open spaghetti pvc manifolds discussion

[freeradical]

So let me get this straight. If i use a large enough pump to create the max pressure in my manifold thru the feed lines then i will get even distribution because each line is at its max psi rating. So if this is true, why are all theses people making manifods for purpose of even water distribution, when you could just run a line of hose/pvc, cap it off at the end, and install feed lines...?

People don't use drippers because they can clog, it's another expense, and it requires a pump that operates at a higher pressure. Keep in mind when I say drippers, I mean what's shown below (something that restricts water output and increases pressure). Open 1/8" tubes are not what I would consider a dripper. It can be a drip system without using actual drippers. People have trouble getting even water distribution with open spaghetti tubes, but the smaller the tube diameter, the more pressure. With MANY drip sites, however, it all adds up to losing a lot of pressure, reducing the evenness of distribution.

 

[BlindDate]

smurfin'herb, keep in mind BlindDate recommends drippers for use with a diaphragm pump. Although the distribution is guaranteed to be even, you have to buy a buttload of drippers. I'm in the same boat as you, I am looking for a drip system for 64-128 sites. I'm debating going with a bed of coco and using a high pressure pump with a soaker hose, but this may be more trouble than I want. I want to avoid using drippers and use 1/8" open lines from a manifold, but have no idea how to keep the distribution even with open lines.

128 x 1/8" lines has the same flow area of a one and a half (1 1/2") inch tube. You will have to use drippers with that many lines.

Drippers never clog when the pump is doing 50 psi with an inline filter. Drippers allow the medium to do a slow soak throughout the container. Open lines will saturate a local area and make a bee-line to the bottom. This is especially true in shallow containers.

Drippers are dirt cheap so who cares.

If you feel that you absolutely must use open spaghetti lines, then go to a smaller size. Not 1/8"

In this setup I'm using open 1/16" diameter lines only because there are so few of them (21) that I still get even distribution.

 

[smurfin'herb]

those are 1/16" ? they jus look like 1/4 inch in the pic.....
So if use a 50psi pump, they will NEVER clog...? What size drippers do u reccomend... 3gph? Im still confused on the pump thing. I need to know what a diaphragm pump is, and how it differs from utility pumps and sump pumps, and where i can find one...? Are they availiable at lowes/ home depot?

 

[smurfin'herb]

People don't use drippers because they can clog, it's another expense, and it requires a pump that operates at a higher pressure. Keep in mind when I say drippers, I mean what's shown below (something that restricts water output and increases pressure). Open 1/8" tubes are not what I would consider a dripper. It can be a drip system without using actual drippers. People have trouble getting even water distribution with open spaghetti tubes, but the smaller the tube diameter, the more pressure. With MANY drip sites, however, it all adds up to losing a lot of pressure, reducing the evenness of distribution.

Ive been using flag drippers, are those ones in the pic better....? Can you take em apart to unclog them if they do build up?

Also i was thinkin, since the open feed lines tend to lead to uneven watering, what if you found a timer that you time by seconds, you could just drip a lot of times using small amounts instead of less time and more amount...

 

[smurfin'herb]

Thanks for the good replies everyone, badugi kindly pointed out to me that i was asking too many questions and not using the advice given. I apologize. So those sureflow diaphragm pumps arent submersible then?

And im seeing the term horsepower and bars thrown around in the pump world. What do they mean?
Ive been lookin at pics of utility pumps and diaphragm pumps, and they look very similar, are they at all? thx again

 

[BlindDate]

Thanks for the good replies everyone, badugi kindly pointed out to me that i was asking too many questions and not using the advice given. I apologize. So those sureflow diaphragm pumps arent submersible then?

No, they are not submersible. They can suck as well as pump so they do not have to sit in the rez.
If you buy one, make sure it's 115VAC. If you Google them put in 115 VAC to find.

Get a catalogue from "U.S. Plastics" for fittings and such. They have EVERYTHING we need. "Dripworks" will have the rest.

Also i was thinkin, since the open feed lines tend to lead to uneven watering, what if you found a timer that you time by seconds, you could just drip a lot of times using small amounts instead of less time and more amount...

So if you drip unevenly using small amounts it's better than dripping unevenly in large amounts? It's all uneven. I don't get it!

