This one from Clackamas Coot is a good starting point for many people. Don't get caught up in having the exact ingredients, as you can substitute for things you can find locally. Have fun experimenting and seeing how your plants respond!

For a detailed guide on the actual mixing process, you can follow the steps found here.

Clackamas Coot's Recipe

1/3 Sphagnum Peat Moss

1/3 Aeration (pumice, perlite, lava rock, etc..)

1/3 Compost + Earthworm Castings

To each 1 c.f. of this mix I add the following:
1/2 cup organic Neem meal
1/2 cup organic Kelp meal
1/2 cup Crab meal or Crustacean meal
4 cups of Mineral Mix aka rock dust

Mineral Mix Recipe
1x – Glacial Rock Dust
1x – Gypsum
1x – Oyster Shell Flour or Agricultural Lime
1x – Basalt

6. Plan on re-using your soil. Your living soil will improve over time as the microbes cycle nutrients and build soil structure. It's important to remember that each time you harvest a plant, you're removing nutrients and organic matter from the soil. Those will need to be replaced each cycle. You can use our Nutrient Pack or come up with your own re-amendment recipe. In addition, I suggest adding approximately 1 cubic foot of high quality compost or earthworm castings per yard of used soil to get that organic matter back in the soil. Also, plan on adding aeration back in at whatever level is necessary to maintain your porosity and drainage. We find that approximately 1 cubic ft per yard, every other cycle, works well in most cases.

7. Let your soil sit. It's best if you can let your soil cook for at least 2 weeks, but up to a month is optimal. This allows the microbes to begin breaking down these amendments and cycling them into plant-available forms. It also prevents any burning from the soil being "too hot." Be sure to maintain proper moisture content during this time. The easiest way to determine this is if you grab a clump of soil and squeeze it in your hand, it should almost stay together but break into a few smaller chunks and feel like almost a drop of water can be squeezed out of it.

 

[h.h.]

https://newenglandvfc.org/sites/newenglandvfc.org/files/content/proceedings2015/22_1_Hoskins.pdf

https://extension.oregonstate.edu/s...uments/1/lc437organicfertilizersvaluesrev.pdf


I like the soy. It kind of compliments the fish meal. One picks up where the other leaves off.
If i ferment part of it along with part of the fish meal, I can see where it carries my nitrogen at a steady rate for the entire grow.
I push my aeration with the zeolite and char. They’ll hold more water and nutrients than the perlite and I think the pumice.
I also use par boiled rice hulls.
Lots of cellulose.
I barely water.I really don’t fertilize.

 

[regrat]

Damn, thanks everyone, that's a lot of good information. I'm excited for my first supersoil grow, hopefully it turns out well

 

[regrat]

I do have one more question though... I mixed all the ingredients today and I'm wondering, how warm does the soil get if everything is working correctly ? How long to start warming up ? Can't find the answer to this question on google

 

[h.h.]

It shouldn’t warm up.

 

[pumpkinpie eyes]

if yer pile is built correctly, it will heat up within 24 to 36 hours to the ideal temperature of 141°F to 155°F and will maintain itz temperature for several dayz to a week or longer.

you need 2 partz carbon like dead leavez, wood chips, paper to 1 part nitrogen, green material but no animal poop to cauze breakdown in compost.

 

[h.h.]

if yer pile is built correctly, it will heat up within 24 to 36 hours to the ideal temperature of 141°F to 155°F and will maintain itz temperature for several dayz to a week or longer.

you need 2 partz carbon like dead leavez, wood chips, paper to 1 part nitrogen, green material but no animal poop to cauze breakdown in compost.

I’m talking soil.
You’re talking compost.
We’re both right.

 

[St. Phatty]

if yer pile is built correctly, it will heat up within 24 to 36 hours to the ideal temperature of 141°F to 155°F and will maintain itz temperature for several dayz to a week or longer.

you need 2 partz carbon like dead leavez, wood chips, paper to 1 part nitrogen, green material but no animal poop to cauze breakdown in compost.

Why no animal poop ?

The one time I had access to Nitrogen (peas & beans, about a ton), we also used manure. Duck manure, in that case.

But our access to the peas & beans was not a coincidence. They were grown in the college garden, partially to provide feed-stock for the hot compost class.

Sometimes manure is the primary nitrogen source.

e.g. young worker hired to muck out goat stalls etc.

Straw + manure. I remember the guy said, "it got hot".

actually his compost story came after a minor car accident, a fender bender. He backed into my truck, we ended up talking about compost.

