neurtral as ground??

[DIGITALHIPPY]

my main box appears to be using the neutral/ground bus for the same thing....

i c ground wires bolted next to neutral ones...





is it ok to just plug my neutral and ground into the same bus?

 

[acidnI_livE]

you could but you defeate the purpose of having the neutral wire.

what the neutral wire is there for is to provide an easy and quick path for electricity to take in the event of a short.

electricity takes the easyest path to ground to complete a circuit.

the nuetral wire is there so the electricity will flow through the nuetral is there was a short, instead of YOUR body. if the neutral is hooked to the "ground" you basically disable the "safe guard" of the neutral path to ground.

you would be better off just not hooking it up at all or just get a sheet metal screw and screw the wird to the housing of the bos or some other body of metal near by.

it will work fine if you hook it to the ground you will just have the netral wire always being "hot" so to speak.

IMO/IME id just not even hook it up and cut it short so it is not in the way, before i would hook it to "ground". but even better id mount the neutral the way it is supposed to be= sttached to the breaker box housing with a sheet metal screw.

my father is a master electrician and if been side by side with him on every "side job" he has ever done since i was about 4 years old. when i was that young he tought me what all the tools were called and fittings and connectors and used me kinda like a "flunkie" but as i got older i activly worked with hot wires and such. not at 4 yo but at like 14 years old i was able to install swithches and plug outlets and run conduit for new boxes to handle 240 volts. ive done a lot of 240 hook ups

off topic sorry. but i just wanted you to have a little background on my electrical qualifications, so you can not worry about getting wrong/bad/misunderstood advice frome somebody. i myself am not a "master electrician" nor have i had any "formal" schooling, other than working side my side and being taught everything a master electrician knows. (thanx dad for the teaching, it made setting up my and others electrical aspects of grow rooms very easy. probably could install a 240 line blindfolded.lol)

but yeah that "neutral is there to save you in the event that whatever device shorts and you happen to be touching it or turning sadi device on or off.

if its the whole box that need the neutrall hooked up yeah it should be done the rite way. is that neutral grounding the whole bbreaker box. or is it just like the neutral for a lite socket or something?

wasnt able to see your pic sorry

if it is for the "whole" box your attach the nuetral with the screw to the boxes housing and the other endshould be outside somewhere or attached to a pipe, but attached to something that will ground any electicity to something other than YOU. be safe and happy wiring.

how u been hippy i have had my speed queen buds curing in the jar for like 10 days now and took some and smoked it and it was very good good ggood smoke. easy as a breeze to grow and the hash from it is awesome (i did the QWiso method for the hash making) i dedicated 2 oz of fresh buds (popcorny ones) alone with all the trimm to make it i harvested 11.5 .oz frome three plants and made ten grams of hash also.

the speed queens are nice yeilders very good considering they only got the ffof soil with a light dose of super tea (mother earths of course) and enzymes.

they got ud blood the first 2 weeks though but nothing else chemical but that.

i like to change my names every couple months and start a new account, im a little OCD and it make my mind at ease even though it makes no sense really to dlete my account and 2 days later activat another one.lol

hash is a hell of a drug. never smoke or even seen it in person untill i made it my self. hope you dont hurt yourself with the electricity be safe and bless your plants bro. peace

Evil_Indica

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

i dont even see a white/netural in my main panel...
it appears ive got black, red(both hot) and ground. where my white and bare are connected. i thought it was a water pipe but there is a grounding rod 2 feet from my main. i can re-wire the main, but dont want to ive got an open bolt on my main for the neutral, and i could run the ground to the grounding rod(sounds safe), but what about the lack of incoming neutral?

my subpanel has its own grounding bus, so ive got 4 wires.
from all the go0gling ive done on "neutral as ground"
ive found alot of people sugesting that i just plug my neutral into the ground at my main, aswellas the ground/bare at the main, but to make sure there seperated at the SP
different electrical forums.

i will be using 120v/240v and dont want to blow shit up.

so do i plug my neutralinto the ground bus at the main and extend my SP ground to the rod? or do i plug my SP neutral/ground to the neutral/ground bus of the main????

