Next try: 400W CMH Satori & KC33

[Hazelnuts]

So, my last grow was a disaster (check the link in my sig for more info). The timer switch fucked off and I had presumably shitty genetics (I mostly blame the timer switch for breaking even though it was operated WAY under its specs and myself for not noticing). I didn't let that discourage me and started my next grow 3 months ago, this time on coco. Again, I failed miserably: my plants had stunted growth and remained 2 inches tall for about a month, for what reasons I have no clue. I gave up on the coco project for the moment and transplanted them to soil where they started growing like crazy pretty much instantly, left them in the veg phase way too long until they grew huge lianae and finally flipped the switch to 12/12 about 2 weeks ago after taking cuttings of all the plants and sorting most of the males out based on preflowers (I had 2 more that I couldn't tell that grew balls after 12/12). I started with 18 plants, now I have 8 females (5/8 f/m ratio on the satoris and a disappointing 3/10 on the KC33) 2 weeks into 12/12 and things are starting to get interesting. The plants got so tall and lanky that I had to arrange them in a pseudo-scrog manner where I tie every plant down in an attempt to achieve a somewhat level canopy (I just re-arranged them today so they still look a bit odd on the pics). Now every bud site should be getting a decent amount of light and everything's ready for take off, see for yourself:

First a peek at my ghetto cloning setup (the ones without humidity domes were rooted in my shitty homemade bubble cloner, got like 14/18 or so to root, the ones with domes are "backup clones" taken to compensate for the shittiness of the bubble cloner):

And here are the plants themselves:

This one wanted to fly a little too close to the sun and got some nasty burns:

And here's a pic of the whole tent. You can still see my coco librabak setup below the plants, I just put them on there cause I couldn't be arsed to clear all that stuff out again and find a suitable storage space for it, if they grow too tall I might still do it though.

I sure hope this harvest turns out better than the last one. And I have one question to those of you experienced with CMH and HPS bulbs:

should I keep them under the CMH or should I switch to an HPS bulb?


People seem to disagree on this matter, some say CMHs are vastly superior and others insist that they get better results with HPSs...

I'm feeding them with the lucas formula by the way, except I dilute it a bit cause I think they'd burn up otherwise.

 

[magiccannabus]

I just finished building my flower cab with a 400W CMH overhead and 256W of T-8 tubes. I am vegging them in there for a couple weeks while I improve the door and let them fill out a bit. After that I'll be going 12/12. I guess based on my experience so far, the CMH is a nice lamp. It doesn't radiate so much infrared(often referred to as "throwing heat") like the HPS did. In fact, the HPS made a lot more heat after it was broken in than the CMH did when it was brand new. After the break in the CMH got even cooler. At first I could touch the hood for a split second and not get burned. Now I can casually touch it, but it's too hot to hold my hand there long. The HPS was blazing hot comparatively. My last grow was under HPS and the results were not bad or anything, but I'm hoping for something better. I probably won't get my results in time to help you, but who knows...

 

[Anti]

I consistently hear people who tried CMH and didn't like it say that they get denser, heavier nugs but that the CMH gave them FROSTIER nugs.

I've also heard people who say that CMH gave them too many leaves.

I'm at the beginning of my second run with CMH so I can't give you a definitive answer.

knna said somewhere that at densities above 75w/sq.ft. CMH was a clear winner.

I have looked for side-by-sides and I only found one and it was on another forum and I'm not sure which one... but in that one the guy achieved nearly identical yields between the two sides. The difference was that he was able to keep his CMH about 7-8" closer than the HPS.

Best advice I can give is to do a few runs with CMH and then do a few runs with HPS and see which you prefer.

 

[Hazelnuts]

Okay, I think I'll just stay with the CMH for this grow. Since I kept mothers, I'll be able to compare the reactions of these same plants to HPS light during flowering in the next grow.

Edit: Here's some fresh pics, the buds are definitely coming along. I'd say in a few weeks we should see where we're headed (I'm confident it's a good place)

^Wow, looks real ghetto on that pic.

And here's a bud from a bag of dank I picked up yesterday:

 

[magiccannabus]

I'l be watching this thread. The girls are looking healthy. I'll be going to 12/12 soon myself. I'm running over 90W per square foot, so I'm excited to see what that can do.

