Need some experienced help designing 10kW room

[all_is_1]

I'm currently building a 10kW room and I'm trying to decide on a few things.

1) Should I go with 600watt digital ballasts for efficiency and equal light distribution?
or
2) 1000watt regular coil ballasts cause they're "tried and true"? I've heard good things about those new futurebrite (the blue housing ones, not the first model) 600watt ballasts.

Also, I'm thinking that I'm probably going to wire the whole room to 240volts. If I do that, I'm going to buy one of those centralized light timers that can run up to 8 lights on one timer (manufactured by CAP and Greenair and numerous other companies I'm sure).

But how do you run 8000Watts through one box? All the boxes I've seen only seem to have one plug for input power and I don't understand how you can plug one box into any single circuit without blowing out the circuit.

Since the location that I'm planning on using has central air, my plan is to air cool the lights and have the room totally sealed otherwise. That way I should be able to run a CO2 generator or tank attached to a monitor/controller and have no intake or exhaust aside from the air-cooled lights.

Anyways any well-thought advice or comments from your own experience would be appreciated.

 

[Ganoderma]

A digital ballast will will save you 10% in in electrical usage.

by running them at 240v instead of 120v, that will also help you to save money, and you could actually run twice the same amount of lights at 240v than you could at 120v due to amps.

you can pull more amps on 240 then at 120

 

[wantaknow]

i would run a flip flop on that much wattage and split the room in half ,if cooling all the light together i would look at the maxairshades.com cool tubes there 10 inches in diameter and lose less lumins

 

[Ganoderma]

Thats a good point, set up two flowering rooms in your one room. so one is on when the other is off.

 

[all_is_1]

Do I have to wire the flip-flop box myself? I'm going to bring in a pro to wire everything to 240V so can I just have him wire me up a flip-flop box as well? Besides less initial cost (fewer ballasts) is there any other advantage to flip-flopping everything? The only disadvantage I see is that I'll have to water at different times and I can't have everything running at night when outdoor temps will be lower. Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[Guest]

Not tryin to be a dick or anything, but what is your skill level? If you are going into a 10kw grow, you shouldn't have to ask how to set it up. Also its hard to come up with the best options given the fact that we know nothing about the set-up.

First off about the wattage.....

At that wattage running at 240 is a must. You say you are going to wire the whole room at 240, so all you have to do is install a circuit large enough to handle the power. Now time for a lil math.... Watts = Amps * Volts so 10,000 = ? * 240

You end up with 41.6 repeating. So in order to run 10kw, you will need a breaker with at least 41.6 amps. Now you DO NOT EVER want to run something more than 80 percent of capacity, so you will need a larger circuit. Repeat, DO NOT RUN 10kw ON ANY CIRCUIT LESS THAN 53 AMPS! Most times people will wire in a 60 amp, or something like that, but this is only to be done by a professional. Again Im not trying to sound like a dick, but electricity is no joke man. Shit can kill you, or burn your house down. There is also a limit on the total amt. of amps your house is wired for, not sure but I think most are around 150 to 200.

Now that we got it covered you need at least 53 amps, how can you get them? Well depending on your situation, there are a few ways. Not knowing details about the grow op scenario doesn't help much, but you could wire a new circuit (make sure you have a feasable reason for the electrician), you could use the larger existing circuits if you aren't living in the house also.

I just noticed you said you were gonna have a pro wire the room to 240....you need to be carefull how you go about that shit also man. Electricians aren't stupid, and you don't want anyone knowin about a grow.....let alone a 10kw grow. This goes back to saying you need a feasable reason for the large circuit. Maybe you want a tanning bed in there, or you are starting up a new pottery hobby and need a kiln. Maybe the room is going to be sublet, and they want their own range? Also fyi, a flip flop box is a grower thing, and I wouldn't mention something like that to an electrician.

Moving on the the flip flop box, you can order them online. One advantage as you pointed out is the savings in initial cost, however the largest advantage is the fact that you will save half the power. The disadvantage you point out as being watering at diff. times is a bummer, but why are you doing soil with such a large scale grow? Your gonna break your back man, if you do soil (which is perfectly fine) at least set up an automated dripper system....I say this assuming you will be handwatering, because if your not handwatering then its not a disadvantage (by my crazy logic).

Some other considerations you may wish to consider is the initial power surge the fire up will cause, maybe a delayed stagger would be usefull.

