Mosaic virus and Cannabis, Chem D etc...

[funkfingers]

Here's a Purple Pakistani's from ace that shows heavy variegation..This was the only plant out of the pack of seeds that did this the others definitely did not have this much variegation.. IMo this looks very similar to all the supposed TMV people claim to have infecting their plants

also a good read on TMV, from what I gather it cannot be transmitted via seed, at least in the embryo itself..
http://www.au.poznan.pl/ptfit/pdf/PP38a/PP38_103-106.pdf

 

[accessndx]

I'm officially going to call bullshit on the whole TMV debacle. I've seen the same presentation on my plants......as you said, the visual appearance of this is diminished after rapid growth. I've also mentioned previously that if you blast her with Cal/Mg heavily during veg, and then throughout flowering....you'll get alot less of that.

Bottom line: I think she's a nutrient whore. It would be impossible to contain the virus in a shared reservoir, it would be equally infectious using the same scissors......although I'm sure some other plants must have resistance to this virus (if it is indeed infected).
She's got to have some sort of genetics that promotes this type of development. That being said.....it has never affected her growth markedly, nor has it impacted her with regards to potency and flavor. When someone says they've got the cut, I just tell them she's a high maint. broad that will do fine with a bit of extra TLC.

Plus: Plants do in fact have immune systems and a response to bacteria, mold and viruses. I'm not sure that the plants bred from Chem D wouldn't have some sort of inborn immunity.....

If you've got her, I wouldn't freak out. I saw this sort of variation appear with my Paradise Seeds: Ice Cream......right from bean. I also saw it right from bean with the strain: Opium (same breeder). Don't believe the internet TMV hype!

 

[Crazy Composer]

I think Chem D's variegation is a genetic abnormality, not certain, but that's what I think it is.

I was once a wholesale supervisor at one of America's largest plant nurseries... where I was privy to a fact or two about plants... One fact that may help in this argument pertains to how variegated nursery plants are found, collected and propagated so that they remain variegated.

Here is a for instance... Let's say you have 10,000 spirea plants grown from seed, all are expected to be the regular green color, however, one of them has a single branch with a pretty variegation. If you take a clone from that variegated branch, all the clones from that point on will be variegated to some degree. So I believe this may very well be what happened with Chem D. The original cut was taken from a branch that had this tendency... the kicker is... this tendency may not have even shown up for several generations because it could have been a trait that only showed with time (genetic maturity).

I say this with a degree of certainty, however, unless someone has the clone's dna tested and somehow can confirm or deny the presence of TMV... no one can be sure.

What I AM sure of is... the condition causes some leaf necrosis, which I care not at all about. Also, I have NEVER seen it spread to another plant, and the way TMV attacks tobacco leaves seems COMPLETELY different from the patterns of variegation showing up on Chem D.

cc

 

[F_T_P!]

I'm officially going to call bullshit on the whole TMV debacle. I've seen the same presentation on my plants......as you said, the visual appearance of this is diminished after rapid growth. I've also mentioned previously that if you blast her with Cal/Mg heavily during veg, and then throughout flowering....you'll get alot less of that.

Bottom line: I think she's a nutrient whore. It would be impossible to contain the virus in a shared reservoir, it would be equally infectious using the same scissors......although I'm sure some other plants must have resistance to this virus (if it is indeed infected).
She's got to have some sort of genetics that promotes this type of development. That being said.....it has never affected her growth markedly, nor has it impacted her with regards to potency and flavor. When someone says they've got the cut, I just tell them she's a high maint. broad that will do fine with a bit of extra TLC.

Plus: Plants do in fact have immune systems and a response to bacteria, mold and viruses. I'm not sure that the plants bred from Chem D wouldn't have some sort of inborn immunity.....

If you've got her, I wouldn't freak out. I saw this sort of variation appear with my Paradise Seeds: Ice Cream......right from bean. I also saw it right from bean with the strain: Opium (same breeder). Don't believe the internet TMV hype!

I agree, almost every strain I grow shows some sort of weird growth in early veg and/or when I have nutrient issues that look like TMV. When ever I fix the nutrient issue or let the plant grow up, the weird leaves go away and everything is normal.

 

[BlueberryLovr]

Either that or just a minor pest issue. I've experienced what FTP described and a case of whiteflies, both of which presented symptoms closely resembling TMV. Too many people cry "TMV!!" when it really is just feed and/or environmental problems. Fix them and plants bounce back.

 

[cosmicparticle]

...some interesting information here.


i don't know what this is, but i have searched a bit online and all the info that i found seems to indicate that tmv in edible fruiting flowers such as berries and cannabis is not harmful to human health...that is the most important thing IMHO. more so than how its growth is affected.


