Muriate of Potash (Potassium Chloride)

[guest123]

i saw a mate use some of that once , killed all his plants , heheehe , its very strong stuff , and i wouldnt use it ...
liquid potash is way more forgiving and easy to use ...
if u do a read in your gardening books , youll see which ash has the highest p and k , from memory i recall corn husk were good sources , u can find a table that will tell in many organic gardening books ..

 

[Stoney Bologna]

This is the "organic" soil section? If you want to play with chems, you might as well go hydro

I posted this in the"organic" soil section because I wanted to know what organic soil growers thought about this stuff. Every organic soil grower puts chemicals into his "organic" mix, so I think it's relevant to ask if other organic growers are using this chemical in their organic mix. You'd better tell all the organic soils growers here to go hydro now because we all use calcium magnesium carbonate(CaMg(CO3)2) at 2tbs/gal of "organic" mix.

 

[Stoney Bologna]

Oblidio,

no worries man. I wasn't stoned enough when I read it. I'm kinda hyper-sensitive to stuff like that when I haven't had my morning toke but I have had my morning coffee . I shouldn't have gotten so worked up, I'm trying to work on not overreacting to stuff.

Sorry your grow's not going as well as you hoped. Since you just flipped, you should have plenty of time to get things turned around in time. I hope your grow goes well too.

Peace

 

[Suby]

Organic Commercial standards

Phosphorus Fertilisers

Rock Phosphate-------------------------Permitted
Calcined Al Rock Phosphate(Redzlaag)----Permitted
Fibrophos-------------------------------Prohibited
Basic Slag------------------------------Restricted
Bone Meal / Meat & BoneMeals----------Restricted

Potassium Fertilisers

Fish Meals/Solutions---------------------Restricted
Muriate of Potash (KCl)------------------Prohibited
Sulphate of Potash----------------------Restricted
Sylvinite--------------------------------Restricted
Kainit-----------------------------------Restricted
MSL-K (Rock Potassium)-----------------Restricted
Kali Vinasse---------------------------- Permitted
Guano----------------------------------Restricted
Rock Potash (eg. Adularian Shale)--------Restricted
Wood Ash------------------------------Permitted

K is always a challenge to get into your soil organically, it requires a littlw more planning so it is available organically, I like to use alot of kelp meal and seaweed ferts in my teas regularly so it is availble in flowering.
If you use too much you'll hurt the microherd and possibly lockout Mg and Ca, not good at all.
As mentioned in a small dose it will be fine, you can take you organic experience to whatever level you desire, from purist to hobbyist it's mostly a philosophy, in my case sustainability and longterm soil health
Peace
Suby

 

[Stoney Bologna]

Thanks for that info Suby. Good stuff. I've been looking for a list like that. Is there a full list like that? If it's burried in the OFC thread I'll look for it. It's a long thread and I just started reading. Some of the best info on icmag is in there.

 

[Guest]

Suby and Stoney:

First, I am not an organic farmer, but i do know a little chemistry...and for reasons I will privately discuss with you, I am very familiar with "rock phosphate".

And I am not posting this to get into some argument. However, I don't understand why "rock phosphate" is permitted and "muriate of potash" is prohibited since both occur naturally in relative abundance

The following is from Wikipedia ( the emphasized parts are my doing)

In agriculture phosphate refers to one of the three primary plant nutrients, and it is a component of fertilizers. Rock phosphate is quarried from phosphate beds in sedimentary rocks. In former times it was simply crushed and used as is, but the crude form is now used only in organic farming. Normally it is chemically treated to make superphosphate, triple superphosphate, or ammonium phosphates, which have higher concentration of phosphate and are also more soluble, therefore more quickly usable by plants.

Potassium Chloride occurs "naturally" . The following is again from Wikipedia (Emphasized parts again mine)

Sylvite
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Sylvite is potassium chloride (KCl) in natural mineral form. It forms crystals in the isometric system very similar to normal rock salt, halite (NaCl). (The two are, in fact, isomorphous. (Klein and Hurlbut)) Sylvite is colorless to white with shades of yellow and red due to inclusions. It has a Mohs hardness of 2.5 and a specific gravity of 1.99. It has a refractive index of n=1.490) (Deer, et al.). Sylvite has a salty taste with a distinct bitterness.

Sylvite is one of the last evaporite minerals to precipitate out of solution. As such, it is only found in very dry saline areas. Its principle use is as a potassium fertilizer.