I saw that same side-by-side grow thread that Anti is talking about. I do agree that the results are not conclusive, but the CMH certainly didn't stomp the HPS or anything. My biggest disagreement with that experiment is how different the reflector hoods were between the two. Otherwise it was a useful read. You should also look up grows by "Microwido"(I think), as he used a dual 400W CMH setup to grow monsters. I think it is fair to argue at this point that it is at least equal to a quality HPS lamp, and runs a lot cooler (for most people...I've heard a couple complaints about heat, but that is not my experience). I really think preparing your space and plants for the specific method you use is about as critical as anything. I'm doing organic, so you pretty much get the environment stable and you're good. This time I'm also going for a lot of tops, with a solid body to the plants and lots of side lighting. This is what works best in my space. I veg them up, then when I flower, I don't want out of control stretch. I want to keep things manageable, but productive. I can get a really good bud density in that chamber without mildew problems because of the updraft ventilation, and the organic soil. For others, tall, stretchy plants might fill out their space better and compliment their overhead-only light method. In your situation though, it would not be hard to add a few side lights. It really looks like you have space for it. Even a few CFLs strategically placed just above soil level around the edges would reduce your shadows and make more use of lower bud sites and leaves.

As far as the leaf levels, I'm waiting on my own grow to see about that one. This first run I'm vegging two weeks or so in the flowering chamber first, so I don't know if that's going to mean any difference in the amount of leaf. They need a little time to root out their planter bags(2.75 gallon) though, since they were transplanted from a 0.4 gallon planter. I didn't have enough room in my current veg space and have to build a new one so I can get perpetual up and running. My results will probably be more tuned-in by then. Anyway, hopefully we can both learn something from each other's work since we're running nearly the same flowering cycle.

 

[magiccannabus]

oops, double post

 

[Hazelnuts]

I'l be watching this thread. The girls are looking healthy. I'll be going to 12/12 soon myself. I'm running over 90W per square foot, so I'm excited to see what that can do.

I saw that same side-by-side grow thread that Anti is talking about. I do agree that the results are not conclusive, but the CMH certainly didn't stomp the HPS or anything. My biggest disagreement with that experiment is how different the reflector hoods were between the two. Otherwise it was a useful read. You should also look up grows by "Microwido"(I think), as he used a dual 400W CMH setup to grow monsters. I think it is fair to argue at this point that it is at least equal to a quality HPS lamp, and runs a lot cooler (for most people...I've heard a couple complaints about heat, but that is not my experience). I really think preparing your space and plants for the specific method you use is about as critical as anything. I'm doing organic, so you pretty much get the environment stable and you're good. This time I'm also going for a lot of tops, with a solid body to the plants and lots of side lighting. This is what works best in my space. I veg them up, then when I flower, I don't want out of control stretch. I want to keep things manageable, but productive. I can get a really good bud density in that chamber without mildew problems because of the updraft ventilation, and the organic soil. For others, tall, stretchy plants might fill out their space better and compliment their overhead-only light method. In your situation though, it would not be hard to add a few side lights. It really looks like you have space for it. Even a few CFLs strategically placed just above soil level around the edges would reduce your shadows and make more use of lower bud sites and leaves.

As far as the leaf levels, I'm waiting on my own grow to see about that one. This first run I'm vegging two weeks or so in the flowering chamber first, so I don't know if that's going to mean any difference in the amount of leaf. They need a little time to root out their planter bags(2.75 gallon) though, since they were transplanted from a 0.4 gallon planter. I didn't have enough room in my current veg space and have to build a new one so I can get perpetual up and running. My results will probably be more tuned-in by then. Anyway, hopefully we can both learn something from each other's work since we're running nearly the same flowering cycle.

Thanks for your input, I might try putting some CFLs in there. I've also thought about putting a second 400W lamp in there with an HPS bulb, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it (would make for 100W/sqft) and I'd have to switch bulbs everyday or something to make sure all the plants get the same light..

 

[Anti]

Thanks for your input, I might try putting some CFLs in there. I've also thought about putting a second 400W lamp in there with an HPS bulb, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it (would make for 100W/sqft) and I'd have to switch bulbs everyday or something to make sure all the plants get the same light..

This is not from my own personal experience... this is knna talking. And knna has a knack for understanding radiation and photons that I simply do not...

He claims that above 75w/sq.ft. that CMH will actually blow HPS out of the water.

So if you added a second light, you could add a second CMH and wreck shit without having to constantly switch out your lamps.