 

[smurfin'herb]

Sorry u misunderstood blinddate. Im not talking bout the drippers watering unevenly, im talkin about how the water "bee-lines" down to the bottom of the medium without fully wetting the medium. I can see its pretty easy to misinterpret what i was talkin bout in that issue.

Also, So once i get this sureflow pump, is there any home depot or lowes type of store that would be local where i could pick up plastic fittings so i can attach the pump to the hose...? I have ordered over 10grand of equip in the last month and im sick of ordering stuff and waiting. Is the internet the only place i can get the fittings i need?

 

[badugi]

No just look around. Find a pipe thread to hose thread adapter if that's what you're looking for. Or thread-to-slip PVC coupling if that's what you're doing. Or whatever. Just look around.

 

[smurfin'herb]

So let me get this straight. If i use a large enough pump to create the max pressure in my manifold thru the feed lines then i will get even distribution because each line is at its max psi rating. So if this is true, why are all theses people making manifods for purpose of even water distribution, when you could just run a line of hose/pvc, cap it off at the end, and install feed lines, and use a high psi pump...? In this instance, if your pump was too small, there would be more pressure at the capped end of your delivery lines right? Im just trying to clarify that im taking this info in correctly.


I thought the whole point was to reach the spaghetti lines max psi output, and no matter how even the tubing is, everything will output the same because all feed lines are at max pressure and cannot emit any more water then they already are.

Am i right with this whole max psi rating idea of the feed lines? And at what point is a 100psi pump not enough, i.e. how big of a system, like this, is too big for the pumps we have availiable to us? how many sites and what size tubing?

Also, is there like a system to use when it comes to sizing manifold tubing, feed line
tubing, pumps etc. for a drip system? Theres gotta be some kind of a system. Ive read that ppl actually size their inline filters, and drip emitters according to the pump size. I think i read that spacing in the spaghetti lines was important for some odd reason (i dont see why, they were using drippers), 18'' spacing i think. I stumbled across a super detailed site bout this but it was 4a.m. and i was tired and stoned and forgot what it was called. It was bustin out percentages and psi measurements and all kinds of stuff.

 

[smurfin'herb]

So is it true that the flag drippers are NOT pressure compensated....? And that the round ones are..? I went to harbor freight today, and no sureflow pumps.. only had 12volt 50psi utility pump. So why do they rate some pumps with psi and some with 1/4 or gph? whats the diff?

 

[freeradical]

GPH rating is how much water it can pump without resistance. Head height is the same as operating pressure (PSI), except in different units. Both indicate under how much pressure the pump will operate effectively. Good pumps have a high GPH # and a high psi rating (50 is good). It won't move nearly the amount of stated GPH at higher pressures, though, since that number resembles no resistance GPH.

 

[smurfin'herb]

thanks freeradical, Now since the idea here is to max out the psi rating of each tube for equal distribution, then WHY DO PEOPLE MAKE MANIFOLDS? You shouldnt need to try to build something that will distribute evenly, if u can just run a line, cap the end off, and pressurize it to the the max it can spit out..

 

[Mr Celsius]

smurfin' I'm fairly in the dark as well. So I'm taking a shot at this... maybe we're dense or maybe the information is just confusing, so hopefully someone will simply and accurately clarify some points.

Blow you will see a diagram. This diagram is very simple. Now its my assumption, that if I use pressure regulated drippers (example: 1/4 gallon per hour) and a high PSI pump, that each one of the dripper sites should have equal flow. Am I correct in thinking this?

If I AM correct, this please, show me the proper motor and the proper dripping that wont clog. Please don't tell me a type of pump, just point me to the pump/drippers I should buy and I will do it.

 

[perpetualnewb]

i think your getting the wrong idea on maxing out pressure in the line to get even flow. flow is based on differential pressure, the greater the pressure difference, the faster the flow. the reason for building a manifold is based on the fact that in a closed system, presure will be dispersed evenly on all surfaces(this is way simplified). i think you need to google pump curves and operating curves, and this will give you more of an idea of pressure vs flowrate. and an idea to add pressure to you manifold with out changing pumps is to use water pressure. have you pump move water to another "resevoir" above the manifold conected with tubing and raise as needed. this will increase pressure in manifold without adding back pressure to the pump. now i hope i didnt ramble on too much and if anyone sees any corrections please make them, im on vacation and very stoned.

pn

 

[smurfin'herb]

This issue seems super simple. If water takes the path of least resistance, then the goal is to make every outlet the same EXACT resistance. This could be achieved by forcing pressurized water thru the outlet feed tubes until they are physically incapable of dispersing any more water then they already are, even if more pressure is added.
Anybody else agree...?

