New room, HVAC and framing questions

[yamaha_1fan]

At first glance, I think the additional ac unit would be the way to go.

What you want is a Paslode nailer gun. I have had one for years. It uses butane cartridges and a battery pack that fits in the handle.
They are still just under $400.
You will be glad you own it.

Do you have issues when the fuel goes low or batteries dying?

There will be two of us so I am thinking just to buy a compressor and compressor driven guns. I have a big compressor at home I can borrow for the project. Probably be cheaper this way versus two Paslode guns which we will probably never use again.

 

[badugi]

Pretty much what I concluded, y1f.

A decent pneumatic framing nailer looks like ~$200 - $250, or much cheaper (like $80 a pop from Harbor Freight) for guns w/ a few less bells & whistles that you will likely use only once.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Yeah, if you are never going to use the gun again, just get the cheapest you can find.

The paslode is a keeper tool. Btw, the framing nailer is $375 new. The stick framer is limited on nail size, and is a lesser model. The big dog will shoot just about anything.
The gun will run all day on a charge, and the cartridges are a two second change when they run out. Frame four walls might eat a cartridge. (shrug)
I also own a compressor and several tools and guns.

Man, I am still digesting your ventilation system.
Where is your incoming air coming from?

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Hey yamaha, how ya doing? Looks like your a busy man! lol

I have a question for you in regards to your table layout...

It looks like you have 2 tables right together with each other. I noticed you have more room in the one direction. Could you leave a 2 foot space between them so you have room to get in there if you have to work on the plants?

My point is one NEVER knows if there is going to a problem, i think you might thank you lucky stars if you made some maintenance access room.

Just curious.

As for ventilation... Have you considered 8" reflectors, they move alot more air. If it was me i would use 4 fans and split each room up in to 2 separate cooling systems. I would then flip flop between rooms and use electronic dampeners to move the air flow to the other room. Running a system of push/pull with the fans would be your best bet.

As for a/c the mini splits rule, But depending if you live someplace cold in the winter, you might have to look into on that the compressor can handle sub freezing temps.

peace

The tables are on wheels. Originally we were going to use your normal pre made tables. But since we are putting them on wheels, I am 80% of the way to building a whole table. Also it may seem petty but with 8 tables every inch counts. The pots I use are 5.5 x 5.5. I fit 8 across. If I build the table with inside dimensions of 44" I can fit them in. I gain 4" PLUS grow tables have an outer lip so I save more. 4 tables x4 " is 16". That doesnt even factor what I can save on length as well. That may be enough to get my gut around the tables P

wheels? why? Push em all together for one large canopy. Why should I have light spilling on the floor? The floor doesnt need it. The MAIN reason. The rooms will have double doors that are wide enough to roll the tables through. If we need to evacuate, rent a truck, rollem out and in the truck. Probably have the place cleared in an hour.

8" hoods? Pice did some testing and the 8" hood he tested performed badly

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Hi yamaha, I took your picture and messed it all up in paint

Please excuse my crappy editing

I'm unsure, as I write this, if the writing in the picture is going to be legible... hopefully it will be.

First off, the fans pulling air from the opposite end (assuming the ducting is right about the same length) will equalize pressure and cause a fairly even flow among all of the hoods.

You want the Ducting to all the hoods to be 6", but you want your intake and secondary outtakes to be at least 10", I would go with 12"... hopefully something like the CanFan MAX12" I think its around 1200-1400cfm... but probably around 3-4 amps (@ 120v) to run. I'm assuming with this setup that electricity isn't a problem

Your master duct should be as big as you can make it... maybe 18"?

I obviously didn't copy this diagram to the other side of the room, but just flip it around and make it identical.

I don't know much about the building or where you can pull air from, but hopefully this will at least allow you to make an educated guess.

If done right you will probably have to use very little A/C. I assume the goal is Co2, otherwise very large filters/fans strapped to ceiling with no ducting or glass on the hoods would work fine.

