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Nute deficiency ID help
- Thread starter hamstring
- Start date
Sorry not sure why pics are not in same post.
Can some help me with my with what I believe to be a nutrient deficiency. I am finally getting my opportunity to try a living soil type grow. I really like the simplicity of it but I need some fine tuning of my flower mix. Everything was going well in Veg. The best I have seen these two strains look. Then when I went to flower I started to see some problems. I may have waited too long but I wanted to give the soil a couple of weeks so the nutes would be available to the plants. I have two of each (4 total) of these strains and not all are showing these signs or at least not as prominent.
I hate to admit this but just few days ago I broke down and added some “Liquid KoolBloom” 0-10-10 via watering. I will continue to add it to see if it helps but I am trying to get my flower mix right for the next time.
Lighting- 600watt HPS
Temp-72 deg F
RH-40-42%
I do not PH my water.
I do not have a EC pen.
Veg-Soil Mix
1.5 gal plastic container
FFOF
20% worm castings
Dr Earth 4-4-4 (3 TBS/gallon)
Mykos Mycorrhizal (in root zone when transplanting clones)
Flower-Soil Mix
3-gal smart pots
FFOF
20% worm castings
Dr Earth 4-4-4 (3 TBS/Gal)
Dr Earth 3-9-4 (3 TBS/Gal)
Mykos Mycorrhizal (in root zone when transplanting)
The plants were 10-16inchs in height when transplanted into the flower containers. Fairly small plants. I figured that 3 Gal would suffice.
Can some help me with my with what I believe to be a nutrient deficiency. I am finally getting my opportunity to try a living soil type grow. I really like the simplicity of it but I need some fine tuning of my flower mix. Everything was going well in Veg. The best I have seen these two strains look. Then when I went to flower I started to see some problems. I may have waited too long but I wanted to give the soil a couple of weeks so the nutes would be available to the plants. I have two of each (4 total) of these strains and not all are showing these signs or at least not as prominent.
I hate to admit this but just few days ago I broke down and added some “Liquid KoolBloom” 0-10-10 via watering. I will continue to add it to see if it helps but I am trying to get my flower mix right for the next time.
Lighting- 600watt HPS
Temp-72 deg F
RH-40-42%
I do not PH my water.
I do not have a EC pen.
Veg-Soil Mix
1.5 gal plastic container
FFOF
20% worm castings
Dr Earth 4-4-4 (3 TBS/gallon)
Mykos Mycorrhizal (in root zone when transplanting clones)
Flower-Soil Mix
3-gal smart pots
FFOF
20% worm castings
Dr Earth 4-4-4 (3 TBS/Gal)
Dr Earth 3-9-4 (3 TBS/Gal)
Mykos Mycorrhizal (in root zone when transplanting)
The plants were 10-16inchs in height when transplanted into the flower containers. Fairly small plants. I figured that 3 Gal would suffice.
Hello that looks like a potassium defiency. Continue to add Liquid Bloom.
You don't have a deficiency. You have over nuted your plants. The Ocean Forest doesn't need any help upon initial use. The earthworm castings you can always use, but, you didn't need all the other additional ferts for about 14-21 days. I would go get some humic acid and water with just that for about three waterings. Or start with the humic acid then do a water molasses back to humic acid watering. That should rebalance the pH and microbes in the soil. Don't overwater.
I use a bag of Ocean Forest and a bag of Leaf mold compost mixed in a tub. If I add anything to that mix it would be earthworm castings and slow release calcium. I really like crab shells. I have used crushed oyster shell also. The Ocean Forest does seem to be lacking in calcium. That mix works for veg or flower. After 14-21 days of repot, depending on plant size, then use your nutes as directed. Horticultural molasses every watering. Keeps the soil pH balanced.