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

bump...
neutral + ground onto the bus bar?

 

[Guest]

Digital-----looking at the last photo, your meter can, notice the 3 black wires, the 2 on the left are what appears to be Hot and the smaller AWG on the right, although not identified with white tape appears to be the neutral. Identify it as such by tracing it back to the point of attachment in the main panel.

I would have thought that the electrician who came by your home recently would have made the necessary UPGRADE to bring it up to 2008 NEC in addition to what he did when he was there.

You have 3 wires coming from the power pole, 2-120V and a neutral.

The standard U.S. household wiring design has two 120 volt 'hot' wires and a neutral which is at ground potential. The two 120 volt wires are obtained by grounding the centertap of the transformer supplying the house so that when one hot wire is swinging positive with respect to the ground, the other is swinging negative. This versatile design allows the use of either hot wire to supply the standard 120 volt household circuits. For higher power applications like clothes dryers, electric ranges, air conditioners, etc. ,both hot wires can be used to produce a 240 volt circuit.

The high voltage (about 120 volts effective, 60Hz AC) is supplied to the smaller prong of the standard polarized U.S. receptacle. It is commonly called the "hot wire". If an appliance is plugged into the receptacle, the electric current will flow through the appliance and then back to the wider prong, the Neutral. The Neutral wire carries the current back to the electrical panel and from there to earth (ground). The ground wire is not a part of the electrical circuit, but is desirable for prevention of electric shock.

The two receptacles in a common "duplex" receptacle receive power from the same circuit leading from the main electrical panel. The are wired in parallel so that two appliances which are plugged into the receptacle receive the same voltage, but can draw different amounts of electric current. Parallel wiring is the standard for 120 volt circuits in the entire house, making possible the independent use of all appliances, supplied by the SAME voltage.

DigitalHippy, you're OKAY with the Buss bar (tie block) set up that you currently have. One recent variation which is in force in SOME locations (states) is the requirement that the neutral tie block AND the ground wire tie block be separate. The neutral tie block is grounded at the centertap of the transformer which supplies the house, and the ground tie block is tied directly to ground via a ground stake or other grounding mechanism. This is different from your existing system which reflects the long-standing practice of having a common neutral and ground tie block which was grounded at the house AS WELL as at the transformer.

Oooops! Sorry for causing you any concerns--------- TyStik removes egg from his face with a Big towel and humbly apologizes to you and this forum.

TyStik

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

ive got no more money left for electricians.
the guy was an illigal who my boss hired, and i kicked out as i finished the work for him, he wired things upsideown, switched wouldnt tunr things on, or off, and he crossed the pos and neg into the wrong terminal on a few plugs. we were just replacing the old beat plugs with new ones. switches and dimmers also.

is there anything i can do THAT IS SAFE to fix this issue. i have people coming on monday to replace windows and i need to get all the extentions cords running my lights out of the way.

the third terminal on the right of the incoming is coated in plastic past the aluminum wire bolt. and your right it looks like neutrAL. as the ground is coming to a grounding rod just below the box. i just need to pull 1800watts for a few weeks untill i get more money, then i can have someone put a new panel in and fix the clusterfuck.
im smelling a 1000$+ job to do that...as my subpanel/breakers/plugs cost me a few bills....

 

[Betty's Boy]

Don't be affraid to hook the ground to the neutral bar, It'll work just fine. When electricity come into your appliance whatever isn't used return's through the neutral wire. If there's a short the breaker will trip and you'll be ok, until you figure why it tripped...! Did electrical work for 12 yr's and I've seen this many time's. you can also go buy a ground bar at home depot and attach it to the inside of the box. then you have a ground to attach to. they make small one's. It work's everywhere else in your house does'nt it...? just my 2 ct's good luck Digital

in case of a short.....that's what the ground is for...not the neutral...!