MR C I blew the pic up and am a little confused. I see where the intakes are, and see the fans where I would assume the exhaust would exit. But what is the purpose of the duct (master duct?) on the very right running along the dividing wall?

The rooms are being built inside of a large warehouse. The warehouse itself has large exhaust fans. So any heat buildup from light cooling or window unit A/C's would be easily exhausted. Thats why I can intake/exhaust from anywhere I want in the room. The rooms also wont have any direct sunlight on them.

No electricity isnt an issue

Yes CO2 is the plan.

The problem with the Excel dampner system is, it shuts off one room for 12 hours. So if they go to sleep when the room is 85, they wont get any A/C

BlindDate has a good idea. I may have to look into that further. With a couple temp controlled relays etc, I could make that work

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Another thing:lights?

How would you guys set up the lights electrically? I have 3 phase power if I need it but that be more of a PITA.

Would you flip the lights? Delay the startup of the lights?

 

[BlindDate]

Why would you need temp controlled relays? Just keep the fans circulating 24/7.

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Why would you need temp controlled relays? Just keep the fans circulating 24/7.

I guess I am thinking I want the plants at lights on at 82-85, and the plants in dark around 70ish. Or is that not needed? Thats what I do not but thats primarily to help keep the reses cool since they are now in the room.

 

[Uncle FREEDOM]

Hey yamaha

Ok you bested me. Good idea on the movable tables. You are right to do that as it uses all the light. LOL I was just trying to make things easier for ya.

Using the logic of 8" is not as good as 6" does not make sense to me... If we expand that logic then 4" should be even better. Here is what i think.... 6 vs 8 might come down to a proper sized fan. (maximizing the fan potential) What i mean is if the fan volume is not maximizing the 6" tubes then 8 inch would not improve things.... But if one WAS to maximize it FOR 8" then one would improve cooling. (hope my logic makes sense to ya)

As for how to set up the fans.... they should be on a push pull setup like this (will equalize the pressure)

Fan on top sucking, the other one blowing.



Now i would use some furnace blowers, and you have to calculate the size of manifolds to the size of the light cooling vent. (ie. If the you are using 8" vents then 12" manifolds should do the trick (Think of 4 eight inch circles inside a 16 inch circle there is still open area so 16 inch is over kill/ thus the standard 12" should come close to maxing it out.)

Hope i am making sense

Now flip/flopping is the way to go (unless you WANT to buy double the ballasts!) lol

Don't worry about the heat, as it will slowly drop after the lights/ac flip to the other side (just like when the sun goes down) Just make sure it is wired that the lights/ac/fans are set for the SAME time.

Hope this helps.

looking forward to seeing your grow.

 

[yamaha_1fan]

what I meant was in light coverage. Have you read Pico's thread? The only 8" reflector he tested had a loss of more than 10%.

 

[Uncle FREEDOM]

Ya i read that, good work by him... Sorry i misunderstood ya!

It is a tough call, but i do not like the idea of such small vents (and the resulting heat) I wonder if all 8" hoods are like that.

I do not like to waste ANY light, thus i grow vertical. Now if i could ditch all my cool tubes for a custom piece of 6' glass 8" glass i will be a happy man! lol

I do wonder if the 10% loss in light will be canceled by a 10% or more increase in A/C costs though.

It's up to you, just trying to help.

peace my brother

 

[badugi]

Only way to work out a figure like that is to do real-world tests and see what the bottom line looks like at the end. You can take two reflectors that are otherwise identical besides the size of the A/C port, such as the SilverStar 6" vs. SilverStar 8". I personally don't feel there's a need for anything larger than 6" for 3000w, maybe 4000w inline with a powerful enough fan. Right now I'm pulling 3000w through two rows of 3 x 1000w w/ 6" hoods, one 8" fan per row and it runs very cool.

 

[Mr Celsius]

Nice picture-jack Uncle... LOL

Anyways... Yamaha, the reason for the master duct (which I realized I made too long) is so that you can evacuate the air out the right side of the room. Its key to pull air from the opposite side that you're intaking, thus equalizing the pressure among all of the hoods.