I use a bag of Ocean Forest and a bag of Leaf mold compost mixed in a tub. If I add anything to that mix it would be earthworm castings and slow release calcium. I really like crab shells. I have used crushed oyster shell also. The Ocean Forest does seem to be lacking in calcium. That mix works for veg or flower. After 14-21 days of repot, depending on plant size, then use your nutes as directed. Horticultural molasses every watering. Keeps the soil pH balanced.
Skinny
Hey brother thanks for the reply. So you think its a over fert problem vs under. It does look like potassium deficiency. I'm not doubting just asking because I followed a living soil recipe instructions. During veg they were happy as clams. I havent seen my plants so green and happy.
I see you can purchase both liquid and granular humic acid. Which one do you recommend?
Over watering, well I'm glad that came up. I used plastic pots for veg and I liked them because they didnt dry out as fast. I normally use blumats but I have been hand watering so I could learn how much water my plants need. It has been tough to get it right because smart pots dry out so quickly especially at low RH with a fan blowing. I may be overwatering but not sure yet. I lift the pots and check but this is a learning experience also.
I am beginning to wonder about the ferts though now that you bring it up. My mother plants got the same Veg soil mix and my clones havent shown roots yet at 19 days. They are still looking fine not wilted or anything but no visible roots poking out of the riot rooters yet. I have never had that before so maybe they had to much N .
My firs time with living soil so I am still learning
Use a liquid humic acid. It's not so much of an overdose of nutes problem as it is a lockout problem. It probably is a potassium lockout like El Pollo Diablo said. But, trying to just fix the one element problem won't work when it really is an imbalance issue of the soil. The humic acid will fix that imbalance especially on over fertilizations. I always use mine at 3/4 strength. So, 7-8 ounces per 5 gallon bucket. The horticultural molasses I use at about 2-3 ounces per 5 gallon bucket. The additional sulfur content in horticultural molasses will pH your tap water.
When you water with the humic acid, try to avoid excessive runoff. Humic acid will help the plant take up P. This is why you don't want excessive runoff. We want to use what is in the soil, but, make it useable again. Not flush it out. You should see an increase in flower production right after the first use.
Let a plant get to almost a wilt look then pick up the pot. You'll learn the difference real quick. It's hard to over water the bigger plants in pots.
If your clones are not wanting to root in the soil, that is a good indication the soil ain't right. I clone in my soils also.
When you water with the humic acid, try to avoid excessive runoff. Humic acid will help the plant take up P. This is why you don't want excessive runoff. We want to use what is in the soil, but, make it useable again. Not flush it out. You should see an increase in flower production right after the first use.
Let a plant get to almost a wilt look then pick up the pot. You'll learn the difference real quick. It's hard to over water the bigger plants in pots.
If your clones are not wanting to root in the soil, that is a good indication the soil ain't right. I clone in my soils also.
Hey brother not rooting clones in soil but in root riot plugs and just water. Have cloned these two strains a few times but first time no roots , well at least no roots sticking out of the plugs, in 14days. What I have done, with clones that have no roots showing but still look healthy, is stick the plugs right in a cup full of soil. Not saying it induces roots but it requires less management because they stay moist for a long time.
You burnt the crap out of your plants from excessive nutrient exposure. The real problem with your plants is you don't have a pH and an EC meter. Until you get both of these you are not going to not know what you are doing. Every organic or synthetic grower needs these meters to keep from over or under fertilizing their plants.. 
I agree that you overfertilized somewhere because those leaves that look greener then ever look too green to me which is a classic sign of too much nitrogen. Then again where I see the most of what looks too green there's not much lighting there so it could just be a trick of the lighting affecting the camera. No normally I would say this is a ph issue for two reasons, one is that you aren't checking ph so you have no real way to be sure. The second reason that is a very high percentage of what gets diagnosed as a deficiency ends up being a ph problem because the ph being off will lock out nutrients and cause what looks like a deficiency. That being said I've never really worked with a truly living soil mix. The closest I've come to that is adding Mykos Mycorrhizal to ordinary store bought all purpose gardening soil so I can't fairly say how much of a difference that plays here in your situation and if I'm being honest I kind of get the feeling you're not very open to someone telling you that you need to check ph.
