Old House Wiring help Q:

[Sleestak420]

My old house has non grounded 2-wire receptacles/plugs.
Is it possible to use a 400watt HID light system on its own 20 amp circuit with a 20 amp GFCI receptacle?

Or use the 3prong adapter? or??

 

[Guest]

Yes you can, sleestack. Those things use a comparison of the amperage on the power line, and the amperage on the neutral line, and if those two ever get more than about 5 thousandths of an amp different, the thing flips. It's not.... precisely and specifically speaking, 'Ground fault' interruption since there's no ground: but what it is, is precision circuit breaking using electronic comparison in a circuit known as a ''comparator'' circuit.

Since you're in the hobby now, I may as well tell ya to find out how many amperes a device pulls, you find what voltage it works on: divide the number of watts on it's listing panel/label by that voltage: and that is the number of amperes it draws.

 

[Guest]

Regarding your Main Panel, does it have: 1. Screw in fuses 2. Push Button Breakers 3. Toggle switch breakers? Inside the panel is/are there Bare copper wiring attached to the metal panel itself. How many circuits/breakers are in the panel? WHAT is your guesstimate of the age of the home? Some of the older wiring, without 3 prong receptacles, have a bare copper wire physically attached to the metal outlet box and run common to all of the boxes on the circuit. Other older systems incorporate a metal (armor clad housing) around the wiring instead of the modern Romex synthetic type covering. The earliest wiring is 2 conductor and referred to as "Knob and Tube" where the wiring penetrates wood members through a white ceramic tube and/or runs through attic spaces attached to a 2 piece ceramic knob and held in place to the structural members, usually with a nail.

Check it out and get back with some accurate info for answers.

Ty-Stik

 

[Sleestak420]

house was built in 1960-1961.
Main service panel is 200 amp.
I believe the breakers in this panel are toggle switch style? they all look like horizontal light switches.
I have not taken the cover of the panel.

I plan to use only the 400 watt HID on one of the many 20 amp circuits.
I wanted to get the facts and saftey info 1st before I go messing with things.
No grounded plugs in this house is a bummer.

So I can just flip-off the power and install the GFCI receptacle?

 

[Sleestak420]

I plan on using a timer with a extension cord as well.
Thanks for the help guys. Just want to make sure this is not a recipe for disaster.
I'm not an Idiot but when it comes to wiring I don't have much experience.
I can wire up receptacles though!

BTW all the wiring I've seen behind the receptacle plates are 2 wire, so without a doubt there are no ground wires.

 

[manitu]

I would'nt even consider using ungrounded stuff in a enviroment with 60-80%RH

I consider it plain stupid!

.manitu

 

[Guest]

I plan on using a timer with a extension cord as well.
Thanks for the help guys. Just want to make sure this is not a recipe for disaster.
I'm not an Idiot but when it comes to wiring I don't have much experience.
I can wire up receptacles though!

BTW all the wiring I've seen behind the receptacle plates are 2 wire, so without a doubt there are no ground wires.

If you need help you need to answer some questions, Okay? Plug a table lamp into an outlet(s) you intend to use, turn it on and have someone watch the lamp while you systematically turn off 20 amp breakers at the panel one by one until the lamp goes off. Now go back and remove the cover plate and unscrew the receptacle and pull it out of the BOX, Okay? Get down on your knees and look into the box. At the back top/bottom or both should be a romex clamp secured to the box with a machine screw. DO YOU SEE bare copper wires secured to one of the screws????? Or secured by a metal grounding clip attached to one of the front edges of the box??????? The box also might be of dark brown hard plastic construction.

Pheeew !!!!! that was a long one

 

[Sleestak420]

Ty-Stik

I shut down the power and took off the receptacle plates, pulled the receptacle from the wall a few inches.

The box is metal and I can see the bare copper wires, they are very small and twisted together. they are connected to the box.
The receptacle itself has 2 black wires screwed in on one side and 2 white wires screwed in on the other side.

 

[Guest]

If that's the case then you're just a pigtail away from having it fully grounded. Loosen the clamp and put it in with the others and you're on; and you know where the grounding screw is on the receptacle.
You know about there being a load and line side on the receptacle right? If you put it correctly then the other receptacles down line from the one you put in will be gfci protected; if you don't, it'll still work but the ones down line won't be protected by the gfci.
There are various ways to find out which is which, from using a meter to hooking up one black to the receptacle and trying a lamp, then the other; i'm sure ty stik will be along to help you with it.
Good luck w/ your grow

 

[Guest]

Damned good news buddy.

Use that table lamp to find the rest of the outlets on that circuit.

Remove items as you did the first time.

Buy grounded receptacles as needed along with 6 or so feet of either 14 or 12awg bare wire.

Turn off the circuit breaker and make sure house mates leave it alone.

Detach the old receptacles one at a time, take about 7 or 8 inches of bare wire and make a hook on the end kind of like a paper clip. Loosen the screw inside the box where the bare wires are attached and hook and tighten the new wire in place. Now hook up the ground, neutral and hot to your new 3-prong grounded receptacle and put it back into the box. Be neat about it and make sure the bare ground wire is tucked in at the back left side of the box.

When you attach to the new receptacles be sure the white(neutral) goes to the chrome screws and the black(hot) to the brass screws. While you are at Lowe's or Home Depot ask the guy in the electrical department for a plug in circuit tester, not expensive and you will need it. It has a series of lights and color codes right on the attached label, easy to follow instructions.

Go with this part first and let me know when you are done, PM?, whatever. This will keep you busy for a bit. By the way, is this your home?