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

Don't be affraid to hook the ground to the neutral bar, It'll work just fine. When electricity come into your appliance whatever isn't used return's through the neutral wire. If there's a short the breaker will trip and you'll be ok, until you figure why it tripped...! Did electrical work for 12 yr's and I've seen this many time's. you can also go buy a ground bar at home depot and attach it to the inside of the box. then you have a ground to attach to. they make small one's. It work's everywhere else in your house does'nt it...? just my 2 ct's good luck Digital

in case of a short.....that's what the ground is for...not the neutral...!

thanks man, appreciate the feedback. i thought about adding a new grounding bar to straighten out this mess. but i thought the neutral/ground bar might have been bonded to the main.....didnt want 2 grounds...white and green....ill definately have to get this upgraded...i dont like that one bit....

 

[Guest]

Betty's Boy----Thank You for the correction. I have edited/corrected my reply to DigitalHippy. Even us Old Farts have our head up our Ass on occasion.

Respects,

TyStik

 

[PharmaCan]

Ty-Stik - outstanding explanation of how a circuit works! You should copy that to Word and save it. You'll get a lot of use out of it here.

DigitalHippy - Maybe I'm a little too high right now, but what exactly do you think is a problem? The ground/neutral thing is not an issue; is there something else that is not working? While replacing your electrical service might be something for your wish list, I can't see any immediate urgency in doing so, especially since it appears that your existing panel is functional and safe.

Your sub-panel is another story. What an abortion! There are four 240v circuits on one 240v breaker; no romex connectors where the wires pass through the holes in the panel; the grounds should be connected to a grounding block which in turn should be bonded to the panel; there are three 120v circuits going into one 120v breaker and, it looks like there are no romex connectors on the individual receptacle boxes.

PC

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

...

DigitalHippy -...
Your sub-panel is another story. What an abortion! There are four 240v circuits on one 240v breaker; no romex connectors where the wires pass through the holes in the panel; the grounds should be connected to a grounding block which in turn should be bonded to the panel; there are three 120v circuits going into one 120v breaker and, it looks like there are no romex connectors on the individual receptacle boxes.

PC

wow man you said it all...
LOL abortion!
the 2 100amp breakers is the main incoming actualy...thought it was the a/c...the idiot had the a/c on the left with 8 awg wire on an 80 amp breaker...LOL
anyways i turned off the incoming and started playing with my main...it turns out that on the right side of the neutral bus there is a neutral coming in from the power co. its just coming in from the bottom and the bust is only a few MM away from the bottom of the meter divider....

it appears that the ground is comming in from the left side of the box and is ALSO connected to the neutral bus!!!! the neutraL bus does not a appear to be grounded/bonded to the main....good for me, it looks like all i have to do is add a grounding bus.....remove the alum, copper grounds and reconnect them to the new ground bar.


is there anyway i can tell if the bus is bonded to the main? logicly it would make sence that it not be bonded, atleast to me, also the bus looks like all the screws are shorties...and mostly taken...i dont know ill get some better pics when they allow uploads...

Betty's Boy- thanks for telling me to just go for it. i got it connected and all is well....

Ty-Stik- thanks for your constant help! without you id be an idiot still!!!

got my sub in, got 2 240 lights on, 13k btu portable a/c fan and all is well!!!
thanks ICmag community!

 

[Betty's Boy]

Glad I was of some help...Grow-on enjoy yourself..

TyStik..I'm was'nt trying to step on any toe's....thank's for understanding.!

B.B.

 

[Guest]

Glad I was of some help...Grow-on enjoy yourself..

TyStik..I'm was'nt trying to step on any toe's....thank's for understanding.!

B.B.

You and I are good to go ----my toes are just fine----in fact I am still LMAO for tripping over my Own big feet in front of God and everyone. Providing correct information is much more important than my pride.

Respects,

TyStik

 

[Shady Smoka]

bump...
neutral + ground onto the bus bar?

Yes, they get hooked up together in the panel

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I am no electrician, but I have done many wirings in the past. Mostly industrial situations.