Any comment? Anyone?

 

[Guest]

Or would sylvite be permitted as an organic source of KCl if it were simply crushed up in its natural form....same as is done with "rock phosphate"? Or is just the KCl that comes in the red and yellow bag labeled "muriate of potash" prohibited?....since it is strictly speaking, not "natural" but "manufactured".

Who makes the rules for organic farming? Where did the chart above come from. I know there are lots of organic farmers out there. And I know they are bound to have differences of opinion on the various aspectrs of organic farming.

 

[Guest]

For the most part naturally occuring minerals are permitted even though they lack "organs". But like Subs said, it's a Philosophy; almost all of us have different opinions of what should go into "organic" feeding.

J.

 

[Stoney Bologna]

Oblidio,

I don't understand why "rock phosphate" is permitted and "muriate of potash" is prohibited since both occur naturally in relative abundance

I don't understand either, and I wish I understood the basis for the "organic" classification because there appears to be a double standard. That's a great question: Why isn't muriate of potash organic while other naturally occuring minerals such as rock phosphate are?

Who makes the rules for organic farming? Where did the chart above come from.

Ditto. I'd like to know this too.

 

[Suby]

Hey guys,

I pulled that chart from a organic fertilizer guideline intended for commercial growers in the USA.
I'd love to link it to you but It's been about 3 reinstalls on this computer since it's been in my favorites.
Google organic guidelines and you'll see that these are guidelines many farmers observe to be considered organic.

The main beef purists have with any mineral additives is tht they are basically salts and that they will accumulate carbonates in the soil which can build up in the soil and throw ph off among other things, remember that the process used to mine these elements is as important as they're chemical structure in determining whether or not they qualify to be used in an organic farming setup.
This is why I recommend kelp meal and seaweed ferts, I do cheat and use dolomite and many purist still disagree it's organic despite being on the chart.
Pot rerquires high doses of fertilizer vs. any other farmed crop so don't be shy with the worm cstings and compost too and when all else fails...cheat.


Peace
Suby

 

[Stoney Bologna]

Right on Suby! More great info. I'm curious as to how dolomite and rock phosphate made it on the list because I assume they are salts too. I wonder what is different about them compared to other salts?

 

[theFLINTSTONERS]

I'm curious as to how dolomite and rock phosphate made it on the list because I assume they are salts too. I wonder what is different about them compared to other salts?

the first thing to remember about organic "standards" is that they are NOT always logical . . . like many other things in life . . . they are political . . . see the rest of our answer below for more details . . .

Or would sylvite be permitted as an organic source of KCl if it were simply crushed up in its natural form....same as is done with "rock phosphate"? Or is just the KCl that comes in the red and yellow bag labeled "muriate of potash" prohibited?....since it is strictly speaking, not "natural" but "manufactured".

that probably would make a difference . . . pure mined minerals that have not been altered often do qualify as organic (at least in some venues) . . .

Who makes the rules for organic farming? Where did the chart above come from. I know there are lots of organic farmers out there. And I know they are bound to have differences of opinion on the various aspectrs of organic farming.

different countries have different rules for organic farming . . . and Europe's standards are significantly different than those commonly found in North America . . . causing the issue to become even cloudier . . .

in the U.S. a political body named O.M.R.I is the group that oversees organic standards . . . here's a little quote from their website . . .

The Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) is a national nonprofit organization that determines which input products are allowed for use in organic production and processing. OMRI Listed—or approved—products may be used on operations that are certified organic under the USDA National Organic Program.

in theory all this sounds good . . . and it's not all bad . . .

but there are problems . . .

for instance we also find the following in their own description . . .

OMRI's funding comes from a variety of sources, including sales of publications, grants, donations, and subscriptions. Mainly, however, the organization generates income through fees collected for the review of products intended for use in organic production or processing. Also, OMRI operates an organic seed information service to help growers find organic seeds.

and there's one of the big catches . . .

in order to get your fertilizer certified as "organic" by O.M.R.I. . . . you have to pay them to do the testing . . . this poses significant problems for smaller fertilizer manufacturers and often keeps them from directly competing with competitors that are larger . . . obviously larger firms have a much greater ability to pay to have their products "certified" . . .

 

[Guest]

All "organics" are natural but not all naturals are "organic".

J.

 

[Suby]

Hey All,

Agreed OMRI is just another glitch in getting people interested in organic IMHO.
Labels don't make for sweey berries or tasty herb.
Use a healthy and alive soil to grow great plants.

