Old House. limited electrical. tripping breaker :(

[dasmo]

Madpenguin, thanks for the link. Checked out a couple videos.. I believe in myself!

My girlfriend spoke to someone who is an electrician apprentice or something and he said not to put in larger breakers than what's already there. So would it be safe to put a double 20 amp breaker in there? And I was planning on it all being supplied out of one outlet.

Mad.. I see you eyein' the first piece of my breaker... you could have a taste, if the price is right....

 

[afgooey]

just go in in kill the main breaker pull the one thats tripping go back in and plug in new 20 amp breaker and problem solved if u need specifics feel free to pm me

 

[kronicundrum]

Take a picture of your fuse box and post it here. You should be able to add a new 20amp fuse straight to the box, and this light will work.

No way a 5amp light should throw a breaker if it is by itself on the line. I actually have your ballast, I have a house from 1910 with a 100w breaker, and I ran a line from a new fuse I installed.

 

[dasmo]

Yeah, I took the picture but didn't have time to post it. Will do to tonight though

 

[dasmo]

meter

meter

Ok, here's a pic of the meter.. 15 amps 240Vs ? seems weak.. thoughts?

 

[madpenguin]

Oooooo.... I'll take your meter as well. 1934 Duncan.... Score. :wink:

I'm a little leary of some of the advice given here.... Please keep the comments to yourself unless you clarify them more than you have....

First off, Doesn't look like you have a main. Just 4 breakers. Please clarify if I'm wrong.

The 15A rating on your meter is the TA rating (Test Amperes). It's rated @ 240v and 60 hertz (~60). CL = Maximum Amperes.

CL = TA x (% Overload Rating / 100)

The Duncan Type MFA has an overload rating of 400% so that means your meter is rated @ 60A.

You have a couple issues that I can see off hand that all tie in together:

1.) 60A meter
2.) 70A panel
3.) 80A worth of breakers.

The rating of any one device/enclosure downstream of your meter can not exceed the rating of your meter. Take one of those breakers out and you would half-ass comply (if they are indeed all 20A breakers).

This really does call for an electrician to further diagnose. Excluding all of the above, it sounds as if you may have a faulty breaker issue as randude101 first suggested. Couldn't be sure tho.

If it were me:

I'd kill the breaker that feeds that receptacle. Pull the receptacle and check to see what kind of wire is feeding it. Is it Aluminum? Does it have a ground? What does the outer sheathing look like? (ie - What era cable are we dealing with?). How old is the receptacle?

That's where you should start first. I'll have to warn you, please make sure everything is dead before you go poking around for troubleshooting purposes. Go buy a receptacle tester and a non-contact voltage tester to make sure the receptacle is dead before you start poking around. A multimeter would work as well if you have one.

DO NOT replace your service entrance conductors (cable from meter to panel) and the actual panel as someone suggested earlier. 10:1 your municipality would require a licensed electrician to do the work as well as pulling a permit for it. Since you are renting, you cannot legally perform that work (not to mention your not qualified).

Also, the risk of a short happening when you pull the meter bell on an older meter like that is much greater than the new meters pose. I've seen a meter bell explode on someone as he was pulling it. Not only do you get a decent sized arc blast but the bell will shatter right in your face. Not trying to scare you at all, I'm just saying it's been known to happen. This is why we go to "electricians school". If working with electricity was as easy as some people tend to think around here, there wouldn't be such stringent qualifications to get a journeyman card, let alone an Electrical Contractors License.

As far as someone suggesting throwing in a double pole 20A breaker.... Huh? Do we know he's running the ballast @ 240v? I didn't read that anywhere. Are you talking about a Multi Wire Branch Circuit and splitting in into 2 - 120v branch circuits using a new 12/3 run?

Please watch your comments unless you are willing to go into more detail than just one terse sentence.....

Anyway, your trouble shooting should start on the inside of the house first. Post back if you have any more questions and please use your head and be safe.

If there's one thing you need to be constantly aware of when doing electrical work, it's the proximity of hot wires to ground. Always be aware of what's hot and whether or not you are grounded or if there are any grounded materials close by. That and crossing hot phases.

 

[madpenguin]

One more thing, I am too high to read the entire thread, is your ballast home made or anything like that. Open the cover, look for bare wires, look for soot, look for anything sooty or chard. Any copper burnt up. Anything bare?

Just saying.

That's also a good point. Make sure you have wired your ballast correctly. The behavior of your lamp when turned on might suggest as such. Don't know tho...

 

[dasmo]

Again, thanks for the post

ok, I'm kind of stupid and forgot to mention something..

There's 4 breakers on the panel but only two of them are wired.
One circuit supplies the kitchen/living room and the other circuit supplies the bedrooms. And that's it.

So my meter could still take another 20A circuit, right? :smile:



So there's the wire and case... the bare wire is almost all green with a very thin line the color of copper where it would be connecting with the receptacle and not eroding. So I'm pretty sure it's copper.

However it is not grounded.

 

[madpenguin]

That's tinned copper. Knob & Tube wiring. I wouldn't use it if I were you. Not only that, I'm not aware of any #12 K&T so your house wiring has more than likely been over fused for at least 50 years or more. That makes the sheathing on those wires crumble off if you even look at it wrong provided the house wiring has seen any significant loads during it's day.

The 2 existing 20A breakers in use should be changed out to 15A breakers.