The good news for you is skinnyleaf does sound like he's got plenty of experience with living soil and at least some of the products you're using so I would just defer to him and tell you to follow his advice. He also seems concerned about the ph but he seems confident on how to fix that without using a ph tester. One other thing that makes sense both because you're using it and what he's telling you, has to do with the Fox Farms Ocean Forest mix. I myself have never used it but I've seen a number of people over the years state that the feel like it's a bit on the hot side and that you have to be careful using it.
The good news for you is skinnyleaf does sound like he's got plenty of experience with living soil and at least some of the products you're using so I would just defer to him and tell you to follow his advice. He also seems concerned about the ph but he seems confident on how to fix that without using a ph tester. One other thing that makes sense both because you're using it and what he's telling you, has to do with the Fox Farms Ocean Forest mix. I myself have never used it but I've seen a number of people over the years state that the feel like it's a bit on the hot side and that you have to be careful using it.
Hempkat
Thanks for dropping in to help out. I don't know you too well but have seen you around for many years and that deserves respect in itself. Hey brother, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm not open to any kind of advice. I am all ears brother. I may not take the advice but I listen respectfully to anyone willing to offer me knowledge/advice.
I have been wanting to get a PH tester for awhile. Every time I open my wallet nothing but moths fly out. I should at least test my city water once to see where it is. I may go and try to get a cheap PH tester at the pet store. Although every time I go in they tell me they have all been bought or stolen and you wonder why rope smokers get a bad rap.
I am on board with both you and Skinny. I say that because my last grow , soil but not living soil, I had a similar issue but I was also dealing with a mite problem and I wanted to tackle one thing at a time. I got through that with help from my IC fam.
I would like to dive into "green but not too green" issue of too many nutes. So I have seen and read what too much "N" looks like. My plants in veg were a nice dark green. So how much is too much N? The plants were dark green but there as no sign anywhere of burn on the leaf tips, it all looked marvelous , "You look marvelous!"
Thinking out loud here but that was my Veg mix my Flower mix had the same same amount of 4-4-4 but also 3-9-4. That could make a big difference. As I ruminate on this I totally agree with you and Skinny I need to find out if PH is causing a lock out before I change a bunch of things. I am going to purchase some Humic Acid and Black Strap if nothing else as a learning experience.
Thank you for the advice and I promise i am listening, then using due diligence on the information provided. If I had an unlimited budget I would have a PH and EC tester. I would also have some nice LEDs and few other goodies. I just work with the resources I have guys.
Thanks for dropping in to help out. I don't know you too well but have seen you around for many years and that deserves respect in itself. Hey brother, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm not open to any kind of advice. I am all ears brother. I may not take the advice but I listen respectfully to anyone willing to offer me knowledge/advice.
I have been wanting to get a PH tester for awhile. Every time I open my wallet nothing but moths fly out. I should at least test my city water once to see where it is. I may go and try to get a cheap PH tester at the pet store. Although every time I go in they tell me they have all been bought or stolen and you wonder why rope smokers get a bad rap.
I am on board with both you and Skinny. I say that because my last grow , soil but not living soil, I had a similar issue but I was also dealing with a mite problem and I wanted to tackle one thing at a time. I got through that with help from my IC fam.
I would like to dive into "green but not too green" issue of too many nutes. So I have seen and read what too much "N" looks like. My plants in veg were a nice dark green. So how much is too much N? The plants were dark green but there as no sign anywhere of burn on the leaf tips, it all looked marvelous , "You look marvelous!"
Thinking out loud here but that was my Veg mix my Flower mix had the same same amount of 4-4-4 but also 3-9-4. That could make a big difference. As I ruminate on this I totally agree with you and Skinny I need to find out if PH is causing a lock out before I change a bunch of things. I am going to purchase some Humic Acid and Black Strap if nothing else as a learning experience.
