No ground - make one?

[Cannologist]

I'm building my outhouse into a growhouse. I have one 16A circuit with 230V, where 80% gives me 3000W to use...?
The kabel going to the outhouse is over 100m. Does the 80% rule still apply, or do I have to lower consumption even more?

The circuit has no ground. Is it possible to make a local grounded circuit without messing around in the fuse box? Can I just hammer a copper speard (or whatever they're made of) into the ground outside?

 

[queequeg152]

I'm building my outhouse into a growhouse. I have one 16A circuit with 230V, where 80% gives me 3000W to use...?
The kabel going to the outhouse is over 100m. Does the 80% rule still apply, or do I have to lower consumption even more?

The circuit has no ground. Is it possible to make a local grounded circuit without messing around in the fuse box? Can I just hammer a copper speard (or whatever they're made of) into the ground outside?

i think for remote sub panels you are required to stake a new ground rod AND bond it to the main panel ground.

but for small branch circuits i think you are ONLY required to bond the panel to the main panel ground bar.

if that is the case, ( not sure exactly, just off the top of my head) the question now is ... can you just fire a ground rod into the dirt instead of bonding?

check out mikeholt.com and electricantalk... i spent a few hours researching a tricky electrical code issue regarding a light fixture and a nearby pool.

the two above websites were invaluable.

good luck.

 

[Cannologist]

Either you misunderstand me, or I misunderstand you... there is no panel in the outhouse, just a non-grounded cabel going there and 3 plugs inside.

If I change the wires and plugs inside, and stake a ground rod and connect it to my new circuit inside, is that ok?

 

[chefbudz]

out house?? as in outdoor toilet?

 

[queequeg152]

Either you misunderstand me, or I misunderstand you... there is no panel in the outhouse, just a non-grounded cabel going there and 3 plugs inside.

If I change the wires and plugs inside, and stake a ground rod and connect it to my new circuit inside, is that ok?

for a remote small branch circuit like this, you are only required to bond to the main panels ground bar, inside the panel.

what im saying is... you need to find out if you can stake a new rod instead.
those websites i mentioned will answer this question.

 

[Cannologist]

Way to much to read on those pages queeq, when it hopefully can be answered relatively easy here...? ;o)

The main panel, from where the "outhouse" (no toilet ) circuit is coming from, is in a barn. The circuits in the barn are grounded.

I can stake a rod, for sure.. even find ground in a nearby stream (possible?), but I'd rather not mess around in the panel it selv..

A non-grounded cabel goes to the outhouse. If i stake a rod (or the stream) outside and let this ground cabel follow along the non-grounded and connect them to a grounded outlet inside... would that do?

 

[MJPassion]

I think the answer to your question is yes.

BUT...

As a matter of safety (and staying within electrical codes) you need to be sure installation is done correctly.

You need to provide more info though to get a solid answer that you van trust.

The wire size is very important when considering the amount of power you can safely draw through that particular circuit.

If I were to do what you are suggesting I would put a breaker box in the out house and wire separate curcuits for lights, vents, pumps, etc.

But yes... a copper rod driven into moist ground will serve as a ground. If your outside soil is extremely dry or you can't pound a rod at least 4ft into the ground, use 2 or 3 rods 4-6 feet apart, electrically connected with copper wire.

 

[queequeg152]

Way to much to read on those pages queeq, when it hopefully can be answered relatively easy here...? ;o)

fair enough.

it looks like you got a good answer below, but id still encourage you to do some research yourself to at least verify the above. especially considering how badly things can go wrong with respect to poor bonding and grounding...

honestly sometimes i forget folks may or many not know how to search through websites quickly and easily. i take this stuff for granted, however im a 20 something, and ive been doing this stuff for years and years and then some.

here:

to search a site... INDEPENDENTLY of the sites own search engine you do the following

site: mikeholt.com bonding grid

replace bonding grid with what ever search terms you wish.

edit:

here is what i came up with using the following search:

site: mikeholt.com grounding remote circuit

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=106703

 

[queequeg152]

it sounds like you NEED a grounding conductor that feeds back to the main panel in order to trip your breaker in the event of a short to the grounding rod.

sounds like you need a remote... small sub panel to handle these faults.