Just a few Q's

how many rooms are you using?
how big is the room/rooms?
living at the grow site?
does the 10kw include pumps, fans, ect....or is that just lights? (i assume 8kw on lights, 2kw for the rest of things)
seed or clone?

As for lights, for a scale this large......look into teklights =)

It all really depends on your situation. There are things that you have the luxury to know, its all in the details. Taking into consideration all the small things make a growroom efficient. Anyone can plop bunches of lights in somewhere, but its about getting results.

now im ramblin', but yah, double decker teklights....or tripple decker! whooo hoo

 

[1TWISTEDTRUCKER]

TOO TRIV ANY LINKS TO FIND A FLIPFLOP BOX?

 

[Guest]

http://www.progressive-growth.com/proddetail.php?prod=flp-dlx

there are other sites as well

 

[1TWISTEDTRUCKER]

thx triv.that helps those bastards are pricey.o what the hell whats security worth?all is 1 thx.dude not tryn to jack ur thread.good luck w/that 10k room keep us posted.

 

[Bermyboy]

As for lights, for a scale this large......look into teklights =)

It all really depends on your situation. There are things that you have the luxury to know, its all in the details. Taking into consideration all the small things make a growroom efficient. Anyone can plop bunches of lights in somewhere, but its about getting results.

now im ramblin', but yah, double decker teklights....or tripple decker! whooo hoo

Sounds like u know what u are talking about.

 

[all_is_1]

Thanks for the considerate commentary and advice everyone.

Too Triv: Don't worry I certainly don't take offense to you asking my skill level. I suppose I somewhere in between an intermediate and a pro. Here are a few pictures from a week ago of my current 5kW organic soil grow.

super haze @ ~50 days

cotton candy at ~50 days

"old school" (locally bred) blueberry

white buffalo (aka white blitz) at 50 days

Ak-47. . . chunky

whole room in modified soma buckets

more cotton candy. . . yummy

As for Teklights I like them but the start up capital required to produce as many lumens as one an HID is too high.

The electrician is a close friend who knows what I'm doing. I wouldn't bring an unknown pro in to do something like this!

My plan is to have him wire 2 40-amp, 240volt circuits and to run either 5-1000W bulbs or 8-600W bulbs in each circuit using a CAP lighting box (link below) at each circuit.



[living at the grow site?]
I will NOT be living at the grow site. The grow site is in a large apartment; I will be living in another apartment in the same building and so will my partner. No other tenants occupy the building.
[how big is the room/rooms?]
The room size hasn't been decided yet; I have as much space I I could need lengthwise and about 20ft. width to work with. Ceilings are 10ft. high. Clones will be taken off-location and transported in. I would like to keep vegatative time short.
[seed or clone?]
I'm going to be using strictly clones for SURE!!

I couldn't agree with your statement "anyone can plop 10 lights in a room but it's about results" more. I'm getting good results with 5 lights now-depending on strain I get anywhere from 1.5-2lbs per light. I'm ready to double up. I haven't completely decided on my medium. Most likely pro-mix/coco and a drip system. I might try some "true" hydroponic system (dwc or "krusty" buckets) but I'm just not sure yet. Either way a decision will be made soon because my goal is to have this room running within the next two weeks. Peace all.

 

[Guest]

pro-mix/coco and a drip system im so close to trying something like this...open drip lines?

 

[all_is_1]

hmmm. . . If I go with the drip system I'll probably use some kind of emitter for more even moisture distribution throughout the medium.

However mrwags bubble bucket link is really motivating me to try dwc buckets cause the results are ridiculous even with organic based nutrients.

 

[Guest]

garden looks great.....if you are doing 5 k now, just design the most ideal setting for 5k since you are familiar with it...then double it!