Thank you for the advice and I promise i am listening, then using due diligence on the information provided. If I had an unlimited budget I would have a PH and EC tester. I would also have some nice LEDs and few other goodies. I just work with the resources I have guys.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003026611836.html
Pair of meters, 10$ inc P&P. Just add local taxes.. 12$?
Edit: Went into bloom using the same amount of veg food still, and the bloom on top? So two feeds. I think you figured it out.
Pair of meters, 10$ inc P&P. Just add local taxes.. 12$?
Edit: Went into bloom using the same amount of veg food still, and the bloom on top? So two feeds. I think you figured it out.
Hey guys thanks for taking interest into an old guerrillas ignorance. I'm almost starting to enjoy the pain of learning all this geez-la-weez .
Well I thought I owed it to Skinny and Hempkat for the great advice to show this. I went out and bought a PH kit from the pet store.
As you can see the PH was just fine-------pause for comedic affect-------Stay in your lane bro thats way out of line.!
I took the test twice and there are two PH color coded listings, one for water and salt water. When you look at it up close its between a 8 and 8.5. So I'm sure this must be part of the problem.
Skinny,
Should I hold off on the humic acid until I get the PH issue straightened out?
Well I thought I owed it to Skinny and Hempkat for the great advice to show this. I went out and bought a PH kit from the pet store.
As you can see the PH was just fine-------pause for comedic affect-------Stay in your lane bro thats way out of line.!
I took the test twice and there are two PH color coded listings, one for water and salt water. When you look at it up close its between a 8 and 8.5. So I'm sure this must be part of the problem.
Skinny,
Should I hold off on the humic acid until I get the PH issue straightened out?
Attachments
Okay I feel like I should apologize for the comment about not being open to ph testing. It's just that I've heard "I don't ph my plants" "...my water" so many times and it kind of frustrates me. Because ph issues tend to show up as nutrient deficiencies and so if you don't test then how can you know if it's a deficiency or a ph issue. I do understand why people want to avoid it, it's a hassle, it's an added expense and there are plenty of growers that will say it's unnecessary. As someone who has often struggled with covering expenses I totally feel you on the comment about opening you wallet and have moths fly out. I see by a post after the one I quoted you did get a tester which I think is a smart move even if you end up never having to use it very much. It's always good to have all the tools you need in your tool belt so you don't have to run out and buy one when you do need it.
Now the one thing I'll say is that if the ph of the run off is testing at 8 to 8.5 then that's likely the problem because a ph that high in soil locks out almost everything. If that's what it is going in though then you still need to test the runoff. The reason I say that is because it doesn't look like everything is getting locked out because your plants would look worse then they do if everything was locked out. It's very possible that what is in your soil is bringing that 8.0 - 8.5 down to a more reasonable rate which really that's kind of how living soil is supposed to work when done right. If the run off is good or at least more in range (6.3 - 6.8 for soil) then you might not need to do any adjustments to the water and just follow skinnyleaf 's advice about the humic acid and what not to balance the ph out. I'll add a graphic here that show the relationship to ph and nutrient uptake, hopefully it will be of some use to you in sorting things out.
Hempkat
Hey brother no apology necessary. I am old enough to understand how most internet forums work. I also have two dogs, reward the positive and ignore the negative, " not punish the negative". That form of training was disproved many many years ago. i.e. rub their nose in it. The only thing the punishment helps with is your own ego. Been there with my first dog about 22 yrs ago.
Anywho, I really appreciate the guidance. I ordered a complete PH kit with the PH up and PH down. All I got at the pet store was the test strips. I was sure the water was fine since I have been using it for 1.5 yrs of indoor growing . Doh!
I will follow your advice and water until run off and then check the PH of the run off. Consider it done.