The master duct is just a means for the bottom row to vent out of, simple as that.

I would no use 8" reflectors.

If you did go with my diagram, you're only have 2 hoods get cooled in series, so there's no need for 8" ducting. 2 - 600's are very easy to cool with ample airflow.

 

[BlindDate]

(Think of 4 eight inch circles inside a 16 inch circle there is still open area so 16 inch is over kill/ thus the standard 12" should come close to maxing it out.)

Hope i am making sense

Sorry....you do not make any sense. Do the math rather than make guesstimations (my word).

4 eight inch circles = 201 sq/in area

A 12 inch circle is only 113 sq/in area. That is only half what you need.

A 16 inch circle is 201 sq/in area. That is exactly what you need.

Hope I'm making sense.

 

[BlindDate]

The biggest determinant of cooling capacity for the lights is the inlet temperature of the air. Far more important than 6" or 8" reflectors. In fact, if you live in a hot climate consider no air cooling (since it's effectiveness is limited), but rather just running a big ass AC. AC will also dehumidify the room. Very important in a sealed room running CO2. This is also why I recirculate between the rooms, so that both sides dehumidify.

Now I know that people are going to say "but what about the power usage of running AC 100%". Well, first consider that AC is also doing the job of a dehumidifier. And, think about the complexity of air cooling lights. It's nice to be able to move lights around without all that ducting attached. It also makes the setup clean and simple without the room looking like the insides of the Space Shuttle. But like I said, it depends on your climate. If you live in Canada go air cooled. If you live in SoCal go AC.

 

[badugi]

Did you place the fans near the floor or near the ceiling?

I have run a similar setup in the past. Two rooms back to back and a single AC unit in one of the rooms. What I did (with success) was to install two Elicent fans in the adjoining wall. Their flows are opposite each other so that they circulate and share the air between rooms. You will not "waste" any CO2 since the dark side does not use any. In fact, your CO2 usage will be less since sleeping plants actually produce CO2 gas. For rooms that size, I would use no less than 12" fans.

The diagram of your light air cooling scheme is fine. Go with the 4 lights in a row plan not the 8. Also, go with 8" reflectors and use manifolds no less than 16" diameter or rectangular 200 square inches. 200 square inches is equal area to the reflectors. The blower is another story. I don't think they make an axial blower 16". You will probably need a big ass squirrel cage blower. You know, the kind you see mounted on the roofs of buildings with a motor and pulley belt.

Stay safe

 

[BlindDate]

The room with the AC has the fan on the floor blowing cold air into the other room. The room without AC has the fan near the ceiling blowing hot air into the AC room.

 

[badugi]

I was hoping you'd say that. How large was each room and what size fans did you use?

Do you always go with Elicent brand fans? What's your thoughts on using a pair of 12" (1140cfm) Vortex brand fans? Those 12" XL 2050cfm's look killer but is probably too much. Plus all that RPM can't be great, probably better to get a larger fan right?

Can you please describe or illustrate your light trap design?

I'm guessing that Excel Air dual damper system can easily be built for way less than $2.3k. $100/ea for the dampers, $50/ea plenum box, and $100 for a pair of thermostats (total $700)? It could be more flexible than Excel Air's system which has the "switchover" limitation.

 

[BlindDate]

Each room was only 8 x 12 and I used a 8" fan.

My first fan was an Elicent. It still works flawlessly after running 24/7 for 6 years. I suppose Vortex and the others are just as good.

Fan Comment:
Many of the manufacturers have sizes in two models, the regular one and the high output one. They achieve higher output in the same size by running the motor faster. This drastically cuts the life of the fan and increases the noise. Much better to buy a large fan running slower vs a small fan running faster. (BD tip of the day)

You don't need much of a light trap. The fan itself does a good job (at least the Elicent does), but I do have a 90 deg fitting on the outputs to direct flow.