Killer Chemdog

another pic from the same KillerChem plant

not only was the plant healthy, she offered up some of the finest meds ive had to date. may she r.i.p.

*i should also note that she was the only girl of all the KC's to show this pattern. i personally found it a bit interesting ad saw it to be a just another trait that set her apart from the rest.

 

[AOD2012]

i think that i may have this, i am going to snap some pics tomorow before lights go on and post them up.

 

[machinehead83]

I have now read several of these threads on TMV. Being a Ph.D. in Immunology, I decided to use a modern method, not guessing, not looking at leaves (useless!!!), and ACTUALLY TESTING for the virus using ELISA assay for TMV. I took leaves from the sickest looking plants wth the most damage to the leaves. The leaves turn yellowish/brownish and become very brittle along with the leaf stem. What I found was NO TMV in plants that look the same as what I've seen in all these threads. I ran the test many times on several parts of the plants and always came back negative. To make sure the test worked properly (not trusting the built in control), I used purified TMV antigen (this is what the test detects in the plant) and found the test worked properly and there was NO TMV!!!!

A word of caution to all of you, ANYTHING can make the plants look like they are infected with a virus, nutrients, temp, bad water, etc... The ONLY WAY TO KNOW YOU HAVE A VIRUS IS TO TEST FOR IT DIRECTLY!!!!! Can any of you look at a person who is sick and tell what virus or bacteria or anything else for that matter and KNOW what they have? If you can you must have magic since this is IMPOSSIBLE! The only way to tell what disease that a plant or animal has is to TEST for it SPECIFICALLY! Stop trying guess and do the test!

 

[spurr]

No offense intended machinehead83, but your post does not seem like that of a PhD. I feel that way because of your excessive use of caps, exclamation points and assuming no one's plants can have TMV if your plants did not have the virus. Can you please elaborate on how you tested your plants, that is, did you use 'Enzyme-Linked Immunosorbent Assay' (ELISA) test in a lab?

I have been interested in the "Simple pathogen Flashkit" made for laypersons to test for various plant viruses, such as TMV (link).

Flashkit® TMV
Acronym: ToMV Synonym: Lycopersicum virus 1
Like other tobamoviruses, ToMV is spread by contact with contaminated equipment or other contact. No insect vector is known. Symptoms can include mottle or mosaic or necrosis of stems, petioles, leaves or fruit. Many solanaceous plants are susceptible, including tomato, pepper, and tobacco

I for one made no claims about TMV in cannabis, and it seems most (all?) people posting in this thread that think their plants may have TMV are not making definitive claims. I know at least the OP is not.

 

[spurr]

@ all,

If you want to spend $305 USD you can use the quantitative Double Antibody Sandwich (DAS) ELISA test for TMV:

https://orders.agdia.com/InventoryD.asp?loc=IN&collection=PSA 57400&attribute_Size=288

Intended Use:

This ELISA test is a qualitative seriological assay for detection of Tobacco mosaic virus (TMV) in crops such as vegetable, fruit, and ornamentals. Tobacco mosaic virus is an extremely stable virus and can easily infect adjacent plants and contaminate all kinds of surfaces, such as benches, pots, and tools.

This test detects a variety of viruses from the tobamovirus group including Tobacco mosaic virus-common strain (TMV-c), Tomato mosaic virus (ToMV), and Sunn hemp mosaic virus (SHMV). This broadly reacting TMV assay is recommended whenever you wish to test for the presence of TMV without needing to distinguish TMV-c from other tobamoviruses. This test, however, is not a tobamovirus group test. For example, it does not react with Ribgrass mosaic virus.

ELISA: Complete Kit
PSA 57400/0288

Includes:

• Antibody-coated 96-well microtiter plates
• Alkaline phosphatase enzyme conjugate
• ECI buffer, 5X concentrate
• PNP substrate tablets, 5 mg each
• PNP substrate buffer, 5X concentrate
• Positive control
• PBST wash buffer, 20X concentrate, 50 ml
• Tween-20
• General extract buffer, GEB

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks all for the contributions.

machinehead - did you test the chem D clone? - that is one that has long been reputed to have the virus. someone even told me that chemdog (the man who found the cut) had it tested positive for TMV - but as i said in the first post the leaf trait looks like it could be a genetic variegation - just as others have said, most notably CC, in this thread.

also machinehead did you just test for Tobacco Mosaic Virus? would the test show positive for any type of mosaic virus? ive read that the virus cannabis gets may not be TMV but one of the many other types of MV

none of this is particularly scientific i know. this thread is about getting to the truth behind what has become 'urban gospel' about chem D - and cannabis in general. i feel somewhere out there someone knows a definitive answer.

certainly i would agree that many symptoms that folk put down to TMV are probably a more 'mundane' problem.