As mentioned, I have four plants two of each strain and not all are showing the nute lockout or at least not yet. My local grow store only carried the granular form of humic acid. I will have to order the liquid form online too. I like to spend my money locally when I can but I cant find it locally, pisses me off
I am hesitant to add the this next statement because it could be a red herring but here goes nothing and I mean that.--------I now have two mother plants of the same two strains. Learned my lesson after my war on mites lasted almost 6 months. I took cuttings from them at the same time I put the others into flower. For the first time ever I had no roots after 17days . I had at least 6 cuttings of both strains and believe it not they looked as good as the day I put them in the dome, 17 days ago. When I opened up the riot rooters there wasn't a single root inside them. Not sure if it was the PH or the mothers had too much N. I have never had this happen before. Also super weird to see perfect looking cuttings without a single root.
Are these two incidents tied to the same problem????? No idea.
Hey brother no apology necessary. I am old enough to understand how most internet forums work. I also have two dogs, reward the positive and ignore the negative, " not punish the negative". That form of training was disproved many many years ago. i.e. rub their nose in it. The only thing the punishment helps with is your own ego. Been there with my first dog about 22 yrs ago.
Anywho, I really appreciate the guidance. I ordered a complete PH kit with the PH up and PH down. All I got at the pet store was the test strips. I was sure the water was fine since I have been using it for 1.5 yrs of indoor growing . Doh!
I will follow your advice and water until run off and then check the PH of the run off. Consider it done.
As mentioned, I have four plants two of each strain and not all are showing the nute lockout or at least not yet. My local grow store only carried the granular form of humic acid. I will have to order the liquid form online too. I like to spend my money locally when I can but I cant find it locally, pisses me off
I am hesitant to add the this next statement because it could be a red herring but here goes nothing and I mean that.--------I now have two mother plants of the same two strains. Learned my lesson after my war on mites lasted almost 6 months. I took cuttings from them at the same time I put the others into flower. For the first time ever I had no roots after 17days . I had at least 6 cuttings of both strains and believe it not they looked as good as the day I put them in the dome, 17 days ago. When I opened up the riot rooters there wasn't a single root inside them. Not sure if it was the PH or the mothers had too much N. I have never had this happen before. Also super weird to see perfect looking cuttings without a single root.
Are these two incidents tied to the same problem????? No idea.
You do not have clawing so Nitrogen toxcity is not the issue...You are not over feeding your plants either...If you want to argue this then what is the correct ppm of N to be fed...If you are short on 1 input it can and it will show as what its companion is maybe excess....Can you list the ratio's of nitrate and ammonia N in flower and veg, or how much the ratio of manganese is in flower what its companion is....
Now, the trolls and idiots are delt with back to the op...You have lack of K causing the yellowing along the side of the leaf...Many sources for K but the absolute last thing for K you want to use is silicate....google potassium defficiancy cannabis, hit enter once reults pull up tap images...
You will have far better results using google than you will hear...Tryst me...just type in cannabis defficiancy's you will find a classic chqrt on all of them...Type each defficiqncy in google then view images...Then you can see pictures that are similiar to the problem and can then educate yourself..
Now, the trolls and idiots are delt with back to the op...You have lack of K causing the yellowing along the side of the leaf...Many sources for K but the absolute last thing for K you want to use is silicate....google potassium defficiancy cannabis, hit enter once reults pull up tap images...
You will have far better results using google than you will hear...Tryst me...just type in cannabis defficiancy's you will find a classic chqrt on all of them...Type each defficiqncy in google then view images...Then you can see pictures that are similiar to the problem and can then educate yourself..
BobChronic6505
Active member
I'm new to organics too man and I have alot of the same problems you've mentioned. I had some recently that were perfect all the way through veg, but within 2 weeks of flower, they were all fucked up. I also get the yellowing on the leaf margins. It seems to only happen in soil with organics. Also it seems like it happens to me when humidity is low, especially this time of year. Ive read that potassium is easily washed out in soils with alot of water runoff. Unfortunately I dont have any answers to any of this. I've wondered everything from vpd to nutrients. Only real advice I can give is to research the deficiencies and conduct experiments with the clones till u get it right. I'm still trying to figure it out myself! Let us know if u figure out the cure!