 

[icough2getoff]

^^^ I don't understand how the outlets could reach a point of making them physically incapable of dispersing any more water than they already are. I mean there are pressure devices that shoot water to cut through rock. What I'm having a hard time figuring out is how you would make something like that without creating a jet blast type of dripper that would just shoot all over the place or even if you pointed it down directly into your medium wouldn't it just blast a hole into your coco, soil, or just blast hydroton rocks and spray all around the room?

I'm starting to think that more pressure makes it more equal, but I'm still having a hard time understanding how they could all be exactly equal.

 

[headfortrinity]

When you put too much pressure behind a coupling only held together by friction, the connection comes apart. If you don't provide enough pressure then you have inconsistent flow.
I use an eight way (because that's all I need) store bought rainbird type manifold and if I put full pressure off of my mag drive pump the pump overheats and the connection between the impellor blade and magnet breaks away. My solution to the too much pressure is to regulate a T coupling off of the main line as a pressure release (I use the bypass flow to help stir the reservoir). It takes some trial and error to get the bypass right without blowing connections or creating inconsistant flow. Household water systems including outside irrigation is normally regulated to 40 psi using a pressure tank, so anything more that 50 psi is bound to blow "normal" connections. A pressure regulating filter will help but the bypass for those tend to be a hole in the side for pressure release so the water just pours out on the floor. All the standard irrigation fittings are setup to run under this pressure so instead of fighting a losing battle trying to get the materials to do something other than what they were designed to do, it makes more sense to regulate the pressure of the system to around 40 psi either by purchasing a pump that is designed for this pressure (like a booster pump for lawn irrigation which could be found at home depot) or lower the pressure of the output by running a bypass directly off the overpowered pump as I described above. So you have to account for the fact that the larger the diameter and the length of your pvc supply line running off of the pump then the higher the GPH you would need to pressurize the line to the industry standard of 40 psi.
So what I'm getting at is, buy a pump that outputs 40 - 50 psi with an output main line in the 1/2 or 3/4" size depending on the amount of water your trying to flow at the emitters (50- 1gph emitters would be 50gph) to play it safe get a little larger pump than what you calculate because you can always pressure regulate the main by running a bypass. Also don't buy a pump that has metal parts that will be constantly exposed to nutrient solution because the high salts content will make them rust and give you problems (i.e. the effects that saltwater has on car bodies). Magnetic drive pumps have the overheating problem I mentioned when you put too much pressure on them they are only meant to pump water with very little resistance. Sump pumps tend to have metal parts because they aren't made for continous duty. Diaphram pumps or utility pumps are the way to go for higher pressure situations where they will be turned on and off continously. If I were running as many plants as you guys I would buy something like this.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100039433

 

[smurfin'herb]

wow head! thanks for clearing this up for me! I have seen these utility pumps, but none of them have a psi rating like everyone reccomends, only a hp rating. What makes these utility booster pumps different from a shurflow rv pump that is rated at 45psi? thanks again

 

[headfortrinity]

The home depot pump is just for example. you definately want a self priming end suction centrifugal pump.
This site is very informative:
http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/pump.htm
Buying a 1/2 hp pump and running a pressure gauge on the main line and adjusting the bypass would be a somewhat easy way around all the calculations.
Hope this helps

 

[headfortrinity]

wow head! thanks for clearing this up for me! I have seen these utility pumps, but none of them have a psi rating like everyone reccomends, only a hp rating. What makes these utility booster pumps different from a shurflow rv pump that is rated at 45psi? thanks again

Not much difference, you just want to be sure it can deliver that pressure across the entire line and is corrosion resistant. The web site that I posted has all the calculations if you want to do it scientifically. The ECO Plus 230 hydro pump looks pretty nice to me. And you can order it from most any hydro store.