 

[Mikell]

but id still encourage you to do some research yourself to at least verify the above. especially considering how badly things can go wrong with respect to poor bonding and grounding...

Why even fiddlefart with electricity if you can't be bothered to learn about it....

 

[GratefulOne]

You are really getting into area you should do some serious learning.

100m run means you will have a HUGE voltage drop unless you use a giant sized cable (wire is too small for that length).

 

[queequeg152]

Why even fiddlefart with electricity if you can't be bothered to learn about it....

haha, thats how i learned.

man i got shocked wicked bad stick welding in high school... i was wearing shorts, without gloves, holding someones coupon such that they could tack weld it.
I had my knee against the ground clamp and caught an insanely uncomfortable jolt. it seriously felt like i got body slammed or something...

thing is though, it was an old buzz box transformer welder. im pretty sure they are... 28v ac. we were practicing on 1/4" plate steel, so we were probably around 50 amps.

never been shocked worse in my life... and ive caught some bad ones working on pool pumps in a stupid manner.

 

[queequeg152]

no, you know what, i think it was a mig machine.... it was towards the end of the year.

 

[Cannologist]

Hmmm... this turns out to be very complicated if I have to use a remote panel. After all, this is a temporary grow only to be used one time perhaps, and if used again, I will have more time to do it properly... now I'm just in a hurry to get finished before the summer sets in...

Perhaps a stupid question, but... if I remove all outlets from floor level and put all outlets and installations in the ceiling, connected to a grounding rod, AND use rubber boots just for safe measure.... will it be fairly safe, or will it still be a wild wild west project?

 

[queequeg152]

god man. i hesitate to even reply to this but... a 60 amp sub panel is like 40 bucks.

if you are not going to even try to get something close to code, then at least get some fault protection on this... a small sub panel with a rod will do that.

basic home wiring is one of the 8 essential man skills. just saying.

 

[iTarzan]

Outbuilding not outhouse. LOL! Unless that is whatever country you are in.

When you trace the wired plug in the outbuilding back to the barn is it coming out of a panel box? If yes does the box have a fuse or fuses?

If the outbuilding is a safe distance from where the barn or house is (in case it burns down) and the box in the barn has a fuse box and is grounded and you are positive about the voltage and amps going to the outbuilding I say the 80% rule and 3000w is a safe amount.

What was the outbuilding originally used for? What was plugged in out there?

 

[Cannologist]

god man. i hesitate to even reply to this but... a 60 amp sub panel is like 40 bucks.

if you are not going to even try to get something close to code, then at least get some fault protection on this... a small sub panel with a rod will do that.

basic home wiring is one of the 8 essential man skills. just saying.

Haha, I can see why you hesitate I was just thinking out loud.

Its not a money issue. If I was comfortable with hiring an electrician to do the job, I wouldnt even be asking the question on this board and my grow would already be running.
But paranoid doesnt even begin to cover it.. Also, I have no viable explanation to why I would need a subpanel in this location. I don't have to explain myself, of course, but it would be kinda strange and awkward when this issue most likely would be adressed during normal chitchat..

I guess I would be able to put up a sub panel after some research.. if I just knew what to look for and where to buy it...

Well, around here we call it an "outhouse", but after my first post I remembered outhouse is toilet in english...

The circuit in the outbuilding is coming from the main panel in the barn, going to something I guess is a subpanel going to my house. The main panel in the barn is like any other panel with several circuits with fuses, and a "ground fault fuse" (I'm guessing its not called this in english, but hopefully you understand what I mean?).

The buildings are in safe distance from each other, but I don't find much comfort in that as there are trees around, and in part, over the outbuilding.
The paper form inside the main panel says 16A and my meter shows 232-234V. There is a far stretch from the nearest tranformator to my farm though, but as long as I have the voltage, I'm hoping this is of no concern?

Originally, I have no idea what the building was used for... I just bought the place this fall.

 

[Cannologist]

Now I've been recommended, by an electrician on another board, to skip the ground and just use a "ground fault switch", or whatever its called in english.....?

This just seemed to simple to be true?

 

[Mikell]

Odd Rives hasen't popped in, you might PM to get his attention. He is one of the foremost (if not the) resident electricians and responsible for many houses staying in the prime "not-on-fire" state most of us prefer.