 

[regrat]

I gave my soil that I mixed yesterday a good shuffle and some more water, it definitely warmed up a little bit since yesterday, and lost most of the fishy smell from fish meal and crustaceans

 

[aridbud]

Why no animal poop ?

The one time I had access to Nitrogen (peas & beans, about a ton), we also used manure. Duck manure, in that case.

But our access to the peas & beans was not a coincidence. They were grown in the college garden, partially to provide feed-stock for the hot compost class.

Sometimes manure is the primary nitrogen source.

e.g. young worker hired to muck out goat stalls etc.

Straw + manure. I remember the guy said, "it got hot".

actually his compost story came after a minor car accident, a fender bender. He backed into my truck, we ended up talking about compost.

Asked Bud Green Sr. to explain and mention his experience. Hope he'll chime in.

 

[aridbud]

Well, just like bone and blood meal....there's sick animals where meat cannot be consumed, so the blood/bone/feather meal, carcass is still rendered. Once I found out Steer manure is from feed lots with heavy antibiotic and hormone use, I quit buying it.

Too, pet feces can contain worms, parasites I don't want in my medium. Ugh!

We use kelp or alfalfa, amendment, helping break down with vines that help build up soil.

Can't say the reason above for compost and animal poop.

Found breaking down matter can be vegetarian!!! ;o)

 

[dank.frank]

Not sure if you want a bunch of gibberish thrown at you or if you actually want to be able to build your soil properly.

There is a significant difference between what you've already been told and what actually works in long term soil maintenance scenarios.

With that in mind, this chart, expresses the weight (in grams) of various amendments in different volumes, per cup. Keeping in mind, the brand or formulation of the material can change the weight, but this chart is certainly better than not having the information at all.

These weights can be converted to pounds (lbs), dividing them by 454 and then plugged into these equations, for figuring out NPK values in pounds per acre.

The first formula, will tell us how much of any given amendment to apply to achieve a desired nutrient level within a known planting area.

[(pounds per acre needed/square foot in an acre) x sq ft to be fertilized] / elemental percentage of fertilizer being applied

Example: A soil test says you need to apply 120 lbs per acre of P. You decide to use steamed bone meal. 2-14-0. Let's assume you have a 2' x 5' soil bed, so 10 sq ft.

[(120 lb/acre / 43,560 sq ft/acre) x 10 sq ft] / 0.14 = 0.1968 lbs of 2-14-0 steamed bone meal to provide 120 lbs of P to the 10 sq ft bed.

However, notice we also applied nitrogen in the bone meal. So that brings us to the second necessary formula, which is a simple 3 part process.

A. weight of fertilizer applied x percent of elemental nutrition
B. Square Foot per acre / square foot fertilized
C. A x B

To continue with the example above, in the process of applying the bone meal to get 120 lbs of P, we also added:

A. 0.1968 lbs bone meal x 0.02 (nitrogen) = 0.0004
B. 43,560 sq ft per acre / 10 sq ft = 4,356
C. 0.004 x 4,356 = 17.424 lbs of N applied

This should help anyone who is actually getting soil tests done and trying to adjust accordingly.

There are many ways to build and maintain a soil. Some better than others. Some based on actual science.

If you knew what NPK goals you want to achieve in your soil, you could easily make a custom formulation that would provide exactly what you need given the amendments that you have readily at your disposal. (If you want to learn more about the custom NPK values I developed and have been utilizing, you'll have to read my thread.)

I would post my mix in here, but I see little value in posting something that isn't going to be adhered to. I'll never understand why anyone would take a mix that is proven work, or rather multiple mixes that are proven to work - come up with some amalgamation concept that likely won't work - and then holds everyone whose mix they bastardized why their soil mix doesn't work.

It's a common fallacy. It's best, especially when starting out, to either follow something exactly as is, that way you can get real advice if any issues arise from others doing exactly the same - or use sound science and math to build a proper amendment mix based on what you have available.

Or...try, try, try again...as the saying goes.

Good luck!



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

Well, just like bone and blood meal....there's sick animals where meat cannot be consumed, so the blood/bone/feather meal, carcass is still rendered. Once I found out Steer manure is from feed lots with heavy antibiotic and hormone use, I quit buying it.

Too, pet feces can contain worms, parasites I don't want in my medium. Ugh!

We use kelp or alfalfa, amendment, helping break down with vines that help build up soil.

Can't say the reason above for compost and animal poop.