All will be well, and by the way, don't do some f***ed up installation, do it right, do it safe. You don't want to do a shit job on electricity cause it will bite your butt, or worse.


Ty-Stik

 

[Sleestak420]

Ty-Stik

Really appreciate this

Yes its my home, paid for
I think whom ever owned the place before me wired up the ground to a drain/sewer pipe back in the laundry room area. I'll find that out later.


I bought the plug in circuit tester and have a couple new grounded receptacles.

Kingmaker, I have never installed a GFCI before but it seems easy enough and thanks for the pigtail Idea. I don't know what that is yet, but I will!
I like doing things myself, but this electrical business scares me.

Thanks again!

 

[Sleestak420]

printed out this thread for on hand basic instructions, also there are other how-to's I found on you tube as well.
Thank you

 

[Guest]

Sleestak420, being this is YOUR home, change out all of the receptacles as you have time , the parts cost very little for the piece of mind you gain.

Reference the GFCI, they are only required in WET locations such as outdoor, kitchen and bath areas.

If upon completion of the upgrade the circuit tester indicates "correct" all is ok. If it indicates otherwise let me know and I will help you trouble shoot any problem.

Also you need to have a proper ground, not sewer or water pipes as any incorrect polarity connections will energize the ground/neutral bar and electrify the piping and tickle your ass in the bathtub, shower, faucets and the like.

 

[Sleestak420]

Ty-Stik

Thanks again

I'll save up some $$$ and replace the 1960 receptacles in the house where I see bare ground wire coming into the metal box's.

As far as the ground location, I'll need to tear apart a wall in that corner of my downstairs. Needs to be done anyway because a leak from the washer is causing puddles every time it drains. I'm not sure but I think its connected to the kitchen sink directly above the laundry room. the sink does not drain properly no matter what I try. snake, drano, ect. maybe its some clog affecting the airflow? thats another story.

Anyways I have some extra 12/2 romex and some metal gang boxes laying around from the past home owners.. Kinda answers my question on why there is a funky ground in the downstairs..

 

[Guest]

Under the sink, is the P-Trap assembly metallic piping or plastic? If plastic it was installed much later in the homes "life" and the part that inserts into the in-wall drain may well be to long and close to or touching the far side of the drain pipe thus restricting flow. Home owners with little knowledge of plumbing often make this error.

Trim off th excess P-trap piping so that only about 1 1/2" extends into the in wall drain/vent circuit. Also, to verify that the drain is vented, go outside and look up to the roof. There should be a vent pipe protruding from the roof reasonably close to a point above the sink in question. Check this out and get back to me if this doesn't provide a cure. Quite often in clearing drains with an auger we take the Snake up on the roof and work it from there.

In the construction industry it is a common joke that plumbers only have to know 2 things: That "Shit runs downhill and Payday is on Friday".

 

[greengnome]

understanding what a ground does is important.

making pig tails is standard electrical and ensures if a wire breaks the circuit continues, and reduces the risk of fire dramatically. I am not going to explain a pig tail because I could take 4-5 pictures post them and you would understand the systematic method always.

Ground, is a ground, simply connecting to the ground.

The theory is if a wire breaks, it needs to go somewhere, if you don't have a ground then the 'CURRENT' doesn't get to go anywhere, break will not throw, and you will have an "ELECTRIFICATION" experience.

Where, because there is no ground, the only place the current can go is into electrifying that which it is shorting on. So, I think you can figure out what happens next, zap, or fire when you touch it next time.

Ground, if it was present, wire breaks then travels down the ground, 'not electrocuting you or electrifying the project. Throwing the breaker.

Ground simply has to be connected to something that conducts electricity and that is in the ground. A cast iron plumbing pipe is a bad ground for example. The steel guards that enter the house threw the ground if in a basement is a good choice for a ground.

Going outside and putting a piece of conductive metal bar into the ground, adding a tie off attaching a ground, bring that single ground wire into the house, then attaching it to your main Breaker Box where you should see a massive amount of ground wires all connecting to one post in there. You can ground to the outside of your power box there will be tapped screw positions, usually on the top near where the service comes in.

I guess the point is, GROUND PROPERLY! 'IMMEDIATELY' even if ground wires appear in the plug boxes don't @#$# around. Go to your main, look where the current ground wires are connected to main power panel, then GROUND main power panel.

You are at risk otherwise.

 

[Guest]

HUH? WTF?

 

[manitu]

He's trying to say , that the ground-wire in your receptables needs to be connected to the ground terminal in your main breaker-panel , and your panel must be properly grounded.

You can change the receptables yourself , piece of cake , but I would use an certified electrician to upgrade and modify your main panel and main ground connection. He can allso install a error indicator , wich turns off the power , if current leaks to ground.

.manitu

 

[Guest]

How long have you folks been in the building trades? I've been at it since 1963 with the last 32 years as a General Contractor. I try to help others help themselves, kinda of self empowerment to those that want to learn. While I make mistakes too I usually catch it on a walk through and correct it. None of us in the trades wants a Building Inspector pointing them out, that is why we check our work before proceeding to the next phase.

Sleestak420 can handle this job just fine. When he is finished with the first part we will move on to the finish, if that is what he wants to do.

 

[Guest]

Two way wireless communications since 86, in between communications gigs industrial electrician 3 years, commercial electrician right at 5. Lot of general construction before i finished the two private trade schools & got nationally certified as a wireless electronic tech; I helped build a couple of homes before I left home, my grandfather started out as a carpenter, retired from that then built some homes; i worked on those.
Renovated a couple of my own..