 

[2buds]

The flip flop boxes are just double pole double throw or 3 pole double throw relays. If your electrician is comfy you could build your own for way less. With the relay the lamp cord feeds in through a common set of terminals that is distributed through 2 sets of output terminals either A or B. One set (A) is live when the coil is not energized, then when the timer cuts on it energizes the coil which throws the contacts to the other terminals (B). These can be wired so that ventilation fans and other hardware is also energized. 30 amp heavy duty relays can be found for around $12 each on the dreaded fleabay, no red flags on relays just electrical components commonly found in hvac equipment, otherwise pricey at the parts store. So go real big, 8-10 ballast, 16-20 reflectors, one hell of a power bill, whew. Good luck to you and your partners. the old style ballast seem to work fine in a flip flop, not sure about digital ballast but look into the rf intereference associated with digital ballast, ham radio operators will LOVE you with 8-10 of them running. Hate to see you get busted over radio intereference. Peace

Oh yeh, the 3 pole single throw relays work great for turning on ballast wired for 240volts, the 3 contacts lets you throw your ground/common and the 2 hots easily using a standard timer, I prefer the old mechanical pool timers hard wired in place. Alot of wiring but very safe once installed properly.

 

[bbudd]

flip-flop

flip-flop

hey 2buds-any chance of throwing on a circuit diagram on that flip-flop or at least a photo- -and thanks for the great info man

 

[all_is_1]

2buds thanks for the excellent info.

About that whole digital interference thing. . . The guys at the hydro store say that the have the ballasts placed right next to a radio with no interference and that the old digital ballasts used to cause audibel interference. . . This is not sufficient evidence that they won't cause interference with other kinds of waves to use them (especially since the spot happens to be accross the street from a large federal building and a block away from a cell phone/radio some sort of tower. However, this kind of information HAS to be publicly available, so I might just do some homework and get back to you. . . I like your suggestions for wiring but using the CAP 8a light timer only requires running one 40 amp, 240v line into 1 box and plugging up to 8 1000w lights in which seems like the easiest way to go. Peace.

 

[Bonzo]

Howdy if your going to go with digital ballasts, this place has th best warranty ive seen.

they also just got in 1k digitals but i couldnt find the warranty

scroll down the page yill you get to Lumatek 600 watt digital.

http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/items.asp?Cc=BA&iTpStatus=0&Tp=&Bc=

peace and good luck

bonz

 

[2buds]

I'll see what I can find for a diagram. If I start drawing stick art pics, it may get real confusing but let me see what I can find. I had a link to a website that offered a flip-flop kit or a parts list. Its been awhile.
Also let me say after re-reading my post that a relay wired to a ballast flip-flopping the light would NOT have a fan wired to it too. The fan flip-flop would be a seperate relay that is activated by the same timer.
As for the interference, it was an article I read about the early digital ballasts.
And yes, the pre-built unit would save you a ton of electrical work but knowing how the thing works will help you diagnose any problems you may have in the future. Good luck with your set-up.
When you get ready to set it up, set-up one light first and try out everything, better to fry one light then 8 should something go wrong. Stay safe.

 

[Joe A. Grower]

I have a 9kW operation up and running right now, so here $0.02 from someone who has actually seen the elephant. My philosophy is that you shouldn't put a single dime into a grow op unless it pays for itself in terms of increased yield or decreased labor. 'Cuz if the goon squad kicks in your door, its gone!. Remember that there are no points for the guy with the fanciest grow.

Here's a couple of tips:

-- I would avoid 600W lights for large, multi-kilowatt operations. I use 1000W HPS exclusively. Think about running all of those extra wires, hanging all of those extra lamps and finding space for all of those extra ballasts. Now think about paying twice as much for roughly the same light. To me 600's = more work, more money.


-- Use vertical lighting if at all possible. Vertically hung bulbs don't need hoods (which saves money), and work well with large plants (which lowers your plant count and saves time in jail if you get busted)


-- Screw going 240V. There really isn't any good reason to do this. Contrary to what you may hear, a light uses roughly the same power whether its wired 240V or 120V. (Did you really think the universe was going to buy you a free lunch?). By going 240V, you can no longer use many of the nice cheap goodies available for standard 120V. These timers, for instance, cost me $8 a piece. Price out your 240V timing solution and I guarantee it will cost more than $8 per light.


-- Don't buy expensive crap designed specifically for growing. You can often make less expensive hardware made for other purposes do the same job. For instance, my growroom is vented by a 1650 cfm attic fan that cost me $60. Go down to your local hydro shop and tell them you want that much ventilation for that kind of price and watch them fall over laughing.


Anyway, you get the gist of it. I've seen growers spend upwards of $5,000 to put together a pissant 2kW system because they go out and buy a bunch of fancy bullshit they don't need. I put together this 9kW room for $3,000. There's no reason you should have to spend any more than this.