I want to offer just a little advice, and actual electricians may take exception to this advise, I don't know...but you can purchase Ground Fault Interrupt Circuit type breakers.
They will be like a normal breaker for your panel, by tthey will have a coiled up neutral wire that must be landed in the neutral bank, which gives the device a point of reference.
The moment it senses an imbalance in current, it trips. This is far more sensitive than the breaker itself, and it will protect a person from ever being shocked to a point of death by that circuit. It may still bite you if you go to ground when attached to the circuit, but it will protect your life.
15amp 115vac GFIC breaker is about $38 bucks at Lowes (compared to the regular 15 amp for about $9)

If we aint breathin, it's hard to take a very deep draw on a doob.

 

[cocktail frank]

you can hook up the ground and neutrals on the same bar ONLY in your main panel.
after the main, it HAS to be seperated

 

[acidnI_livE]

household wiring- white-ground, black-hot, bare-neutral.

hook the damn grounding rod to the neutral. and the blacks to where they belong and the whites likewise.

everything will work without that neutral even hooked up.

up until 20-30 years ago there wasnt even a building code that required a nuetral to be wired in to any circuit. they just grounded one main neutral coming off the breaker box to a close-by galvanized pipe. and everything els in the house frome switches to plugs to dimeers were just white and black wires.

now days all the romax you buy has a bare neutral in it and according to building code every switch and plug and anything else that gets hardwired into you house has to have the bare neutral wire hooked up to route exsessive energy to ground quickly so it doesnt decide to take the trip to ground through YOUR body.

when we say ground the neutral we mean hook it to a natural ground like a pipe or the supplied gounding bar/rod iin you bos or behind it. not to hook the netral to the white ground wire. you could but you might as well leave it unhooked if you do that.

the reason why its bare al the way through is so electicity will jump/arc to it very easlily in the event of a short.

 

[cocktail frank]

household wiring- white-ground, black-hot, bare-neutral.

hook the damn grounding rod to the neutral. and the blacks to where they belong and the whites likewise.

everything will work without that neutral even hooked up.

up until 20-30 years ago there wasnt even a building code that required a nuetral to be wired in to any circuit. they just grounded one main neutral coming off the breaker box to a close-by galvanized pipe. and everything els in the house frome switches to plugs to dimeers were just white and black wires.

now days all the romax you buy has a bare neutral in it and according to building code every switch and plug and anything else that gets hardwired into you house has to have the bare neutral wire hooked up to route exsessive energy to ground quickly so it doesnt decide to take the trip to ground through YOUR body.

when we say ground the neutral we mean hook it to a natural ground like a pipe or the supplied gounding bar/rod iin you bos or behind it. not to hook the netral to the white ground wire. you could but you might as well leave it unhooked if you do that.

the reason why its bare al the way through is so electicity will jump/arc to it very easlily in the event of a short.

now i dont get involved w/ alot of electrical questions anymore around here.
but i cant sit back and let you spread info like this.
peoples lives are in danger when you wire things wrong.
everything you stated here is completely wrong and in poor taste.
if you dont know what your speaking about, especially the technical part, please stop spreading misinfo.
your gonna get somebody killed if they heed your advice.
i can't believe that people open their mouths when they are obviously not knowing what they speak of.
i am a liscensed sparky and a state inspector, so dont bicker w/ me.
just stay out of what your obviously not schooled on.
no offense to you, but all your doing is a severe injustice to this community.

PLEASE PEOPLE, if you dont know, dont guess and post it up.
PEOPLE WHO DONT KNOW might actuallt believe the blasphemy you speak

 

[cocktail frank]

some proof for the pudding.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1535001&postcount=26

and a whole thread i did on electrical safety
please read it, everybody
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=57585&page=1&pp=15

 

[Betty's Boy]

Originally Posted by acidnI_livE
household wiring- white-ground, black-hot, bare-neutral.

Damn, what Country are we talking about..? I did'nt know they had Electrical codes in Bora Bora...? I'm sorry, I'll try to be nice. I think Acid might have been drinking....O.K. back to the thread..."Confusious say" no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answer's


does'nt say anything about electrical death's or injuries, probably somewhere between asprin and caffeine