VG

 

[compost]

I agree with a lot of TMV actually being nute/ph problems. I had a mom that was doing fine and realized she was a bit to root bound in her 5 gallon bucket. I gave her a good dosage of some fox farm granular and watered it in. 2 days later all new leaf growth was contorted like a lot of the TMV pictures in the other thread. I flushed her out and a few days later growth was back to normal and I never saw a problem again.

I also believe there is people who have the virus and are fighting it. What I am curious about is the seed part. I had some seeds that were GHS himalayan gold. Every single one of them have grown wierd contorted leaves and were around all the other plants. None of the other plants seem to have the problem. I ran all three different seeds two separate times and had the same results.

I am curious if its not TMV being passed from seedling but rather a plant with a susceptibility for leaf variations or batch of seeds that is extremely sensitive to nute/PH changes. With the new seed your soil is 7.0 ph and you give it 6.7ph water. All the other plants are fine because they can handle .5ph swings with little or no ill effects. The seeds that are sensitive on the other hand can't handle even minor swings in PH/nutes and start distorting with curved leafs and chunks missing.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[machinehead83]

Since I'm not publishing in a journal, not being reviewed by my peers in Immunology/Pathology, I felt there was no worry about someone being so critical of my writing. Obviosly your reading skills aren't up to par since you asked if I used the ELISA by spelling out what the initials stood for and it is clearly stated in my post. YES, I used the ELISA (many of which I've developed for human studies), yes I even used the one from Agdia company that was a combination of several viruses that are the most common found. All tests were negative. I will state it again, you cannot determine whether a virus is the cause of problems without quantitative testing. The antigen present on TMV that the assay detects is one that is common to many TMV subtypes. By the way, I've had my Ph.D. for 14 years, spent the last 25 years of my life in immunology and pathology and the comment about my writing on a marijuana website is absurd and clearly a jab at me. I suggest you think more about the problem with your plants and less about trying to be critical about someone who knows what they are talking about as opposed to someone who copies and pastes a section of info from the Agdia company site. I've got 15 patents on ELISA assays in humans and many others in other species along with my own laboratory that I built and own. Have a nice day.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi machinehead, i think you are getting me mixed up with another poster. my plants are doing fine - i was just interested in getting to the bottom of the chemD / mosaic virus rumour. i was gifted the cut and it is a characteristic of most if not all cuts of Chem D

the further questions i wanted to ask you are at the top of this page

thanks,
VG

 

[trichrider]

whether or not TMV is present in my grow is unimportant to me, especially since it is so difficult to diagnose and/or treat.
not saying this is the suspected TMV, but am confounded by what it may be...


six of eight girls have this speckled leaf surface, with the underside of the leaf having black spots that appear to be tar balls (lack of better description).
does not appear to affect vigor, but in several plants the new growth is crisp and dry and curling...


this is the first time i've tried to flower in 1 gal. milk cartons, so the curling and drying may be a water issue...just that.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Hey techrider, on first look, your leaves look like spider mite damage. Tarballs on undersides?

 

[420247]

somatic mutation

plant chimera

variegated-–adjective
1. varied in appearance or color; marked with patches or spots of different colors.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Chimera

In modern botanical usage a chimera is a plant consisting of two or more genetically distinct kinds of cells. Chimeras can arise either by a mutation in a cell in some part of the plant where cells divide or by bringing together two different plants so that their cells multiply side by side to produce a single individual. They are studied not only because they are interesting freaks or ornamental, but also because they help in the understanding of many of the developmental features of plants that would otherwise be difficult to investigate.

The first type of chimera to be used in this way resulted from grafting. Occasionally a bud forms at the junction of the scion and stock incorporating cells from both, and it sometimes happens that the cells arrange themselves so that shoots derived from the bud will contain cells from both plants forever.

Flowering plants have growing points (apical meristems) where the outer cells are arranged in layers parallel to the surface. This periclinal layering is due to the fact that the outer cells divide only anticlinally, that is, by walls perpendicular to the surface of the growing point. In many plants there are two such tunica layers and, because cell divisions are confined to the anticlinal planes, each layer remains discrete from the other and from the underlying nonlayered tissue called the corpus. The epidermis of leaves, stems, and petals is derived from the outer layer of the growing point. See Apical meristem

With a periclinal chimera it is possible to trace into stems, leaves, and flowers which tissues are derived from each layer in the growing point. For leaves, this can also be done with variegated chimeras where the genetic difference between the cells rests in the plastids resulting from mutation whose effect is to prevent the synthesis of chlorophyll. Tracts of cells whose plastids lack this pigment appear white or yellow. A common form of variegated chimera has leaves with white margins and a green center (see illustration). The white margin is derived from the second layer of the tunica, and the green center is derived from inner cells of the growing point. The white leaf tissue overlies the green in the center of the leaf, but does not mask the green color. Chimeras with green leaf margins and white centers are usually due to a genetically green tunica proliferating abnormally at the leaf margin in an otherwise white leaf.

