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Misbehaving Outdoor Clone
- Thread starter PDX Dopesmoker
- Start date
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
I clearly have a pretty large knowledge gap about neem/aza that I didn't know was there before. So the stuff I sprayed was pretty much just some oil to smother the little things and the soap was there to help the oil spread out, but the residue of that spray is not going to help me out with any future problems because there was no "kill chemical" in it, is that correct?
Thanks for helping me out with my problem, even though that plant didn't make it my final harvest probably won't be negatively impacted, because the spot I grow at outdoors is size limited. I have a lot more culling planned over the next few weeks as I start to see more preflowers, so I think getting rid of the Typhoid Mary was the safe thing to do in this case. The thought didn't even didn't cross mind until someone mentioned it in here, so that was really helpful too. Hopefully my other plants didn't get cooties from that clone. Seems like odds are they did though. I'll survey them at close range pretty soon and see what kind of little critters are there and decide about going to get some decent spray.
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
I don't actually get to see them under the scope. My camera takes pretty kick ass macro photos so I just use that, take a whole bunch of photos of a wide range of areas and look at them later.
Whatever was photographed on that plant has subsequently been uprooted and hurled down a 50' plummet to a near certain demise in the alleyway next to my house, I hope they're no longer moving and if they are I hope they can't climb a 50' wall.
OregonBorn
Active member
Well, yes and no. The big bug killer in raw Neem is aza, but raw and refined neem oil has other ingredients that make life tough for bugs and PM. Neem seed oil is a rather deep blend of many things, some of which they still do not know the full action of. It also retains some of the smell that repels bugs. But you would likely get nearly the same if not identical effects from using horticultural mineral oil (ag oil) as with refined neem oil. Oil sprays are great for killing and preventing PM for a couple weeks out. It also kills insects and mites, and their eggs. Hence the same, "Triple Action". They are great for cleaning up light infections of mites, whitefly, and thrips as well. Some growers in Humboldt that I know spray with oil every 2 weeks as a prevent defense, soaking the entire plants. The added advantage of oils and soaps is that the action of them does not allow for immunity over time. Mites can and will develop immunity to Aza and Avid over time, so that is why they recommend rotating their diet.
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
Thanks again, I just got done looking over 120 macro photos from all over all of my plants & didn't spot a single mite. Whatever is in that refined neem product seems to be doing the trick. I'll probably apply what I have left of it as a preventative measure sometime next week.
Here is a clean looking survey photo:
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
I think I found something in one of my photos, looks like an egg or some kind of larva on the underside of a leaf
This bit has all sorts of spider mite damage, but nobody's home
Another questionable item, but too small (full resolution in lower right)
Clean area
This wrinkly bit looked suspicious but seems OK
This bit has all sorts of spider mite damage, but nobody's home
Another questionable item, but too small (full resolution in lower right)
Clean area
This wrinkly bit looked suspicious but seems OK
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
This thing is the other troublemaker I have. Its from seed and as you can see I let it become potbound and probably potassium and nitrogen deficient. I just transplanted it into about a 4 gallon container so it should perk up soon hopefully. Its flat because it fits into the space on my roof better that way
OregonBorn
Active member
Those white round nodules look like spider mite mite eggs to me. Neem oil contact spraying will kill them by smothering them though. Another advantage of oils and soap sprays is that they kill all states of nymphs, adults, and eggs. A lot of systemic sprays will not kill the eggs on contact and will only kill nymps and adults.
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
Thanks, hopefully those eggs are dead. I guess I should have made note of what spot was what picture so I could go back and check on how things are progressing. I also realized that because I have preexisting spider mite damage its going to make seeing any new damage more difficult.
OregonBorn
Active member
This is true. But you will remember a lot of the damaged leaves and pretty soon the sun leaves will turn yellow and fall off. I recommend burning any sun/fan leaves to get rid of any potential hibernating female mites and any eggs that are viable and that have not hatched. Once infected, the potential for re-infection is high. So continue the spray regime. Do not let up on these critters. They are voracious.
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
Here is an update: The hemp russet mite infection spread to my entire garden. The plant in post #47 was the next worst infected and I think the early signs of infection might be visible in that picture. About 1/3 of my plants had to be culled because they were beyond saving. 90% of the remaining plants ended up needing heavy defoliation and trimming to get rid of the worst afflicted parts. After spraying fake neem I sprayed real neem then sulphur then diluted ethanol then lemon juice. None had conclusive effects on the russet mites although I think the ethanol and lemon juice were at least partially effective. Spider mites were gone after I spray the initial clarified neem extract. Spider mites are total sissies compared to russets. Last Monday night I gave my remaining plants a diatomaceous earth dust bath and that really seems to have made a big difference. I'm not finding russets in photos of the top side of the plant or on the new growth, but I don't have a real dust sprayer so underneath the leaves didn't get much applied to it and I think I'm still finding them underneath the older foliage.
Here is a photo underneath, there are two visible on that vein that runs vertically down the left side of the image.
On the top sides, even on leaves that show clear signs of damage, I'm not finding them. The white powder is the diatomaceous earth.
Here is a photo underneath, there are two visible on that vein that runs vertically down the left side of the image.
On the top sides, even on leaves that show clear signs of damage, I'm not finding them. The white powder is the diatomaceous earth.
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PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
For comparison, here is some of what I was finding about 2-3 weeks ago
OregonBorn
Active member
Well, as a rule of thumb I inspect and then quarantine and spray every MJ plant that comes onto my property with neem. If they are suspect I also spray with Avid. I have yet to have a mite outbreak. But I am pre-emptive. And I nuke 'em. I also spray any surrounding areas and potential mite host plants. On hard surfaces I also use Talstar, which has a very high knock-down rate for mites.