 

[Hazelnuts]

This is not from my own personal experience... this is knna talking. And knna has a knack for understanding radiation and photons that I simply do not...

He claims that above 75w/sq.ft. that CMH will actually blow HPS out of the water.

So if you added a second light, you could add a second CMH and wreck shit without having to constantly switch out your lamps.

That's interesting, but I'd have to get one first. That would take a while since I live in Switzerland and the only shop I know of that sells them is advanced tech in the US, so if anything I'll be adding it for the next grow's 12/12 cycle (400W seems enough for veg to me). I'm still not sure whether it would really pay off in terms of yield and especially grams/watt though. 100W/sq ft seems pretty excessive to me...

Either way, I've got some pics for you guys. The girls have really geared up over the weekend (I was away in the mountains tripping acid with a friend), getting bigger and also firing up the trichome production (not yet all of them though).

^This one's really starting to pump out the resin

As you can maybe see in the pics (it's more pronounced in person), they're quite a light green and I'll be feeding them a bit more with the next watering.

 

[Hazelnuts]

A little update: I've decided to go with the HPS for flowering after all, I replaced the CMH today after the lights went out. The prospect of potentially increased yield and less leaf/bud ratio outweighs the (maybe) increased potency of the CMH for me.

 

[Hazelnuts]

Here are some new shots from day 20:

 

[KushIsMyCologne]

I've never even seen a CMH bulb, how much are they compared to a standard MH?

Plants look great, good luck with the grow!

 

[magiccannabus]

The CMH is fairly rare in growing still I think, but when it was compared side-by-side with an HPS as mentioned above, it was compared to a specialty HPS grow bulb. I think it's safe to say it's much brighter than standard MH. I've owned both, and while I haven't looked at them side-by-side, I am completely sure the CMH is quite a bit brighter.

 

[Hazelnuts]

I'm back with some day 23 pics! Things are going well, although some of the plants are starting to get yellow (I believe that's normal though). And the KC33 plant with the biggest buds so far is making taco leaves on a few buds, I think it's because the fan was blowing a bit too strongly and those buds are right below the lamp. I've turned the fan down now.

These two shots are of that largest KC33 I mentioned. I also have a cutting of her that I'm planning to make a mother (along with cuts of all the other females, although I won't be keeping them all).

This is a satori girl that's really putting out the resin.

 

[Hazelnuts]

I took some pics with my camera's flash after the lights went out today, makes them look a lot nicer. Day 25 now and they're coming along nicely.

 

[magiccannabus]

Filling out nicely!

 

[Hazelnuts]

Thanks! They're really coming out with the resin now, too, things are starting to smell delicious. Day 28 if my counting is right.

This one is looking a bit off, anyone know what might be causing this? The lower leaves on this plant are very bright and some are curling up, see pics:

I've been thinking magnesium deficiency but I'm not sure at all. Curling leaves isn't a symptom that's mentioned often

 

[magiccannabus]

Funny you post a picture of that and then I go back to check my plants one more time before lights out and lo and behold, one of my two Northern Lights #1 plants(plant 1 I think?) is doing the same thing. I'm a 100% organic soil grower, and mag def should be rare in organics, but lockouts are still possible, just generally due to different reasons. In my case, the biology got a bit out of whack, but in your case I can't say 100%. They do that taco thing when they want to save water too. In fact, in a lot ways, it almost looks like your plant is doing that, not mag def. So hard to say, but I know that it's pretty hard to poison your plant with magnesium, so attempting a fix is not risky even if it may be unnecessary.

 

[Hazelnuts]

OK, yeah the weird thing is that the plants get watered every 2 days or every day (depending on condition of the soil) and only a few buds of the whole plant (which is rather big) do that thing. They are right below the lamp, so maybe that's the issue, but they shouldn't be too hot there (I can hold my hand there, and 2 inches above that spot too, for as long as I want to with no problem). I've thought of wind burn as well since the fan pointed right at that spot before I tied it further up and switched it to a slower mode but it's still going on. Oh well, I'll try adding some epsom salts and see if it helps. Here are some more pics.

 

[magiccannabus]

The measurable humidity can often be quite a bit lower right under the bulb, probably pretty quickly driving the moisture out of the air even with airflow. How big is that gap? Also, does your cabinet have an updraft ventilation system? Sometimes I've noticed that dries out the top parts of the plants a bit faster than it should(mine is updraft). I don't think your harvest is going to be hurt by it, unless it gets worse.