 

[Skunkface]

Lets get this thread back on track.

I actually have used muriate of potash a few times in my vegetable garden. I sprinkle a couple handfuls of the muriate and dolomite over my beds and stir it in with some manure. Cant say it improves anything but it doesnt hurt!

One thing it says on the package i have is that roots can be damaged in direct contact with the muriate.. so it might be a little safer as a top dressing or mixed into the top 2 inches of soil.

It's too hot for me (0-0-60) n i dont use it in my organic soil mix for herb. I do however still throw a sprinkle of it out in my vegetable garden in the spring.

 

[theFLINTSTONERS]

Lets get this thread back on track.

ok . . .

I actually have used muriate of potash a few times in my vegetable garden. I sprinkle a couple handfuls of the muriate and dolomite over my beds and stir it in with some manure. Cant say it improves anything but it doesnt hurt!

some individuals might disagree . . .

the chlorine in muriate of potash is really the problem . . . at least in our minds . . . chlorine kills live/living things . . . even in minute amounts it can have a negative impact on microbes . . .

we did personally test this to an extent . . . adding small amounts of muriate of potash to a guano tea we had brewing . . . we can report it did significantly reduce obvious signs of microbial life . . . we noticed a significant decrease in the foamy "head" produced by a tea where muriate of potash had been added . . .

it's also said to have a negative impact on soil structure by some sources . . . which makes sense to us if it harms microbial life . . .

One thing it says on the package i have is that roots can be damaged in direct contact with the muriate.. so it might be a little safer as a top dressing or mixed into the top 2 inches of soil.

It's too hot for me (0-0-60) n i dont use it in my organic soil mix for herb. I do however still throw a sprinkle of it out in my vegetable garden in the spring.

when looking for a mineral source of potassium . . .

one alternative choice would be what's commonly known as sulfate of potash . . . a pure mined mineral which does qualify for OMRI certification if sourced as a pure mined mineral . . .

another preferred alternative would be sul-po-mag . . . also known as K-Mag . . . we also believe this can be found as a pure mined mineral (langbeinite) which should also qualify for those wanting the OMRI seal of approval . . . obviously this supplies sulfur and magnesium in addition to potassium . . .

 

[Suby]

Christ it is a blessing having you birds back.
Amen.

 

[theFLINTSTONERS]

Christ it is a blessing having you birds back.
Amen.

awwww geee thanks for the kind words . . .

we're just learning and growing ourselves . . . and it's a pleasure to pass good information on to an interested audience . . .

 

[MrBreeze911]

So can I use langbeinite and then use water soluble calcium and then use wood ash for potassium, and then use compost and rock dust, and then use fish and kelp blend for nitrogen, and then use aact, mykoz, and biostimulant organic acids and molasses for the microherd?this is in a peat perlite or verm based mix...

ok . . .



some individuals might disagree . . .

the chlorine in muriate of potash is really the problem . . . at least in our minds . . . chlorine kills live/living things . . . even in minute amounts it can have a negative impact on microbes . . .

we did personally test this to an extent . . . adding small amounts of muriate of potash to a guano tea we had brewing . . . we can report it did significantly reduce obvious signs of microbial life . . . we noticed a significant decrease in the foamy "head" produced by a tea where muriate of potash had been added . . .

it's also said to have a negative impact on soil structure by some sources . . . which makes sense to us if it harms microbial life . . .





when looking for a mineral source of potassium . . .

one alternative choice would be what's commonly known as sulfate of potash . . . a pure mined mineral which does qualify for OMRI certification if sourced as a pure mined mineral . . .

another preferred alternative would be sul-po-mag . . . also known as K-Mag . . . we also believe this can be found as a pure mined mineral (langbeinite) which should also qualify for those wanting the OMRI seal of approval . . . obviously this supplies sulfur and magnesium in addition to potassium . . .

And then use

 

[Three Berries]

I use the langbeinite as a top dressing and a couple tablespoons in new soil. I use Cl based Ca and Mg too. And wood ash.

Be careful with wood ash as if using old trees or trees from urban areas as they pick up lead. Generally wood ash is 10% K and 30% Ca. I burn white ash that is 20 years old and collect the ash.

Be careful adding sulfates to a solution with Ca++ as it will strip and fall out of solution the Ca, if the pH is off. Add the Ca++ last.