Found breaking down matter can be vegetarian!!! ;o)

In nature, the soil is replenished (fertilized) by MANY different things, primarily, via the death and/or decay (decomposition) of other living/non-living matter. On any given day an animal may excrete it's feces on the land which is later washed in by rain and decomposed by soil micro-organisms and eventually made usable again for roots (plants) to utilize. Animals live out their lives and die, their entire bodies: fur (feather) flesh, bone, blood, hoofs, etc. - ALL decomposes back into the earth (soil) to replenish itself for another year. When all the trees (or any plant for that matter) let go their leaves - they fall to the ground, trapping moisture encouraging bacterial growth and begin to decompose, eventually helping restore the land for another season of growth...

It's nature. It's a process. It's diverse. Any part or element that occurs and is present in nature, I want present in any soil I attempt to recreate for myself. This means REAL DIRT is essential to having a proper medium...as is variety of input. The key to increased microbial soil activity is providing a diverse range of stimuli to produce a diverse range of reactions within the medium, increasing it's "nutritional value" and exponentially increasing the environment (root zone) have to thrive within.

My thoughts on that. Nothing against anyone doing the veganic thing for whatever reason they deem necessary, but it certainly isn't representative of real world scenarios in a broader sense. But then again, let's not go down that rabbit hole, artificial lighting, etc, blah blah.



dank.Frank

 

[Chunkypigs]

Hey

I would like your opinions on following ingredients for supersoil:

- Some good storebought soil for base, reused now
- Compost
- Wormcastings
- Biochar
- Perlite
- Zeolite
- Pumice
- Azomite
- Alfalfa
- Kelp meal
- Crustacean meal
- Soybean meal
- Fish meal
- Bone meal
- Humic acid
- Blood meal (Possibly not if I can't find it)

I'm not sure if I have enough PK in the mix, there's a couple ingredients I wanted to add but can't find em anywhere.

Do you think the mix will work well ? Any suggestions ?

Thanks!

I've used almost all of those amendments in the past with good results but the key is getting the amounts correct.

this year for my outdoor I started with this recipe from a long time member with lots of experience and modified it a bit based on what's available cheaply on the east coast.

It's not that simple as a smaller pot will just give you a smaller plant. They will be so much harder to keep healthy the whole year. That plant will grow and grow until it runs out of nutrients. Either it won't be healthy, or it will still get just as big as a bigger pot. Only the plant will just want to grow tall and skinny. because it has no lateral roots. Plants naturally only want to grow a little wider then their roots. It would suck to have a 16ft tall, 4ft wide, unhealthy plant that can't fight off disease come flower time. Larfy buds with rot from dying leaf can be likely. If i wanted smaller plants, id use a 100 but plant a teeny tiny clone like July 1st. You can plant a clone june 1st that will totally max out a 300 gal.

As far as coots mix goes, i think it's wayy expensive and won't do anything a cheaper mix wont do. That rock dust is going to take 100 years to break down to do anything for you. But i really like the texture of the coots being 1/3 compost, 1/3 drainage, 1/3 fluff.
I follow the same ratios with less expensive ingredients.
I do something like
1 part lava rock
1 part perlite
1 part coco
1 part fir bark or peat
1 part cow manure compost
1 part green waste compost

For amendments per yard
37.5 lb of shutzman chicken pellets
10 lb of fishbone
2 lb calphos
2 lb langbeinite
1 lb potash
10 lb alfalfa
Ph balance with lime if necessary. But that should be balanced without it.

No compost tea, no liquid feeding. A couple light top dressings if you are feeling frisky. That will give you more nutrients available the first year at 1/2 the price. Next year get a soil sample and balance minerals to Albright ratios.

That's just what has worked best for me over the years. Kind of part coots mix, part Tom hill mix, with a dash of my own style.

what I used in the end after testing some mixes that were not as hot was this.

15 gallons old coots mix
7 gallons chunky perlite
7 gallons green compost from wood chips
5 gallons manure compost
1 gallon worm castings
1 gallon clay mix from my pond instead of rock dusts and azomite
10 cups chicken manure pellets
4 cups gypsum
3 cups alfalfa meal
3 cups bone meal
2.5 cups kelp
2.5 cups rock phosphate
1 cup humic acid
1/2 cup triple super phosphate

I had no time to let this "cook", I was up potting into this and didn't see any troubles with 20 of the popular clones I ran, one did claw up and look a bit stressed though.

I top dressed additional EWC, gypsum, langbienite, alfalfa, chicken manure, kelp and some guanos two or three times depending on size etc.

most plants were in 10 gallon bags with about 30 in mounds on top of limed and green compost amended native soil.

I invested about $800 on this 60' x 12' patch.

quality was super but the awesome weather helped too.

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