Spider mites are anything but sissies, and will raise absolute havoc if they are not controlled. Hemp/russet mites and broad/cyclamen mites have become more of an issue in commercial growing latelty though. They can be harder to control because they are lot smaller than spider mites and often times go undetected longer. Their small size also means that they have to be sprayed with more persistence and with more complete and better coverage to get to them. Water has to be made 'wetter' by soaps to drown them. Also as I have preached here, spray first and ask questions later. He who hesitates, gets eaten.
Spider mites are anything but sissies, and will raise absolute havoc if they are not controlled. Hemp/russet mites and broad/cyclamen mites have become more of an issue in commercial growing latelty though. They can be harder to control because they are lot smaller than spider mites and often times go undetected longer. Their small size also means that they have to be sprayed with more persistence and with more complete and better coverage to get to them. Water has to be made 'wetter' by soaps to drown them. Also as I have preached here, spray first and ask questions later. He who hesitates, gets eaten.
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
Yes, I made a mistake taking a clone and not quarantining it. Good advice I've read many times, but this is the first time I've been bitten like that. Lesson learned the hard way. Thanks a ton for all of your assistance and advice. We've been having a lot of hot weather lately and I'm not seeing recurrence of the same russet mite symptoms I was seeing before. I applied another diatomaceous earth dust layer last night because I have all this new growth that grew out since I dusted 6 days ago and I figure the surviving russets will congregate there. Hope I don't have to do that again because the flowers are staring to get big and complex enough that rinsing out the dust later on could be a problem, but we have a hell of a weather forecast in my zip code right now, 90+ºF out to the middle of September and I guess that favors a recovery of the russets if I didn't do a good enough job on them.
I have a few male plants that I treated too and I tried rinsing them off to see how much of the DE I could get rid of because I was worried I was going to be stuck smoking dusty buds. Diatomaceous earth seem to rinse off flowering male plants with a mister pretty easily.
Those are some awesome pictures! Sounds like you got it under control now, but if it were me I would start by strategically applying some tanglefoot and snip the most infested tips off. Then I'd hit them with a contact insecticide, followed by something like azasol, repeat the contact insecticide 3 days later, and subsequently follow up with two predatory mites, one for soil, and another for foliage. I'd also feed extra well, and meanwhile address any environmental factors that could be contributing to the problem.
Good luck!
Good luck!
OregonBorn
Active member
I use a 30x scope to look for mites. I looked on my leaves a few days ago and saw some spots, but they turned out to be ash fall on the plants in the GH. I will use refined neem on a continuing basis. Spider mites love this kind of endless heat, but you do not want to spray oils above 80F or you can get leaf burn. Apply in the evening when it cools, wait for a cooler day to spray, or/and as I approach harvest, I use a Jorge Cervantes trick of mixing: 1 cup of sugar in a cup of water, and adding 1 cup of Hydrogen Peroxide, and putting all that into a gallon container and topping it up with water, and spraying the holy crap out of the plants. Seems odd, but the sugar kills mites. Also the H2O2 kills mites. I have seen the results on mite infested plants, and this spray is very effective. The H2O2 just turns into water after giving off an oxygen atom (which acts as a bleaching agent; bees use H2O2 and that is what keeps honey fresh virtually forever). The sugar is used by the plant or is washed off when I harvest (I dip my buds in water after harvesting to rinse off the dust and ash and bird/bug crap and any remaining sugar). I use 3% Walmart Hydrogen Peroxide for this, and granulated sugar. You can use molasses instead of sugar, but I have found that to be more messy. Any sugar drippings are sucked up by the fungal mass in the soil. Its about as safe a spray as you can use, and I only use gloves to keep my hands from getting sugary and sticky. It is virtually non-toxic. I am not sure if this spray is effective for mite eggs though? I re-apply in 3 days and leave out the sugar the second time, as the leaves will have a lot of sugar still on them that will re-dissolve. I am not sure about mite resistance to this spray either. Likely not. They cannot build resistance to soap or oil sprays and those sprays both kill eggs and all stages of mites on contact.
Also the sugar/H2O2 spray is effective for PM, and that is what I used it for originally in late harvest for a PM outbreak on my GDP. GDP is notorious for getting PM. Simple trick to save plants from PM. I have read where people toss their plants for PM outbreaks. Sad, as that is pretty easy to deal with and control. Refined neem oil also works on PM very well at a 1% solution rate.
Also the sugar/H2O2 spray is effective for PM, and that is what I used it for originally in late harvest for a PM outbreak on my GDP. GDP is notorious for getting PM. Simple trick to save plants from PM. I have read where people toss their plants for PM outbreaks. Sad, as that is pretty easy to deal with and control. Refined neem oil also works on PM very well at a 1% solution rate.
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OregonBorn
Active member
I also use Tanglefoot at the base of the plants, as (again, according to Jorge) spider mites will run to the bottom of a plant if they are distressed, and they can move fast. Supposedly if they are blocked they will then run to the top of the plant. Tanglefoot is a sticky substance that traps bugs, including ants, aphids, mites, and other types of insects. As an added Tanglefoot idea, I am thinking of attaching small sticks to the ends of my colas with green stretch tie, and applying Tanglefoot to the sticks. That way if there are mites and they get distressed, they will head to the bottom of the plant and if they are blocked there, they will climb to the tops and be trapped in stickum. Also when spraying the sugar/H2O2 solution on plants, that may attract sugar ants. So the Tanglefoot will keep them from getting to the sugar. If you see any ants on your plants, that is always a bad sign. Ants farm other bugs, like aphids and scale. Tanglefoot prevents ants from farming your plants as well.
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