I am hesitant to add the this next statement because it could be a red herring but here goes nothing and I mean that.--------I now have two mother plants of the same two strains. Learned my lesson after my war on mites lasted almost 6 months. I took cuttings from them at the same time I put the others into flower. For the first time ever I had no roots after 17days . I had at least 6 cuttings of both strains and believe it not they looked as good as the day I put them in the dome, 17 days ago. When I opened up the riot rooters there wasn't a single root inside them. Not sure if it was the PH or the mothers had too much N. I have never had this happen before. Also super weird to see perfect looking cuttings without a single root.
Are these two incidents tied to the same problem????? No idea.
I wish I had a definitive answer for you on the clone issue, unfortunately I don't. All I can tell you is that what you're experiencing is not uncommon, I've seen many people report similar problems and I've experienced it myself. I read somewhere once that as long as that there is any part of the cutting that looks green and healthy then just keep letting it go and eventually roots should appear. So I've kept that in the back of my mind. Mostly I get roots within 7 days but I've had many go as long as 3 weeks before roots showed. Usually when that happens there will be a small percentage that just never produce roots and eventually die off like maybe 2 out of a couple of dozen. The last several grows I've done were all SOG style grows which is why I would need so many clones. What drives me nuts is they're all getting the same treatment, they all have the same environment, they all come from the same set of mothers and they all use the same rapid rooters and cloning gel. So it's a mystery why most do so well but some take significantly longer and some never make it. The only thing I can figure is even though I handle them all the same way, on some I'm not doing as well as I do with the ones that do root quickly even though I might think I handled them properly.
"I do not PH my water. I do not have a EC pen."
That's the problem. I you are going to add anything to your medium, you'll want to know exactly what the pH and PPMs are.
Before that, I would flush with 1/4 strength high P/K flowering food (P stimulates root growth) and a tiny amount of Epsom Salt (Mg for healthy leaves). Flush very slowly and thoroughly, and then let the medium dry for a couple of days.
The plants look like they are having several (Mg, K, Ca or P) mobile nutrient deficiencies, however that are most likely the plant's most used nutrients, and the nutrients are being locked out by too high a PPM or too low a pH in the medium.
That's the problem. I you are going to add anything to your medium, you'll want to know exactly what the pH and PPMs are.
Before that, I would flush with 1/4 strength high P/K flowering food (P stimulates root growth) and a tiny amount of Epsom Salt (Mg for healthy leaves). Flush very slowly and thoroughly, and then let the medium dry for a couple of days.
The plants look like they are having several (Mg, K, Ca or P) mobile nutrient deficiencies, however that are most likely the plant's most used nutrients, and the nutrients are being locked out by too high a PPM or too low a pH in the medium.
Hey brother thanks for camaraderie much appreciated. I agree the first thing I did was google "potassium deficiency cannabis" and it did look like that but since I am new to living soil I wanted to make sure. To be honest I also new I probably should check the PH but that was one of the pros about going organic , the water PH was not as important.
I thought you did bring up a 2nd good point. Whats in the ferts I am using. maybe that will help others help me. "Help me Help you" "Help me Help you"
Flower Soil Mix
5 gal smart pot
FFOF soil
DR EARTH 4-4-4 ( 3TBs/gal)
Dr Earth 3-9-4 (3TBs/gal)
Both the veg and bloom ferts are made of the same ingredients.
Please note they do not list ratios of these ingredients.
Alfalfa Meal, Fishbone meal, Feather meal, potasssium sulfate,kelp meal and kelp flour
After spending the time to type this in I realize its not much help without the ratios of these organic ingredients. -doh!