If you want to be safe, old work a new 12/2 romex home run with a new 20A breaker. Go hit that link I posted earlier and you'll find a small section on old working. Might also want to just read thru the whole thread anyway.

But yes, You should have up to 60A on your beach house provided the inside of the meter and panel are in good shape.

Hopefully you have wood framing/plaster and not cinder block/plaster construction. That will determine how easy it is to old work a new circuit.

Let's forget about the 400w light for a moment. I wouldn't be comfortable running space heaters, a refrigerator or any other high draw appliance on that existing wiring. You can.... But me personally, I would not.

 

[dasmo]

Hi, it's been awhile.. but I have some pictures of whats behind the cover of the breaker panel

.


It looks like big screws on either side of the breakers is where it connects from the outside

I'm guessing I'll need to remove the cover to get a look at the actual breakers to know what to replace it with...

From what I can gather there are 3 not 2 branch circuits in the house.
(the one I missed before supplies 2 receptacles in the living room)

That leaves the lower left breaker that appears to be wired but I don't know where to.

So I'm thinking of replacing the lower left breaker with a 15 amp and using that as the grow breaker.

What should I expect to go wrong?

 

[madpenguin]

Lots of stuff if your not careful in an old panel. Considering the deep recession we are in, I know this isn't a good time to be spending money, but I'd suggest hiring an electrician to do this work.

It would take way too long for me to walk you through this and the fact that I can't be there to notice the little things means I really have no business telling you to screw around inside this panel in the first place.

Call your landlord, and offer to split the cost with him. Do some negotiating. If he's a slum lord and you really like the house and have no intentions of going anywhere anytime soon, then just offer to foot the entire bill.

I'm sorry dasmo, but ethically, I shouldn't be telling you to do anything inside that panel. What really needs to happen is a service upgrade to atleast a 100A panel and meter but your looking at 1 to 1.5k for that.... (maybe less considering electricians are starving for work right now).

10:1 your not going to be able to replace any breakers in that panel. Hasn't been in production for decades. New panel, new panel, new panel. That or run a new 12/2 for your grow and hook it into the left over breaker. Even that would leave me with some reservations.....

 

[dasmo]

What do you think about the cost/safety if I just upgraded to a new 60 amp panel?

 

[madpenguin]

You would have to pull the meter face to kill power to your service entrance cables. Unless of course there is a main disconnect somewhere inbetween the panel and the meter. Then you could just trip that to kill the incoming hot red wires to your panel.

Pulling the meter can sometimes be dangerous not to mention illegal as far as the power company is concerned. They'll know if you snip that little lock on it.

Replacing the panel without pulling the meter is probably even more dangerous because you have to take all the incoming wires out of there while they are hot. I've done it several times myself and it was a pretty stupid thing to do.

Were I in your situation, I would probably do it again. But, I am a journeyman electrician and am comfortable working with live electricity however stupid and asinine it may be.

Again, in good conscience, I can't tell you to do that. Were you to get hurt or killed I'm not so sure I could live with that.

If you can get a trained individual to come in and replace that panel with a 100A MLO panelboard and the incoming service cables backfed to a 60A double pole breaker, you would be a hell of a lot better off than you are now. To take it a step further, I might even backfeed a 50A DP for the main just to derate the meter a tad. That thing is getting pretty old.

That might only cost you 500 or so if you found the right (desperate) electrician.

 

[dasmo]

As always, thank you very much for your post, madpenguin

I will let you know how it goes

 

[kaotic]

I would not have mentioned a thing if i'd known what your working with. You might be a tad outdated.

 

[dasmo]

Yeah, I know someone who I think can help me out.. looks a little too much for me to tinker with

 

[dasmo]

If the electric company comes out to temporarily turn off the power, will they also require someone licensed there to verify whatever was done is Kosher before they turn it back on? or do they just turn it on/off and that's it?

If it was checked.. would the wiring trip a red flag as well?

 

[madpenguin]

If the electric company comes out to temporarily turn off the power, will they also require someone licensed there to verify whatever was done is Kosher before they turn it back on?

Yes, they should inspect it to make sure everything is as it should be. The process for this really depends on what country you live in and what area of said country you live in.

Are you in the US? I would assume so by your equipment. Some municipalities are pretty lax about pulling permits, especially if you live out in bum fuck. Talk with your electric co. and tell them you need to have some work done. Ask them if they will shut off power to your house and whether or not they will do it at the pole or just lock out your meter. Also ask if this requires a permit and/or licensed electrician.

I will remind you that you are still renting so this whole conversation is theoretical in nature.

If it was checked.. would the wiring trip a red flag as well?

Which wiring? Not your house branch circuits. They would probably like to see new service entrance cable pulled to your new panel along with a ground rod driven (which it looks as if you do not have). Not only that, if you are on city water, a ground jumper should be bonded to the line side of your water meter from your new panel.

10:1, if the POCO shuts the power off, your going to need to do a lot more than just simpily replace the panel and use all the old wiring.

Call them and ask all these questions. But again..... Your renting. Your landlord needs to be aware of, and approve, of all this work beforehand and you need to comply with any requirements that the POCO lays down as well....

 

[dasmo]

as always, thank you very much, penguin. I will post when I find out what the POCO says.

 

[dasmo]

POCO says all they do not check anything.. just a small charge for coming out.

Mad, could you steer me in a direction for a new breaker panel or distribution board?