Since the somatic mutation that initiates chimeras would normally occur in a single cell of a growing point or embryo, it often happens that it is propagated into a tract of mutant cells to form a sector of the plant. If the mutation resulted in a failure to form green pigment, the tract would be seen as a white stripe. Such chimeras are called sectorial, but they are normally unstable because there is no mechanism to isolate the mutant sector and, in the flux that occurs in a meristem of growing and dividing cells, one or other of the two sorts of cells takes over its self-perpetuating layer in the growing point. The sectorial chimera therefore becomes nonchimerical or else a periclinal chimera.

However, in one class of chimera an isolating mechanism can stabilize the sectorial arrangement. This propagates stripes of mutant tissue into the shoot, but because the tunica and corpus are discrete from each other, the plant is not fully sectored and is called a mericlinal chimera. Many chimeras of this type have a single tunica layer; those with green and white stripes in the leaves have the mutant cells in sectors of the corpus. They are always plants with leaves in two ranks, and consequently the lateral growth of the growing point occurs by cell expansion only in the plane connecting alternate leaves. This results in the longitudinal divisions of the corpus cells being confined to planes at right angles to the plane containing the leaves. A mutation in one cell therefore can result in a vertical sheet of mutant cells which, in the case of plastid defect, manifests itself as a white stripe in every future leaf.

The growing points of roots may also become chimerical, but in roots there is no mechanism to isolate genetically different tissues as there is in shoots, and so chimeras are unstable.

Since the general acceptance of the existence of organisms with genetically diverse cells, many cultivated plants have been found to be chimeras. Flecks of color often indicate the chimerical nature of such plants. Color changes in potato tubers occur similarly because the plants are periclinal chimeras. See Somatic cell genetics

[EDIT]

C4 from Chimera Seeds

 

[VerdantGreen]

tricrider, the leaf spots look like sap sucking insect damage - are you sure the black spots under the leaf arent some kind of insect like mites or similar (sorry if you've already discounted that possibility) the spots could also be insect eggs or insect shit (for want of a better word). leaf miners or whitefly is another possibility

the leaf curling looks looks like a symptom of too much nutes - most people think clawing is down to excess N but i suspect P and even K may cause this problem too. again - thats a pretty obvious suggestion so sorry if you have discounted that too

VG

 

[trichrider]

no spider mites, thanks george.
do have a few gnats but not to cause this kind of damage to the leaf. they may be vectors but not the cause of the spots.
the spots are necrotic and on the underside of the leaf there are black spots mirroring the necrosis. used a 100X handheld to peruse them, but am lacking photos.
and thanks VG, i'm notoriously stingy with nutes, i use fish emulsion for vegging so its difficult to overfeed them...

 

[machinehead83]

hi machinehead, i think you are getting me mixed up with another poster. my plants are doing fine - i was just interested in getting to the bottom of the chemD / mosaic virus rumour. i was gifted the cut and it is a characteristic of most if not all cuts of Chem D

the further questions i wanted to ask you are at the top of this page

thanks,
VG

Hey...sorry, that response was for "Spur" who decided to insult me rather than ask questions.

I have not tested Chem D as I don't have that strain but have tested the following;

Lemon Skunk (GH)
Bubba Kush (Dr. Greenthumb)
Hawaiin Snow (GH)
Blueberry (Paridise)
Hashberry (Mandalla)
Endless Sky (Dr. Greenthumb)
Cheese (GH)
White Rhino (GH)
JJ gold (Dr. Greenthumb)

as well as several F1 Hybrids of the above. NONE were positive but all were exhibiting symptoms described and pictured in the TMV threads on this site. One thread showed normal variations in color and leaf geometry but this person was claiming they were all examples of TMV infection without performing a single test for virus. To do this has probably caused many on this site to destroy plants and gut grow facilities NEEDLESSLY! Unless you have a positive test showing the presence of virus, you CANNOT conclude that there is a TMV infection or any other plant virus for that matter.

The ELISA I used was from Agadia and covered the most commonly tested viruses in agriculture. "Spur" listed the test when he insulted me and questioned my having a Ph.D. because I used "many exclaimations, caps, etc... I guess he thinks all Ph.D.'s must use perfect scientific writing for a pot website as if I were to be reviewed by my peers in immunology. Writing scientific papers takes up most of my life and I prefer not to write in that strict style on a marijuana website or in regular life for that matter.